McGwire's return

K-Town · October 4, 2005

And you think that those Cardinal fans were out of grasp with reality??

Yes, that's it exactly.

BTW, I was not comparing steroid using to being a rapist, because that is not a valid comparison. I was merely making a statement to illustrate how maniacal the Cardinal fans were about McGwire. I believe that statement too.

The next day, the Post-Dispatch had a full page photo of McGuyver, uh, I mean McGwire in his follow-through after hitting his record-breaking home run on the front page. It was the front page, the whole front page, not the sports page, but the front page (you know where normally an article about a presidential impeachment hearing would be). It had St. Louis Post-Dispatch across the top, and then the picture all the way to the bottom, and across the bottom of the photo, in 1.5 inch red lettering was: JUBILATION!

:shock: I was absolutely stunned. I guess I shouldn't have been. That paper is such a rag. It ranks beside the Sun-Times in terms of journalistic abuse. They just fed the frenzy though - it sold papers. I threw the paper away, but my wife picked it out of the dust bin, and said it might be worth some money some day. Good point. We still have it....I should scan it in and post it on this thread.

Anyhoo, my point is that it is a game. The greatest game, IMO, but still just a game. The players are people, not gods.

To make these things out to be more than that is completely out of touch with reality.

Yet another example of out out of hand it was that summer.

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan. That doesn't make Cardinal fans wrong. And if you want to read about the impeachment without turning the page, then I suggest you vacation somewhere besides St. Louis in the summertime.

You're right, it IS a game, played by human beings. That's why this thread is a little bit absurd. McGwire has given millions of dollars to charity, brought alot of joy to St. Louis, been a great P.R. rep for St. Louis, speaks highly of the game and the fans of St. Louis, clearly loves his family and spending time with them............. and yet he should be booed because he "might have" tampered with the integrity of the game....... a GAME, mind you, by using steroids???

If it's just a game, why are you getting so worked up over our comments?

I'm not "worked up" at all.

gus_dog · October 4, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan. That doesn't make Cardinal fans wrong. And if you want to read about the impeachment without turning the page, then I suggest you vacation somewhere besides St. Louis in the summertime.

You're right, it IS a game, played by human beings. That's why this thread is a little bit absurd. McGwire has given millions of dollars to charity, brought alot of joy to St. Louis, been a great P.R. rep for St. Louis, speaks highly of the game and the fans of St. Louis, clearly loves his family and spending time with them............. and yet he should be booed because he "might have" tampered with the integrity of the game....... a GAME, mind you, by using steroids???

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

I never said they were "wrong", however, I do agree that as far as this McGwire thing is concerned, they are out of touch with reality. They idolize and have canonized a liar and a cheat, and they don't care. I guess that in and of itself says alot. I apologize to some fans for tossing them in that mix. I knew many Cardinal fans who were almost as taken aback as myself over the hoopla surrounding McGwire. It superseded the team, and the game, which for a fan of the TEAM, and the GAME, kind of ruins it for me. Sure, I cheer individual accomplishments, but for me, the enjoyment comes from the team/game.

Also, you made some incorrect assumptions: I lived in Saint Louis (Holly Hills neighbourhood), I was not on vacation. The Post was my daily paper where I lived and looked for the news.

UK1679666180 · October 4, 2005

They have a right to cheer him, people have a right to disagree with those cheered him b/c of the potential of him using steroids brought on by valid suspicions that include many current players as well as players of the last decade.

I have no problem with them cheering him.

The only problem I have with that HR chase of '98 and the game the record was broken, was Sosa running in to congratulate him and hug him. If I was on the mound and ever had a teammate do that under any circumstance, we'd have issues.

That "made for TV moment" by Sosa was at the expense of Trachsel.

gus_dog · October 4, 2005

They have a right to cheer him, people have a right to disagree with those cheered him b/c of the potential of him using steroids brought on by valid suspicions that include many current players as well as players of the last decade.

I have no problem with them cheering him.

The only problem I have with that HR chase of '98 and the game the record was broken, was Sosa running in to congratulate him and hug him. If I was on the mound and ever had a teammate do that under any circumstance, we'd have issues.

That "made for TV moment" by Sosa was at the expense of Trachsel.

I agree with that. No one is trying to take away their right to cheer. This thread is simply pointing out the paradox of it, and how it reflects on 'baseball's best fans' (sic).

UK1679666180 · October 4, 2005

I don't think it reflects negatively on them.

It doesn't make them any better or any worse, IMO.

But, if they believe they're the best in the 1st place and this somehow impacts that notion, they'd be wrong from the get go. They ain't the greatest... That goes to the Red Sox fans...

K-Town · October 4, 2005

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

I never said they were "wrong", however, I do agree that as far as this McGwire thing is concerned, they are out of touch with reality. They idolize and have canonized a liar and a cheat, and they don't care. I guess that in and of itself says alot. I apologize to some fans for tossing them in that mix. I knew many Cardinal fans who were almost as taken aback as myself over the hoopla surrounding McGwire. It superseded the team, and the game, which for a fan of the TEAM, and the GAME, kind of ruins it for me. Sure, I cheer individual accomplishments, but for me, the enjoyment comes from the team/game.

Also, you made some incorrect assumptions: I lived in Saint Louis (Holly Hills neighbourhood), I was not on vacation. The Post was my daily paper where I lived and looked for the news.

I think you're making a bigger deal out of the steroids "allegations" than they actually are. Lots of players were using steroids in 1998....... I think that's obvioius. None of the others his 70 home runs. So I think it's wrong to completely trivialize what McGwire accomplished, with or without "help". McGwire's run and ultimate record-breaking feat was a magical moment in St. Louis. Maybe you don't see it that way, which is fine. I wouldn't condemn you for not applauding McGwire. Everyone's different. If 50,000 people want to enjoy a harmless moment in a world smothered in tragedy, I say more power to them.

K-Town · October 4, 2005

I don't think it reflects negatively on them.

It doesn't make them any better or any worse, IMO.

But, if they believe they're the best in the 1st place and this somehow impacts that notion, they'd be wrong from the get go. They ain't the greatest... That goes to the Red Sox fans...

The players think it's the Cardinal fans (according to a Sporting News survey a couple of years ago). The Cardinals got like 50% of the player votes. 2nd place wasn't even that close. Red Sox fans are truly serious about their team, though. Maybe Cardinal fans are just the "friendliest", or something. I'm not sure.

UK1679666180 · October 4, 2005

I'm going by what I've seen, I disagree with the players... The times I've been to Fenway and had conversations with Red Sox fans is different than any random conversation with any other fanbase (including STL). They know baseball better than any other fans of another team. You'll have exception to the norm in any fanbase, but overall... If you gave me a choice of having a conversation with a fan of any team, I'd pick a Red Sox fan and that would be an easy choice, well maybe a Devil Rays fan as well b/c of curiousity purposes.

gus_dog · October 4, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Edited October 4, 2005 by gus_dog

The Voice of Reason · October 4, 2005

I don't think it reflects negatively on them.

It doesn't make them any better or any worse, IMO.

But, if they believe they're the best in the 1st place and this somehow impacts that notion, they'd be wrong from the get go. They ain't the greatest... That goes to the Red Sox fans...

The players think it's the Cardinal fans (according to a Sporting News survey a couple of years ago). The Cardinals got like 50% of the player votes. 2nd place wasn't even that close. Red Sox fans are truly serious about their team, though. Maybe Cardinal fans are just the "friendliest", or something. I'm not sure.

Or maybe just the most blindly loyal

K-Town · October 4, 2005

I'm going by what I've seen, I disagree with the players... The times I've been to Fenway and had conversations with Red Sox fans is different than any random conversation with any other fanbase (including STL). They know baseball better than any other fans of another team. You'll have exception to the norm in any fanbase, but overall... If you gave me a choice of having a conversation with a fan of any team, I'd pick a Red Sox fan and that would be an easy choice, well maybe a Devil Rays fan as well b/c of curiousity purposes.

I wouldn't argue with you, probably. I went to a Cubs/Reds game in Cincy. A Red Sox fan was waiting in line with us outside the stadium, and struck up a conversation with us. He was in town, on business, and wanted to see Great American Ballpark, which he had never seen before. It was pretty fascinating to talk baseball with him. Interesting guy. Oddly enough, another fan showed up in a Yankee hat, and there was almost a Red Sox / Yankees riot at a Cubs/Reds game. :lol:

Anyway, I don't have much experience with Red Sox fans, but if this guy was any indication, then they're definitely a different breed.

K-Town · October 4, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

K-Town · October 4, 2005

I don't think it reflects negatively on them.

It doesn't make them any better or any worse, IMO.

But, if they believe they're the best in the 1st place and this somehow impacts that notion, they'd be wrong from the get go. They ain't the greatest... That goes to the Red Sox fans...

The players think it's the Cardinal fans (according to a Sporting News survey a couple of years ago). The Cardinals got like 50% of the player votes. 2nd place wasn't even that close. Red Sox fans are truly serious about their team, though. Maybe Cardinal fans are just the "friendliest", or something. I'm not sure.

Or maybe just the most blindly loyal

Possibly. I guess you'd have to ask the players what they mean by "best".

The Voice of Reason · October 4, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

512 career home runs and two consecutive MVPs (all in a Cubs uniform) by Ernie Banks is a much greater feat than one steroid-induced 70 home run season by McGwire.

XZero771679666304 · October 4, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

Maybe not, but since Mac is no longer the single season leader in HR, Sosa's acheivements are more historically significant. He had a better season in 1998 than Mac, has more career HR, is the only player in history with three 60 HR seasons, and more career RBI. In their primes, Sosa was by far the better player.

So while McGwire held the record for a couple years, it is a real stretch to say we don't understand.

gus_dog · October 4, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

Quick question - Who was the first ML player to ever hit 66 homers in a single season?

Answer - Sammy Sosa. He reached 66 before McGwire in 1998.

Sammy, I suppose, was one of 'my guys'. However, he was never one of my favourites because of his me-first, showboating style. Plus, like I wrote before, for me, it's more about the team/game, than a given player.

That was a strange, surreal evening at Busch in September 1998. Maybe Cardinal fans are different - they sure were different that night, and continue to revere McGwire in an idyllic way.

K-Town · October 5, 2005

deleted Edited October 5, 2005 by K-Town

K-Town · October 5, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

Quick question - Who was the first ML player to ever hit 66 homers in a single season?

Answer - Sammy Sosa. He reached 66 before McGwire in 1998.

Sammy, I suppose, was one of 'my guys'. However, he was never one of my favourites because of his me-first, showboating style. Plus, like I wrote before, for me, it's more about the team/game, than a given player.

That was a strange, surreal evening at Busch in September 1998. Maybe Cardinal fans are different - they sure were different that night, and continue to revere McGwire in an idyllic way.

Yup, Sosa reached 66 before McGwire did. Sosa broke a record that was about 2 days old. McGwire broke a record that was 37 years old. You and I both know that what McGwire did was historically significant. If you want to pretend that it wasn't, for the sake of making your case, knock yourself out.

I agree, the game is more about the team than the individual. The celebration for McGwire in '98 paled in comparison to the World Series celebration in '82 (and yes, the Cards were on the front page of all of the papers in '82).

Cardinal fans don't revere McGwire in an idyllic way. They stood and applauded when he was introduced. They appreciate what he did for the city, while he was here. Again, if fans want to enjoy a moment of fond memories for a few minutes before returning to the world full of tragedy, I say more power to 'em.

K-Town · October 5, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

Maybe not, but since Mac is no longer the single season leader in HR, Sosa's acheivements are more historically significant. He had a better season in 1998 than Mac, has more career HR, is the only player in history with three 60 HR seasons, and more career RBI. In their primes, Sosa was by far the better player.

So while McGwire held the record for a couple years, it is a real stretch to say we don't understand.

McGwire had a 217 OPS+ in '98

Sosa had a 160 OPS+ in '98

McGwire had a career 163 OPS+

Sosa has a career 131 OPS+

McGwire had a far better year than Sosa in '98, and a far better career.

But that's not the point, anyway. What I was saying is that you can't understand how it feels when "your guy" breaks a record as sacred as the one that Roger Maris held for 37 years.

K-Town · October 5, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

512 career home runs and two consecutive MVPs (all in a Cubs uniform) by Ernie Banks is a much greater feat than one steroid-induced 70 home run season by McGwire.

Ernie Banks was a terrific player. You should be proud of him.

XZero771679666304 · October 5, 2005

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan.

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh?

No, YOU made it seem as if Cardinal fans are "different", with your description of the game that you were at. You're the one that made a huge deal out of the Cardinals' reaction.

:? :?:

Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

Maybe not, but since Mac is no longer the single season leader in HR, Sosa's acheivements are more historically significant. He had a better season in 1998 than Mac, has more career HR, is the only player in history with three 60 HR seasons, and more career RBI. In their primes, Sosa was by far the better player.

So while McGwire held the record for a couple years, it is a real stretch to say we don't understand.

McGwire had a 217 OPS+ in '98
Sosa had a 160 OPS+ in '98

McGwire had a career 163 OPS+
Sosa has a career 131 OPS+

McGwire had a far better year than Sosa in '98, and a far better career.

But that's not the point, anyway. What I was saying is that you can't understand how it feels when "your guy" breaks a record as sacred as the one that Roger Maris held for 37 years.

How did he have a far better career? Sosa has more career homers, RBI and a higher batting average. He has a lot more total bases, runs, hits, XBH and is a former multiple 30/30 man. His four year stretch from 1998 through 2001 dwarf any stretch in McGwire's career. His 2001 season is far better than any one of Mac's single seasons, and he did it with ZERO supporting cast, setting the record for production desparity over any teammate in what was one of the top 5 offensive seasons in modern history. Mac had superstars like Henderson and Canseco and productive players like Edmonds and Lankford. All Sosa ever really had was Mark Grace and an aging Sandberg for a year, yet he set the record for HR in a four year period.

Mac scored 100 runs or more 3 times, Sosa did 5 times, all in a row, and the average of those 5 is 7 runs higher than the average of mac's 3. Sosa averaged 88 runs per season in his career, Mac 72. Mac averaged 102 hits per season, Sosa 144. Over their careers, Sosa and Mac averaged the same number of HR per season, and Sosa has averaged 10 more RBI per.

Prior to the last couple years, Sosa had been an everyday player. McGwire was perenially injured, and from 1992-2001, Mac played 150 games only twice, less than 100 5 times, and less than 50 twice. Being healthy is a huge part of contribting to your team. Sammy averaged 144 games in his career to Mac's 117. HR/AB ratio doesn't mean much when you don't give your team AB's.

All of these stats include Sosa's this year, BTW.

Basically the only thing Mac did better over his career was walk and be a totally one dimensional player. Early in his career Sosa was a power and speed threat and was an outstandin fielder with a cannon arm. In his prime, Sosa sprayed balls all over the park with huge power, and ran the bases very well with great speed and commonly took extra bases. Mac has always been a HR/BB/OUT player.

Mac hit long homers and put on good power displays, but as a total asset to his team over the course of his career, particularly in their primes, you simply can't make a logical argument for Mac over Sosa.

So Mac broke record. If anything, the probability that it was broken while cheating should make a fan feel betrayed and bitter, if anything. Sosa was in fact a better player, whose career accomplishments (in light of Mac's record being broken shortly after he set it) are no less significant than McGwire's. And I definately feel seriously conflicted about Sosa, enough so not to unabashadly cheer my second favorite all-time player.

IMO, if an Cards fan isn't conflicted also, they're not being remotely objective, fan loyalty taken into account.

ManEatingTarp · October 5, 2005

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

gus_dog · October 5, 2005

They were both shams.
I hate them both for what they did.
Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

A Cardinal fan I admire, you are.

-yoda

Wild_Cubs04 · October 5, 2005

They were both shams.
I hate them both for what they did.
Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

A-Freakin-men

UK1679666180 · October 6, 2005

I could be able to guess how Cards fans would if one of their pitchers reached 300 wins while with the team. It hasn't happened in many years in STL if ever, but I could imagine how they'd react, probably exaclty the same as Cubs fans.

Even though one of "their" guys have never experienced an accomplishment like that.

Odd how that works.

McGwire's return

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