McGwire's return

[K-Town]

Perhaps if you'd quit sipping the Cardinal kool-aid and try and be objective, you'd read where in an earlier post I stated other players and other NFL players, but you said you didn't want to bring up another thread. So please stop calling me narrow-minded because I've never, never, never said the list you named are the only guys I think have juiced. Basically, like a lot of Cardinal fans, if you play hard, speak highly of the city and fans, you can pretty much get away with murder. McGwire (as well as many others) is a cheater. Put the kool-aid glass down and McGwire is on the long list of cheaters in all sports. When McGwire wasn't under oath he openly and adamantly stated he never took steroids. Then all of a sudden he's under oath and he doesn't take the same stance? Well....steroids is ....is bad.

 

So McGwire is a cheater (maybe)? And so are lots and lots and lots and lots of other ball players. So what? So you hate them all? Or you only hate the ones that you know about? Or you only hate the ones that it's convenient for you to hate? Or you only hate the ones that I applaud? If you'd learn to sit back and enjoy the wonderful moments of the game (inluding McGwire in '98), and not be so judgmental about every mistake that every player makes, then you might enjoy it a little more. I'm sure you are without fault, and so it's hard for you to understand that baseball players are human beings who will make mistakes, but that's life.......... McGwire didn't "murder" anybody. You take this thing WAY too seriously. The joy that he brought to St. Louis is immeasurable. Almost all Cardinal fans recognize that. I'm sorry if that offends you. My advice is to get over it. If you want to hate Cardinal fans for loving Mac, then so be it. I'll sleep well, regardless. So with McGwire.

 

When did McGwire say adamently state that he never took steroids?

 

McGwire took the 5th under oath. Sosa lied, and continued to take your money at the ticket gates.. Palmiero lied, and continued to take your money at the ticket gate. Schilling said whatever it was that was convenient for him to say on that particular day (his stance changes hourly). McGwire left the game 4 years ago, and was trying to enjoy a life with his family in California. I don't blame him for refusing to playing a puppet in that congressional circus, like the rest of the panel did.

[K-Town]

Just the people that don't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter bunny and that OJ is out looking for the "real" killer.

 

 

Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll:

[dalgreen]

Perhaps if you'd quit sipping the Cardinal kool-aid and try and be objective, you'd read where in an earlier post I stated other players and other NFL players, but you said you didn't want to bring up another thread. So please stop calling me narrow-minded because I've never, never, never said the list you named are the only guys I think have juiced. Basically, like a lot of Cardinal fans, if you play hard, speak highly of the city and fans, you can pretty much get away with murder. McGwire (as well as many others) is a cheater. Put the kool-aid glass down and McGwire is on the long list of cheaters in all sports. When McGwire wasn't under oath he openly and adamantly stated he never took steroids. Then all of a sudden he's under oath and he doesn't take the same stance? Well....steroids is ....is bad.

 

So McGwire is a cheater (maybe)? And so are lots and lots and lots and lots of other ball players. So what? So you hate them all? Or you only hate the ones that you know about? Or you only hate the ones that it's convenient for you to hate? Or you only hate the ones that I applaud? If you'd learn to sit back and enjoy the wonderful moments of the game (inluding McGwire in '98), and not be so judgmental about every mistake that every player makes, then you might enjoy it a little more. I'm sure you are without fault, and so it's hard for you to understand that baseball players are human beings who will make mistakes, but that's life.......... McGwire didn't "murder" anybody. You take this thing WAY too seriously. The joy that he brought to St. Louis is immeasurable. Almost all Cardinal fans recognize that. I'm sorry if that offends you. My advice is to get over it. If you want to hate Cardinal fans for loving Mac, then so be it. I'll sleep well, regardless. So with McGwire.

 

When did McGwire say adamently state that he never took steroids?

 

McGwire took the 5th under oath. Sosa lied, and continued to take your money at the ticket gates.. Palmiero lied, and continued to take your money at the ticket gate. Schilling said whatever it was that was convenient for him to say on that particular day (his stance changes hourly). McGwire left the game 4 years ago, and was trying to enjoy a life with his family in California. I don't blame him for refusing to playing a puppet in that congressional circus, like the rest of the panel did.

 

I think you're debating just to be debating. In our discussion, I've never read where you've said.... Steroids is.... is...bad. Do you condone the use of steroids or other banned substances? Using banned substances in sports is not a "mistake" as you state. A mistake is picking up regular soft drinks instead of diet soft drinks at the store. Is embezzling also a mistake? And as I've state before, there are plenty of Cardinal fans who are upset at McGwire so don't pretend that all Cardinal fans condone his actions or lack of action. Some leader in the fight against steroids.... giving money. Tell me something, he said he'd be a leader and spokesman, but he said in an interview that all he's willing to say on steroids is what he said at the congressional hearing. Some spokesperson.

[The Voice of Reason]

Just the people that don't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter bunny and that OJ is out looking for the "real" killer.

 

 

Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll:

 

Nice comeback. :P

[K-Town]

I think you're debating just to be debating. In our discussion, I've never read where you've said.... Steroids is.... is...bad. Do you condone the use of steroids or other banned substances? Using banned substances in sports is not a "mistake" as you state. A mistake is picking up regular soft drinks instead of diet soft drinks at the store. Is embezzling also a mistake? And as I've state before, there are plenty of Cardinal fans who are upset at McGwire so don't pretend that all Cardinal fans condone his actions or lack of action. Some leader in the fight against steroids.... giving money. Tell me something, he said he'd be a leader and spokesman, but he said in an interview that all he's willing to say on steroids is what he said at the congressional hearing. Some spokesperson.

 

I'm debating, because you have a notion that you should be the judge of whom I (and 95% of Cardinal fans) should and should not applaud. I think we're all adults, and can form our own opinions and make our own decisions. Steroids is bad. That doesn't mean that I hate everyone who has ever used steroids, simply based on the fact that they used steroids. If you're going to hate "bad things" in baseball, then you'd better learn to hate MLB and spend ALL of your time in church, because the league, and the world has been rampant with "bad things" since its inception. I try to judge people based on everything that they do, not just one "bad thing". If Cardinal fans want to applaud McGwire for what he did in St. Louis, I dont' see why it's any of your business, quite frankly.

[K-Town]

Just the people that don't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter bunny and that OJ is out looking for the "real" killer.

 

 

Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll:

 

Nice comeback. :P

 

 

 

Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll:

 

 

 

There, that should be better.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I don't see why it's any business to a Cardinal fan what Cub fans discuss on a forum devoted to the Cubs. (See how weak that argument is.)

[K-Town]

I don't see why it's any business to a Cardinal fan what Cub fans discuss on a forum devoted to the Cubs. (See how weak that argument is.)

 

I don't consider the "Rivalries" section of this forum to be devoted to the Cubs.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I don't see why it's any business to a Cardinal fan what Cub fans discuss on a forum devoted to the Cubs. (See how weak that argument is.)

 

I don't consider the "Rivalries" section of this forum to be devoted to the Cubs.

 

This entire web community is devoted to the Cubs. Your assertion that it's none of our business what goes on in Busch Stadium is as ridiculous as my saying its none of your business what we discuss here.

[K-Town]

I don't see why it's any business to a Cardinal fan what Cub fans discuss on a forum devoted to the Cubs. (See how weak that argument is.)

 

I don't consider the "Rivalries" section of this forum to be devoted to the Cubs.

 

This entire web community is devoted to the Cubs. Your assertion that it's none of our business what goes on in Busch Stadium is as ridiculous as my saying its none of your business what we discuss here.

 

 

My point is that if tens of thousands of Cardinal fans want to applaud one of their own, in their stadium, then why should it be a problem for you? It had nothing to do with the Cubs.

 

Likewise, if you want to discuss the Cubs on a Cubs board, why should it be a problem for me? Answer: It's not. It has nothing to do with me.

 

 

Mixing and matching is where the problem is........... Cubs fans criticizing Cardinal fans.......... that's different.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

We're exercising our American right to speak about whatever we want. At least we've chosen an appropriate place to do it...on our own forum.

 

We witness what takes place and comment if we so desire. No one makes you come here to read them.

 

People do such all the time.

 

I'm sorry that you take offense, but as long as I live in a place where it is free to do so, I'm not going to let anyone tell me what it's my business to comment upon.

 

That doesn't mean anyone has to lend credence to my opinions (or anyone else's for that matter), but I'm still entitled to them.

[K-Town]

We're exercising our American right to speak about whatever we want. At least we've chosen an appropriate place to do it...on our own forum.

 

We witness what takes place and comment if we so desire. No one makes you come here to read them.

 

People do such all the time.

 

I'm sorry that you take offense, but as long as I live in a place where it is free to do so, I'm not going to let anyone tell me what it's my business to comment upon.

 

That doesn't mean anyone has to lend credence to my opinions (or anyone else's for that matter), but I'm still entitled to them.

 

Fair enough, then.

 

Likewise, if tens of thousands of Cardinal fans want to applaud McGwire, then you shouldn't have a problem with that, either. As Americans, that's their right.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

We're exercising our American right to speak about whatever we want. At least we've chosen an appropriate place to do it...on our own forum.

 

We witness what takes place and comment if we so desire. No one makes you come here to read them.

 

People do such all the time.

 

I'm sorry that you take offense, but as long as I live in a place where it is free to do so, I'm not going to let anyone tell me what it's my business to comment upon.

 

That doesn't mean anyone has to lend credence to my opinions (or anyone else's for that matter), but I'm still entitled to them.

 

Fair enough, then.

 

Likewise, if tens of thousands of Cardinal fans want to applaud McGwire, then you shouldn't have a problem with that, either. As Americans, that's their right.

 

It certainly is their right. And if you'll read carefully, I've made little comment on the issue. I do, however, think it is appropriate for others to comment on it. I'm not surprised that Cardinal nation applauded McGwire. Bias is a common factor among sports fans. We tend to like those who play for our teams and ignore their faults, while at the same time chide or ridicule the faults of those who play for rivals.

 

What is rather hypocritical is when Cardinal fans applaud McGwire, yet the same fans held up "Cork" signs when Sammy played in Busch in 2003 and 2004. However, I'm sure you weren't among those.

[K-Town]

We're exercising our American right to speak about whatever we want. At least we've chosen an appropriate place to do it...on our own forum.

 

We witness what takes place and comment if we so desire. No one makes you come here to read them.

 

People do such all the time.

 

I'm sorry that you take offense, but as long as I live in a place where it is free to do so, I'm not going to let anyone tell me what it's my business to comment upon.

 

That doesn't mean anyone has to lend credence to my opinions (or anyone else's for that matter), but I'm still entitled to them.

 

Fair enough, then.

 

Likewise, if tens of thousands of Cardinal fans want to applaud McGwire, then you shouldn't have a problem with that, either. As Americans, that's their right.

 

It certainly is their right. And if you'll read carefully, I've made little comment on the issue. I do, however, think it is appropriate for others to comment on it. I'm not surprised that Cardinal nation applauded McGwire. Bias is a common factor among sports fans. We tend to like those who play for our teams and ignore their faults, while at the same time chide or ridicule the faults of those who play for rivals.

 

What is rather hypocritical is when Cardinal fans applaud McGwire, yet the same fans held up "Cork" signs when Sammy played in Busch in 2003 and 2004. However, I'm sure you weren't among those.

 

I addressed this issue earlier.

 

Sosa wasn't a Cardinal, wasn't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, hasn't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Therefore, he's not going to be treated like McGwire. Nor should he. That's not hypocritical.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Sosa wasn't a Cardinal, wasn't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, hasn't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Therefore, he's not going to be treated like McGwire. Nor should he. That's not hypocritical.

 

So it's not hypocritical for me to call McGwire a cheat, liar, and horrible human being and yet still cheer Sosa. Cool, glad we got it settled.

 

Basically, you've affirmed fan bias. If a player is loyal to an organization and done other admirable things in the name of the organization and brought enjoyment to its fans, it's entirely ok to look the other way concerning the character of such an individual.

 

However, if a player hasn't exhibited those traits to the team which you are a fan of, it's entirely ok to chide and ridicule such a player for the same traits you turn a blind eye to of your own player.

 

Or, if my child misbehaves, that's just kids being kids; if your child does it, he's a bad kid. I understand completely.

[K-Town]

Sosa wasn't a Cardinal, wasn't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, hasn't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Therefore, he's not going to be treated like McGwire. Nor should he. That's not hypocritical.

 

So it's not hypocritical for me to call McGwire a cheat, liar, and horrible human being and yet still cheer Sosa. Cool, glad we got it settled.

 

Basically, you've affirmed fan bias. If a player is loyal to an organization and done other admirable things in the name of the organization and brought enjoyment to its fans, it's entirely ok to look the other way concerning the character of such an individual.

 

However, if a player hasn't exhibited those traits to the team which you are a fan of, it's entirely ok to chide and ridicule such a player for the same traits you turn a blind eye to of your own player.

 

Or, if my child misbehaves, that's just kids being kids; if your child does it, he's a bad kid. I understand completely.

 

"Character" can be judged by much more than simply being accused of using steroids.

 

Just because McGwire is accused of using steroids, that doesn't make him a bad human being.

 

Just because your child, or my child makes a mistake, that doesn't make them "bad kids".

 

You have to evaluate the entire picture. In Sosa's case, he showed alot of arrogance, corked his bat, probably used steroids, walked out on the team, chided them with his boom box, and came across as being an overall jerk.

 

McGwire played the game, praised St. Louis, and slipped off to spend time with his family. I'm fine with him. Is that biased? Maybe. But to a certain extent, that's what being a fan is all about.

 

If you're looking for the perfect player to root for, lotsa' luck.

[dalgreen]

"Character" can be judged by much more than simply being accused of using steroids.

 

Just because McGwire is accused of using steroids, that doesn't make him a bad human being.

 

Just because your child, or my child makes a mistake, that doesn't make them "bad kids".

 

You have to evaluate the entire picture. In Sosa's case, he showed alot of arrogance, corked his bat, probably used steroids, walked out on the team, chided them with his boom box, and came across as being an overall jerk.

 

McGwire played the game, praised St. Louis, and slipped off to spend time with his family. I'm fine with him. Is that biased? Maybe. But to a certain extent, that's what being a fan is all about.

 

If you're looking for the perfect player to root for, lotsa' luck.

 

Man, it's a good thing I know some objective Cardinal fans who think McGwire is a cheat because you are exhibiting the general "homer" that is known as a Cardinal fan. Everything is okay if you've ever worn the birds on the bat and spoke highly of the city or called its fans "the best in baseball". I can't find one place where anyone has said that McGwire is a horrible human being, not one. He's not a perfect human being and he definitely isn't a bad human being. All I believe I've ever said is that he is a cheater and lied about his use of steroids. I don't know why you equate that to people saying he's a bad human being. I love how he was the only one, I believe, not to ride around in the car to tear down the number. He conveniently popped out of the gate near the sign with wife and child in hand. Now, maybe he wanted his family to experience this great moment, but the large majority of the others did it without their families. Was it a buffer against the possible boos? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Wild_Cubs04]

Sosa wasn't a Cardinal, wasn't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, hasn't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Therefore, he's not going to be treated like McGwire. Nor should he. That's not hypocritical.

 

So it's not hypocritical for me to call McGwire a cheat, liar, and horrible human being and yet still cheer Sosa. Cool, glad we got it settled.

 

Basically, you've affirmed fan bias. If a player is loyal to an organization and done other admirable things in the name of the organization and brought enjoyment to its fans, it's entirely ok to look the other way concerning the character of such an individual.

 

However, if a player hasn't exhibited those traits to the team which you are a fan of, it's entirely ok to chide and ridicule such a player for the same traits you turn a blind eye to of your own player.

 

Or, if my child misbehaves, that's just kids being kids; if your child does it, he's a bad kid. I understand completely.

 

"Character" can be judged by much more than simply being accused of using steroids.

 

Just because McGwire is accused of using steroids, that doesn't make him a bad human being.

 

Just because your child, or my child makes a mistake, that doesn't make them "bad kids".

 

You have to evaluate the entire picture. In Sosa's case, he showed alot of arrogance, corked his bat, probably used steroids, walked out on the team, chided them with his boom box, and came across as being an overall jerk.

 

McGwire played the game, praised St. Louis, and slipped off to spend time with his family. I'm fine with him. Is that biased? Maybe. But to a certain extent, that's what being a fan is all about.

 

If you're looking for the perfect player to root for, lotsa' luck.

 

Dude, do YOU even believe half the crud in your own post's here? Slipped off to spend time with family sure sounds like a good excuse huh...

 

Sosa played the game, praised Chicago (even when he was no longer a Cub, see news paper add thanking the City and the fans) and slipped off to do God knows what the last game of the season.....what's the difference?

[K-Town]

Man, it's a good thing I know some objective Cardinal fans who think McGwire is a cheat because you are exhibiting the general "homer" that is known as a Cardinal fan. Everything is okay if you've ever worn the birds on the bat and spoke highly of the city or called its fans "the best in baseball". I can't find one place where anyone has said that McGwire is a horrible human being, not one. He's not a perfect human being and he definitely isn't a bad human being. All I believe I've ever said is that he is a cheater and lied about his use of steroids. I don't know why you equate that to people saying he's a bad human being. I love how he was the only one, I believe, not to ride around in the car to tear down the number. He conveniently popped out of the gate near the sign with wife and child in hand. Now, maybe he wanted his family to experience this great moment, but the large majority of the others did it without their families. Was it a buffer against the possible boos? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

I don't think it was a "buffer" against anything. McGwire was introduced. If there were going to be boos, then that would have been the appropriate time. I honestly don't think that McGwire gives two shakes if somebody wants to boo him. Heck, he was embarrassed when he left the game, because of the way he was playing. He knows he's not perfect. He's a happy man now. The game doesn't consume him like it does some of you, and it never will.

 

The vast majority of Cardinal fans love McGwire. I know a few who don't, also. I know fans who hate Ozzie Smith. I know fans who hate Larussa. I know fans who rip Pujols every time he has a bad week. We call them "the Whaction". You can't possibly take them seriously.

 

When did McGwire "lie", and how do you know he lied? And what makes you think that every player that's ever played the game hasn't told a lie?

 

Why is it SO hard for you to stomach the fact that the vast majority of Cardinal fans love McGwire? Why can't you just let people decide for themselves who they want to applaud? It's presumptuos of you to think that everybody should hate him for the reasons that you do. Let people decide for themselves........

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Sosa corked a practice bat he accidentally used in a game, and then apologized for it. He made a mistake. He loved to cheer everyone with loud music. Threw large spring training parties for his team mates, gave large amounts of money to victims of hurricane Georges, and was always smiling and showing love to the fans.

 

Why does any of that make him worse than McGwire who always appeared surly and not nearly as fan friendly as Sosa?

 

(Now does that sound like parisan fan spin? Sure it does. But the fact remains, there's just as much evidence that Sosa is a good human being as there is that McGwire is. There's probably equal amount to attack them as well.)

 

The truth is that when you cheer McGwire and then chide Sosa (or any other player for being a cheat) you can't really expect to be taken seriously. The bias devalues any legitimacy. If that's how you want to be, you have your right, but by turning a blind eye in the name of fan bias, then when you ridicule a player of the other side, you can't be taken seriously.

[K-Town]

Sosa wasn't a Cardinal, wasn't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, hasn't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Therefore, he's not going to be treated like McGwire. Nor should he. That's not hypocritical.

 

So it's not hypocritical for me to call McGwire a cheat, liar, and horrible human being and yet still cheer Sosa. Cool, glad we got it settled.

 

Basically, you've affirmed fan bias. If a player is loyal to an organization and done other admirable things in the name of the organization and brought enjoyment to its fans, it's entirely ok to look the other way concerning the character of such an individual.

 

However, if a player hasn't exhibited those traits to the team which you are a fan of, it's entirely ok to chide and ridicule such a player for the same traits you turn a blind eye to of your own player.

 

Or, if my child misbehaves, that's just kids being kids; if your child does it, he's a bad kid. I understand completely.

 

"Character" can be judged by much more than simply being accused of using steroids.

 

Just because McGwire is accused of using steroids, that doesn't make him a bad human being.

 

Just because your child, or my child makes a mistake, that doesn't make them "bad kids".

 

You have to evaluate the entire picture. In Sosa's case, he showed alot of arrogance, corked his bat, probably used steroids, walked out on the team, chided them with his boom box, and came across as being an overall jerk.

 

McGwire played the game, praised St. Louis, and slipped off to spend time with his family. I'm fine with him. Is that biased? Maybe. But to a certain extent, that's what being a fan is all about.

 

If you're looking for the perfect player to root for, lotsa' luck.

 

Dude, do YOU even believe half the crud in your own post's here? Slipped off to spend time with family sure sounds like a good excuse huh...

 

Sosa played the game, praised Chicago (even when he was no longer a Cub, see news paper add thanking the City and the fans) and slipped off to do God knows what the last game of the season.....what's the difference?

 

The difference is, if Cubs fans chose to applaud him, I'd be OK with that. He's their guy.

 

I like McGwire, and so do the vast majority of Cardinal fans. If you choose to like Sosa, then so be it. I'm not going to tell you who to applaud.

[K-Town]

Sosa corked a practice bat he accidentally used in a game, and then apologized for it. He made a mistake. He loved to cheer everyone with loud music. Threw large spring training parties for his team mates, gave large amounts of money to victims of hurricane Georges, and was always smiling and showing love to the fans.

 

Why does any of that make him worse than McGwire who always appeared surly and not nearly as fan friendly as Sosa?

 

(Now does that sound like parisan fan spin? Sure it does. But the fact remains, there's just as much evidence that Sosa is a good human being as there is that McGwire is. There's probably equal amount to attack them as well.)

 

The truth is that when you cheer McGwire and then chide Sosa (or any other player for being a cheat) you can't really expect to be taken seriously. The bias devalues any legitimacy. If that's how you want to be, you have your right, but by turning a blind eye in the name of fan bias, then when you ridicule a player of the other side, you can't be taken seriously.

 

 

Then why do Cubs fans cheer when Derrek Lee comes to bat, and not when Pujols comes to bat? Why do they cheer when Prior strikes someone out, but not when Carpenter strikes someone out? Are you all a bunch of hypocrites?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Sosa corked a practice bat he accidentally used in a game, and then apologized for it. He made a mistake. He loved to cheer everyone with loud music. Threw large spring training parties for his team mates, gave large amounts of money to victims of hurricane Georges, and was always smiling and showing love to the fans.

 

Why does any of that make him worse than McGwire who always appeared surly and not nearly as fan friendly as Sosa?

 

(Now does that sound like parisan fan spin? Sure it does. But the fact remains, there's just as much evidence that Sosa is a good human being as there is that McGwire is. There's probably equal amount to attack them as well.)

 

The truth is that when you cheer McGwire and then chide Sosa (or any other player for being a cheat) you can't really expect to be taken seriously. The bias devalues any legitimacy. If that's how you want to be, you have your right, but by turning a blind eye in the name of fan bias, then when you ridicule a player of the other side, you can't be taken seriously.

 

 

Then why do Cubs fans cheer when Derrek Lee comes to bat, and not when Pujols comes to bat? Why do they cheer when Prior strikes someone out, but not when Carpenter strikes someone out? Are you all a bunch of hypocrites?

 

Notice I said chide Sosa for being a cheat. And that's frankly my point. I cheer Cubs because they are Cubs and boo others because they play for the other team.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't call another player on another team a cheat for doing something that I'd turn a blind eye to.

 

For example, to call Sosa a cheater, you must admit that McGwire is too. If you cheer McGwire because he's a Cardinal, fine with me. Just don't pretend he's any better of a person than Sosa, Bonds, or Palmeiro. He's not.

[XZero771679666304]

Sosa corked a practice bat he accidentally used in a game, and then apologized for it. He made a mistake. He loved to cheer everyone with loud music. Threw large spring training parties for his team mates, gave large amounts of money to victims of hurricane Georges, and was always smiling and showing love to the fans.

 

Why does any of that make him worse than McGwire who always appeared surly and not nearly as fan friendly as Sosa?

 

(Now does that sound like parisan fan spin? Sure it does. But the fact remains, there's just as much evidence that Sosa is a good human being as there is that McGwire is. There's probably equal amount to attack them as well.)

 

The truth is that when you cheer McGwire and then chide Sosa (or any other player for being a cheat) you can't really expect to be taken seriously. The bias devalues any legitimacy. If that's how you want to be, you have your right, but by turning a blind eye in the name of fan bias, then when you ridicule a player of the other side, you can't be taken seriously.

 

 

Then why do Cubs fans cheer when Derrek Lee comes to bat, and not when Pujols comes to bat? Why do they cheer when Prior strikes someone out, but not when Carpenter strikes someone out? Are you all a bunch of hypocrites?

 

Because this isn't about Lee, Pujols, Carp or Prior. This is about two very high profile players who are under varying degrees of scrutiny with regard to possible (if not highly probable) cheating. And you are implying McGwire should get a free pass from fans because of his charitable deeds and "team loyalty", and Sosa shouldn't because he is a "jerk". That is BS.

 

This isn't about today's players or typical fan loyalty. This is about not wearing rose colored glasses and holding cheaters accountable, regardless of fan affliliation. Trying to separate McGwire from Sosa, Palmeiro etc. because of positive things he said and for STL is unabashadly naieve and homersitic.

 

Personally, I was as big a Sosa fan as anyone. I have signed baseballs, cards, jersey's, posters, pennants etc. And if I there was a ceremony at Wrigley involving Sosa, I would not cheer him. I wouldn't boo him because I don't feel juicing is worth spewing venom over (because I think so many did), but I wouldn't cheer. And he has done a lot less to incriminate himself than Mac has. I don't want to believe Sosa juiced, but deep down I feel he must have, and I can deal with that.

 

I think the point of this thread is that many Cards fans can't deal with Mac's cheating and cheered under the guise of saluting his "character". It's like they would rather keep this nice warm fuzzy facade separating STL from the rest of the baseball world than deal with the truth, and it's pathetic.

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Sosa corked a practice bat he accidentally used in a game, and then apologized for it. He made a mistake. He loved to cheer everyone with loud music. Threw large spring training parties for his team mates, gave large amounts of money to victims of hurricane Georges, and was always smiling and showing love to the fans.

 

Why does any of that make him worse than McGwire who always appeared surly and not nearly as fan friendly as Sosa?

 

(Now does that sound like parisan fan spin? Sure it does. But the fact remains, there's just as much evidence that Sosa is a good human being as there is that McGwire is. There's probably equal amount to attack them as well.)

 

The truth is that when you cheer McGwire and then chide Sosa (or any other player for being a cheat) you can't really expect to be taken seriously. The bias devalues any legitimacy. If that's how you want to be, you have your right, but by turning a blind eye in the name of fan bias, then when you ridicule a player of the other side, you can't be taken seriously.

 

 

Then why do Cubs fans cheer when Derrek Lee comes to bat, and not when Pujols comes to bat? Why do they cheer when Prior strikes someone out, but not when Carpenter strikes someone out? Are you all a bunch of hypocrites?

 

Notice I said chide Sosa for being a cheat. And that's frankly my point. I cheer Cubs because they are Cubs and boo others because they play for the other team.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't call another player on another team a cheat for doing something that I'd turn a blind eye to.

 

For example, to call Sosa a cheater, you must admit that McGwire is too. If you cheer McGwire because he's a Cardinal, fine with me. Just don't pretend he's any better of a person than Sosa, Bonds, or Palmeiro. He's not.

 

I agree with you, but McGwire is a good person, and I think Bonds is a egomaniacal SOB.

 

Having said that, it should have nothing to do with how you evaluate their cheating, and free passes for cheating shouldn't be given out because of civic good deeds.