McGwire's return

[dalgreen]

Man, it's a good thing I know some objective Cardinal fans who think McGwire is a cheat because you are exhibiting the general "homer" that is known as a Cardinal fan. Everything is okay if you've ever worn the birds on the bat and spoke highly of the city or called its fans "the best in baseball". I can't find one place where anyone has said that McGwire is a horrible human being, not one. He's not a perfect human being and he definitely isn't a bad human being. All I believe I've ever said is that he is a cheater and lied about his use of steroids. I don't know why you equate that to people saying he's a bad human being. I love how he was the only one, I believe, not to ride around in the car to tear down the number. He conveniently popped out of the gate near the sign with wife and child in hand. Now, maybe he wanted his family to experience this great moment, but the large majority of the others did it without their families. Was it a buffer against the possible boos? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

I don't think it was a "buffer" against anything. McGwire was introduced. If there were going to be boos, then that would have been the appropriate time. I honestly don't think that McGwire gives two shakes if somebody wants to boo him. Heck, he was embarrassed when he left the game, because of the way he was playing. He knows he's not perfect. He's a happy man now. The game doesn't consume him like it does some of you, and it never will.

 

The vast majority of Cardinal fans love McGwire. I know a few who don't, also. I know fans who hate Ozzie Smith. I know fans who hate Larussa. I know fans who rip Pujols every time he has a bad week. We call them "the Whaction". You can't possibly take them seriously.

 

When did McGwire "lie", and how do you know he lied? And what makes you think that every player that's ever played the game hasn't told a lie?

 

Why is it SO hard for you to stomach the fact that the vast majority of Cardinal fans love McGwire? Why can't you just let people decide for themselves who they want to applaud? It's presumptuos of you to think that everybody should hate him for the reasons that you do. Let people decide for themselves........

 

I don't think you live in St. Louis. If you did then you wouldn't say "the vast majority of people love McGwire. I think the majority of Cardinal sheep like him, but don't love him. Just because 50,000 fans cheered him doesn't mean the vast majority of Cardinal fans love him. I'll trust you, take a poll of only 250 random Cardinal fans from "Cardinal nation" and I guarantee you the "vast majority" won't say they "love" McGwire.

 

Since you love McGwire, you should also love Garry Templeton. He only flipped off the fans behind the Cardinal dugout who were cursing at him, and could've been using racial epithets. Do you construe that as a mistake or would fans have booed him?

[Derwood]

I'm conflicted on this issue. Sometimes I think you need to separate the misdeeds from the good deeds in times of celebration. For example, I would have applauded Pete Rose at the "100 greatest players" celebration simply because of his baseball accomplishments. Remember Jim Gray getting killed by the players because he chose that moment to bring up the gambling again? Sometimes you need to let it go and give them their due for their on-the-field accomplishments.

 

That said, Rose's gambling didn't affect his ability to hit the baseball or amass records. Andro/Roids could have done that for McGwire.

[K-Town]

Notice I said chide Sosa for being a cheat. And that's frankly my point. I cheer Cubs because they are Cubs and boo others because they play for the other team.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't call another player on another team a cheat for doing something that I'd turn a blind eye to.

 

For example, to call Sosa a cheater, you must admit that McGwire is too. If you cheer McGwire because he's a Cardinal, fine with me. Just don't pretend he's any better of a person than Sosa, Bonds, or Palmeiro. He's not.

 

I think that a large percentage of ball players cheat. And you cheer many of them. Basically, YOU are turning a blind eye to the ones who haven't been "busted" yet. If you're naive enough to think that Bonds, Sosa, Palmiero, and McGwire are the only "cheaters" on baseball, then I've got some property near Lake Michigan that you might be interested in.

[K-Town]

Because this isn't about Lee, Pujols, Carp or Prior. This is about two very high profile players who are under varying degrees of scrutiny with regard to possible (if not highly probable) cheating. And you are implying McGwire should get a free pass from fans because of his charitable deeds and "team loyalty", and Sosa shouldn't because he is a "jerk". That is BS.

 

This isn't about today's players or typical fan loyalty. This is about not wearing rose colored glasses and holding cheaters accountable, regardless of fan affliliation. Trying to separate McGwire from Sosa, Palmeiro etc. because of positive things he said and for STL is unabashadly naieve and homersitic.

 

Personally, I was as big a Sosa fan as anyone. I have signed baseballs, cards, jersey's, posters, pennants etc. And if I there was a ceremony at Wrigley involving Sosa, I would not cheer him. I wouldn't boo him because I don't feel juicing is worth spewing venom over (because I think so many did), but I wouldn't cheer. And he has done a lot less to incriminate himself than Mac has. I don't want to believe Sosa juiced, but deep down I feel he must have, and I can deal with that.

 

I think the point of this thread is that many Cards fans can't deal with Mac's cheating and cheered under the guise of saluting his "character". It's like they would rather keep this nice warm fuzzy facade separating STL from the rest of the baseball world than deal with the truth, and it's pathetic.

 

Sosa has done less to incriminate himself than Mac has?? Mac refused to answer questions at a Congressional Circus. Sosa claimed that he didn't understand the questions, and had his bat spew cork across the Wrigley infield. How on earth do you conclude that what Mac has done is more incriminating?

 

If you don't want to cheer Sosa, that's your choice. Personally, I'm proud that Cardinal fans can cheer a decent human being that brought them many enjoyable moments. If they want to like the guy, why should you have a problem with that? Mac has been a part of the Cardinal family. In my world, you ARE able to overlook some of the faults of people in your family. That's cool.

[K-Town]

I don't think you live in St. Louis. If you did then you wouldn't say "the vast majority of people love McGwire. I think the majority of Cardinal sheep like him, but don't love him. Just because 50,000 fans cheered him doesn't mean the vast majority of Cardinal fans love him. I'll trust you, take a poll of only 250 random Cardinal fans from "Cardinal nation" and I guarantee you the "vast majority" won't say they "love" McGwire.

 

Since you love McGwire, you should also love Garry Templeton. He only flipped off the fans behind the Cardinal dugout who were cursing at him, and could've been using racial epithets. Do you construe that as a mistake or would fans have booed him?

 

"Love" is probably too strong of a word. Most Cardinal fans do appreciate Mac, though.

 

Templeton didn't respect St. Louis fans. McGwire did. There's your difference. Cardinal fans reciprocate in like. If you play the game hard, and respect the city & the fans, then you can get away with quite a bit in St. Louis. That's why Cardinal fans still cheer McGwire.

[K-Town]

I'm conflicted on this issue. Sometimes I think you need to separate the misdeeds from the good deeds in times of celebration. For example, I would have applauded Pete Rose at the "100 greatest players" celebration simply because of his baseball accomplishments. Remember Jim Gray getting killed by the players because he chose that moment to bring up the gambling again? Sometimes you need to let it go and give them their due for their on-the-field accomplishments.

 

That said, Rose's gambling didn't affect his ability to hit the baseball or amass records. Andro/Roids could have done that for McGwire.

 

Rose betting on baseball, on his own team, could have had a HUGE effect on games.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Notice I said chide Sosa for being a cheat. And that's frankly my point. I cheer Cubs because they are Cubs and boo others because they play for the other team.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't call another player on another team a cheat for doing something that I'd turn a blind eye to.

 

For example, to call Sosa a cheater, you must admit that McGwire is too. If you cheer McGwire because he's a Cardinal, fine with me. Just don't pretend he's any better of a person than Sosa, Bonds, or Palmeiro. He's not.

 

I think that a large percentage of ball players cheat. And you cheer many of them. Basically, YOU are turning a blind eye to the ones who haven't been "busted" yet. If you're naive enough to think that Bonds, Sosa, Palmiero, and McGwire are the only "cheaters" on baseball, then I've got some property near Lake Michigan that you might be interested in.

 

I'm not turning a "blind eye" to any. I can only incriminare those who have been "busted."

 

I know you like analogies, so I'll give you one here. I'm a teacher. Do some of my students cheat? Surely. But when they make the grade, I applaud them (or reward them). Do I occasionally applaud "cheaters"? Probabaly. But until I "bust" them, no one is a cheater. I'm not turning a "blind-eye" to cheaters in my classroom. If and when they're busted, I'll deal with them.

 

The same with MLB. I may unknowing cheer a cheater. That doesn't mean I'm hypocritical or turning a "blind eye." If and when they are caught, I'll adjust my feelings toward them.

 

If I applied your reasoning to my classroom, I wouldn't punish anyone I caught cheating unless I was sure to catch all of them....or I wouldn't applaud any of my students good work until I was sure none were cheaters. Either of those scenarios is pretty asinine.

[K-Town]

I'm not turning a "blind eye" to any. I can only incriminare those who have been "busted."

 

I know you like analogies, so I'll give you one here. I'm a teacher. Do some of my students cheat? Surely. But when they make the grade, I applaud them (or reward them). Do I occasionally applaud "cheaters"? Probabaly. But until I "bust" them, no one is a cheater. I'm not turning a "blind-eye" to cheaters in my classroom. If and when they're busted, I'll deal with them.

 

The same with MLB. I may unknowing cheer a cheater. That doesn't mean I'm hypocritical or turning a "blind eye." If and when they are caught, I'll adjust my feelings toward them.

 

If I applied your reasoning to my classroom, I wouldn't punish anyone I caught cheating unless I was sure to catch all of them....or I wouldn't applaud any of my students good work until I was sure none were cheaters. Either of those scenarios is pretty asinine.

 

 

Did McGwire get caught cheating?

[Derwood]

I'm conflicted on this issue. Sometimes I think you need to separate the misdeeds from the good deeds in times of celebration. For example, I would have applauded Pete Rose at the "100 greatest players" celebration simply because of his baseball accomplishments. Remember Jim Gray getting killed by the players because he chose that moment to bring up the gambling again? Sometimes you need to let it go and give them their due for their on-the-field accomplishments.

 

That said, Rose's gambling didn't affect his ability to hit the baseball or amass records. Andro/Roids could have done that for McGwire.

 

Rose betting on baseball, on his own team, could have had a HUGE effect on games.

 

did he bet on games he played or on games he managed?

 

and betting doesn't tarnish the fact that he was statisically the most accomplished hitter of all time

[Wild_Cubs04]

I'm not turning a "blind eye" to any. I can only incriminare those who have been "busted."

 

I know you like analogies, so I'll give you one here. I'm a teacher. Do some of my students cheat? Surely. But when they make the grade, I applaud them (or reward them). Do I occasionally applaud "cheaters"? Probabaly. But until I "bust" them, no one is a cheater. I'm not turning a "blind-eye" to cheaters in my classroom. If and when they're busted, I'll deal with them.

 

The same with MLB. I may unknowing cheer a cheater. That doesn't mean I'm hypocritical or turning a "blind eye." If and when they are caught, I'll adjust my feelings toward them.

 

If I applied your reasoning to my classroom, I wouldn't punish anyone I caught cheating unless I was sure to catch all of them....or I wouldn't applaud any of my students good work until I was sure none were cheaters. Either of those scenarios is pretty asinine.

 

 

Did McGwire get caught cheating?

 

Has he proven he didn't cheat?

[K-Town]

I'm conflicted on this issue. Sometimes I think you need to separate the misdeeds from the good deeds in times of celebration. For example, I would have applauded Pete Rose at the "100 greatest players" celebration simply because of his baseball accomplishments. Remember Jim Gray getting killed by the players because he chose that moment to bring up the gambling again? Sometimes you need to let it go and give them their due for their on-the-field accomplishments.

 

That said, Rose's gambling didn't affect his ability to hit the baseball or amass records. Andro/Roids could have done that for McGwire.

 

Rose betting on baseball, on his own team, could have had a HUGE effect on games.

 

did he bet on games he played or on games he managed?

 

and betting doesn't tarnish the fact that he was statisically the most accomplished hitter of all time

 

Absolutely. I'm not questioning that, at all.

[K-Town]

I'm not turning a "blind eye" to any. I can only incriminare those who have been "busted."

 

I know you like analogies, so I'll give you one here. I'm a teacher. Do some of my students cheat? Surely. But when they make the grade, I applaud them (or reward them). Do I occasionally applaud "cheaters"? Probabaly. But until I "bust" them, no one is a cheater. I'm not turning a "blind-eye" to cheaters in my classroom. If and when they're busted, I'll deal with them.

 

The same with MLB. I may unknowing cheer a cheater. That doesn't mean I'm hypocritical or turning a "blind eye." If and when they are caught, I'll adjust my feelings toward them.

 

If I applied your reasoning to my classroom, I wouldn't punish anyone I caught cheating unless I was sure to catch all of them....or I wouldn't applaud any of my students good work until I was sure none were cheaters. Either of those scenarios is pretty asinine.

 

 

Did McGwire get caught cheating?

 

Has he proven he didn't cheat?

 

No. Has anybody?

[Wild_Cubs04]

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

[K-Town]

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

 

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. Why should I bother?

[Wild_Cubs04]

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

 

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. Why should I bother?

 

I don't think I have implied that you were blind, foolish, or homerish, it was a serious question. Just trying to understand both sides/opinions if you will.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

 

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. Why should I bother?

 

That response sounds much like McGwire's response to the steroid questions... :-k

[K-Town]

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

 

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. Why should I bother?

 

I don't think I have implied that you were blind, foolish, or homerish, it was a serious question. Just trying to understand both sides/opinions if you will.

 

 

"What I will not do, however, is participate in naming names and implicating my friends and teammates. I retired from baseball four years ago. I live a quiet life with my wife and children. I have always been a team player. I have never been a person who spread rumors or said things about teammates that could hurt them. I do not sit in judgment of other players, whether it deals with their sexual preference, their marital problems, or other personal habits, including whether or not they use chemical substances. That has never been my style, and I do not intend to change this just because the cameras are turned on.

 

"Nor do I intend to dignify Mr. Canseco's book. It should be enough that you consider the source of the statements in the book, and that many inconsistencies and contradictions have already been raised.

 

"I've been advised that my testimony here could be used to harm friends and respected teammates, or that some ambitious prosecutor can use convicted criminals who would do and say anything to solve their own problems and create jeopardy for my friends.

 

"Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers no, he simply will not be believed. If he answers yes, he risks public scorn and endless government investigations. My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself. I intend to follow their advice.

 

 

Granted, the panel never asked him to "name names", but I don't think that McGwire knew what to expect, going into the hearings, so he and his attorney simply designed a strategy to take the safe route. All of the players at the hearing looked foolish, in my mind. People like to single out McGwire because he took a different direction than the other players at the hearings.

[Wild_Cubs04]

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

 

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer. Why should I bother?

 

I don't think I have implied that you were blind, foolish, or homerish, it was a serious question. Just trying to understand both sides/opinions if you will.

 

 

"What I will not do, however, is participate in naming names and implicating my friends and teammates. I retired from baseball four years ago. I live a quiet life with my wife and children. I have always been a team player. I have never been a person who spread rumors or said things about teammates that could hurt them. I do not sit in judgment of other players, whether it deals with their sexual preference, their marital problems, or other personal habits, including whether or not they use chemical substances. That has never been my style, and I do not intend to change this just because the cameras are turned on.

 

"Nor do I intend to dignify Mr. Canseco's book. It should be enough that you consider the source of the statements in the book, and that many inconsistencies and contradictions have already been raised.

 

"I've been advised that my testimony here could be used to harm friends and respected teammates, or that some ambitious prosecutor can use convicted criminals who would do and say anything to solve their own problems and create jeopardy for my friends.

 

"Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers no, he simply will not be believed. If he answers yes, he risks public scorn and endless government investigations. My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself. I intend to follow their advice.

 

 

Granted, the panel never asked him to "name names", but I don't think that McGwire knew what to expect, going into the hearings, so he and his attorney simply designed a strategy to take the safe route. All of the players at the hearing looked foolish, in my mind. People like to single out McGwire because he took a different direction than the other players at the hearings.

 

Didn't know what to expect? I think he knew very well what to expect at the hearings, as did the rest of the players, etc that were there. Safe route for what, to avoid giving a yes or no? I completely understand the family and quiet part...but...he said he didn't want to jeopardize his friends, family, if he didn't juice wouldn't you think him clearing his name from the "speculated" list would be better for them all?

 

I don't give 2 shakes about him naming names per say, I want to know if HE did or didn't juice plain and simple.

[The Voice of Reason]

Question for K-Town.....what, in your opinion, is the reason that he sealed shut at the hearings and utilized the 5th?

 

Any answer I give you will simply open the door for you to call me a foolish blind homer.

 

 

No need to state the obvious.

[K-Town]

Didn't know what to expect? I think he knew very well what to expect at the hearings, as did the rest of the players, etc that were there. Safe route for what, to avoid giving a yes or no? I completely understand the family and quiet part...but...he said he didn't want to jeopardize his friends, family, if he didn't juice wouldn't you think him clearing his name from the "speculated" list would be better for them all?

 

I don't give 2 shakes about him naming names per say, I want to know if HE did or didn't juice plain and simple.

 

 

You never will.

[gus_dog]

I was living in Saint Louis in 1998, and I observed firsthand the ridiculousness of that 'fake' race. I was actually at the game where McGwire broke the record, and witnessed the many legions of Cardinal fans, with their hearts palpitating, high fiving (as if THEY did something), and generally worshipping Saint Mark. After McGwire hit the homer to break the record, I clapped politely, then scurried off to the john and grabbed a beer. There were no crowds in the restrooms because the vast majority were busy undulating and prostrating themselves over a home run. It was a disgusting display that went on wayyy to long, and was way over played. And these are the same fans that say Cub fans are dumb sheep. I was actually in awe of what I could only characterize as a mass psychosis. Really wierd. I had to catch a bus after riding the 'Link to the West End, so I took off as soon as the final out was made. I came out to the concourse, and the ushers were making everyone exit through the turnstyles. I asked the usher why the large grates were not raised to allow people to get out, and he said that there were too many people outside the stadium, and they were afraid they would rush the building. I was running late, and clearly irritated that I had to stand in line for ten minutes just to get out of the ballpark, but whatever. So, I finally get out, and there were hundreds of people out there hoping just to 'feel the moment', I guess? I had several instances of people wanting to buy my ticket stub. I sold it for $200 to some sucker wearing a Cardinal hat and a McGwire jersey.

 

These fans..., I believe that they would cheer for McGwire if he was subsequently found out to be the southside rapist.

[K-Town]

I was living in Saint Louis in 1998, and I observed firsthand the ridiculousness of that 'fake' race. I was actually at the game where McGwire broke the record, and witnessed the many legions of Cardinal fans, with their hearts palpitating, high fiving (as if THEY did something), and generally worshipping Saint Mark. After McGwire hit the homer to break the record, I clapped politely, then scurried off to the john and grabbed a beer. There were no crowds in the restrooms because the vast majority were busy undulating and prostrating themselves over a home run. It was a disgusting display that went on wayyy to long, and was way over played. And these are the same fans that say Cub fans are dumb sheep. I was actually in awe of what I could only characterize as a mass psychosis. Really wierd. I had to catch a bus after riding the 'Link to the West End, so I took off as soon as the final out was made. I came out to the concourse, and the ushers were making everyone exit through the turnstyles. I asked the usher why the large grates were not raised to allow people to get out, and he said that there were too many people outside the stadium, and they were afraid they would rush the building. I was running late, and clearly irritated that I had to stand in line for ten minutes just to get out of the ballpark, but whatever. So, I finally get out, and there were hundreds of people out there hoping just to 'feel the moment', I guess? I had several instances of people wanting to buy my ticket stub. I sold it for $200 to some sucker wearing a Cardinal hat and a McGwire jersey.

 

These fans..., I believe that they would cheer for McGwire if he was subsequently found out to be the southside rapist.

 

 

First a steroid comparison to murder, and now a rapist.

 

And you think that those Cardinal fans were out of grasp with reality??

 

 

Just because you don't understand how those fans felt about it, that doesn't make it wrong. The fans in St. Louis love their Cardinals like no other. Your post is simply another example of how other teams' fans don't understand how important the Cardinals are to the city of St. Louis. Which is fine. I don't expect you to understand.

[gus_dog]

And you think that those Cardinal fans were out of grasp with reality??

 

Yes, that's it exactly.

 

BTW, I was not comparing steroid using to being a rapist, because that is not a valid comparison. I was merely making a statement to illustrate how maniacal the Cardinal fans were about McGwire. I believe that statement too.

 

The next day, the Post-Dispatch had a full page photo of McGuyver, uh, I mean McGwire in his follow-through after hitting his record-breaking home run on the front page. It was the front page, the whole front page, not the sports page, but the front page (you know where normally an article about a presidential impeachment hearing would be). It had St. Louis Post-Dispatch across the top, and then the picture all the way to the bottom, and across the bottom of the photo, in 1.5 inch red lettering was: JUBILATION!

 

:shock: I was absolutely stunned. I guess I shouldn't have been. That paper is such a rag. It ranks beside the Sun-Times in terms of journalistic abuse. They just fed the frenzy though - it sold papers. I threw the paper away, but my wife picked it out of the dust bin, and said it might be worth some money some day. Good point. We still have it....I should scan it in and post it on this thread.

 

Anyhoo, my point is that it is a game. The greatest game, IMO, but still just a game. The players are people, not gods.

 

To make these things out to be more than that is completely out of touch with reality.

 

Yet another example of out out of hand it was that summer.

[K-Town]

And you think that those Cardinal fans were out of grasp with reality??

 

Yes, that's it exactly.

 

BTW, I was not comparing steroid using to being a rapist, because that is not a valid comparison. I was merely making a statement to illustrate how maniacal the Cardinal fans were about McGwire. I believe that statement too.

 

The next day, the Post-Dispatch had a full page photo of McGuyver, uh, I mean McGwire in his follow-through after hitting his record-breaking home run on the front page. It was the front page, the whole front page, not the sports page, but the front page (you know where normally an article about a presidential impeachment hearing would be). It had St. Louis Post-Dispatch across the top, and then the picture all the way to the bottom, and across the bottom of the photo, in 1.5 inch red lettering was: JUBILATION!

 

:shock: I was absolutely stunned. I guess I shouldn't have been. That paper is such a rag. It ranks beside the Sun-Times in terms of journalistic abuse. They just fed the frenzy though - it sold papers. I threw the paper away, but my wife picked it out of the dust bin, and said it might be worth some money some day. Good point. We still have it....I should scan it in and post it on this thread.

 

Anyhoo, my point is that it is a game. The greatest game, IMO, but still just a game. The players are people, not gods.

 

To make these things out to be more than that is completely out of touch with reality.

 

Yet another example of out out of hand it was that summer.

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan. That doesn't make Cardinal fans wrong. And if you want to read about the impeachment without turning the page, then I suggest you vacation somewhere besides St. Louis in the summertime.

 

 

You're right, it IS a game, played by human beings. That's why this thread is a little bit absurd. McGwire has given millions of dollars to charity, brought alot of joy to St. Louis, been a great P.R. rep for St. Louis, speaks highly of the game and the fans of St. Louis, clearly loves his family and spending time with them............. and yet he should be booed because he "might have" tampered with the integrity of the game....... a GAME, mind you, by using steroids???

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

And you think that those Cardinal fans were out of grasp with reality??

 

Yes, that's it exactly.

 

BTW, I was not comparing steroid using to being a rapist, because that is not a valid comparison. I was merely making a statement to illustrate how maniacal the Cardinal fans were about McGwire. I believe that statement too.

 

The next day, the Post-Dispatch had a full page photo of McGuyver, uh, I mean McGwire in his follow-through after hitting his record-breaking home run on the front page. It was the front page, the whole front page, not the sports page, but the front page (you know where normally an article about a presidential impeachment hearing would be). It had St. Louis Post-Dispatch across the top, and then the picture all the way to the bottom, and across the bottom of the photo, in 1.5 inch red lettering was: JUBILATION!

 

:shock: I was absolutely stunned. I guess I shouldn't have been. That paper is such a rag. It ranks beside the Sun-Times in terms of journalistic abuse. They just fed the frenzy though - it sold papers. I threw the paper away, but my wife picked it out of the dust bin, and said it might be worth some money some day. Good point. We still have it....I should scan it in and post it on this thread.

 

Anyhoo, my point is that it is a game. The greatest game, IMO, but still just a game. The players are people, not gods.

 

To make these things out to be more than that is completely out of touch with reality.

 

Yet another example of out out of hand it was that summer.

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand. You're not a Cardinal fan. That doesn't make Cardinal fans wrong. And if you want to read about the impeachment without turning the page, then I suggest you vacation somewhere besides St. Louis in the summertime.

 

 

You're right, it IS a game, played by human beings. That's why this thread is a little bit absurd. McGwire has given millions of dollars to charity, brought alot of joy to St. Louis, been a great P.R. rep for St. Louis, speaks highly of the game and the fans of St. Louis, clearly loves his family and spending time with them............. and yet he should be booed because he "might have" tampered with the integrity of the game....... a GAME, mind you, by using steroids???

 

If it's just a game, why are you getting so worked up over our comments?