How good is Barry Bonds, exactly?

[CuseCubFan69]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

if he took them. Which hasn't been proven. Innocent until proven guilty

 

He admitted taking them. He said he just didn't know they were steroids. He was told it was magic pixie dust.

 

Was this part of the leaked testimony? I honestly don't remember.

 

I believe it was. Except for the Pixiedust.

[JC]

I agree with Abuck.

 

you may as well just make that your sig. i'm right about pretty much everything.

 

I'd sooner take sensitivity lessons from Goony.

[Derwood]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

if he took them. Which hasn't been proven. Innocent until proven guilty

 

He admitted taking them. He said he just didn't know they were steroids. He was told it was magic pixie dust.

 

Was this part of the leaked testimony? I honestly don't remember.

 

I believe it was. Except for the Pixiedust.

 

So, to be technical, everyone is indicting him on a piece of testimony that wasn't meant to be made public, and which the courts have chosen not to act on to this point. MMMkay.

[abuck1220]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

if he took them. Which hasn't been proven. Innocent until proven guilty

 

He admitted taking them. He said he just didn't know they were steroids. He was told it was magic pixie dust.

 

Was this part of the leaked testimony? I honestly don't remember.

 

I believe it was. Except for the Pixiedust.

 

So, to be technical, everyone is indicting him on a piece of testimony that wasn't meant to be made public, and which the courts have chosen not to act on to this point. MMMkay.

 

they're acting on it...i thought his testimony involved the BALCO situation.

 

you're being extremely generous in giving bonds the benefit of the doubt. he admitted, under oath, that he took steroids. it wasn't supposed to get out, but that doesn't take away from the reliability of the testimony. it's not like a game of telephone where what he said may have gotten distorted.

[Chocolate Milk]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

if he took them. Which hasn't been proven. Innocent until proven guilty

 

He admitted taking them. He said he just didn't know they were steroids. He was told it was magic pixie dust.

 

Was this part of the leaked testimony? I honestly don't remember.

 

I believe it was. Except for the Pixiedust.

 

So, to be technical, everyone is indicting him on a piece of testimony that wasn't meant to be made public, and which the courts have chosen not to act on to this point. MMMkay.

 

Yes. His own admission of doing steroids along with an avalanche of circumstancial evidence make people beleive he did it. Unlike the US Courts, in the court of public opinion, we don't have to assume his innocence. Nor should we in a case where it's pretty clear the dude did steroids.

[katway]

...everyone is indicting him on a piece of testimony that wasn't meant to be made public....

 

No one's indicting him, this isn't a court of law. It seems that people are noting that we shouldn't walk around with blinders on pretending that Barry is clean when he admitted "unintentionally" or "unknowingly" using steroids in sworn testimony. With respect to the tesimony being intended for public consumption, it really doesn't matter in the equation of whether or not Bonds did, in fact, take steroids as he admitted to doing so under oath (why should it matter if he didn't think the press would get ahold of his admission?)... [Note, if the Balco case actually went to trial, then the testimony had the potential to become part of that public forum if Bond's had been called to testify and testified inconsistent with his grand jury testimony. So, when Bond's testified, he knew he was sworn to tell the truth and such testimony had the potential to become public in a trial.]

[Tim]

To answer the original question, Bonds' performance puts him amongst the top 3 hitters ever, in my opinion. Ruth & Williams being the other top two for me. Barry is certainly the greatest hitter we've ever seen, based purely upon what he has accomplished.

 

Do I like Barry? No.

Do I like that he's probably benefited from cheating? No.

Do I think he was on a path to be recognized as one of the 10 greatest before the "cheating" took place? Absolutely.

 

But I'll tell you what, I enjoy watching him hit more than any player, ever. The best swing mechanics, the best eye and the ultimate in coordination. I rather despise the persona (I don't know enough about the man to say anything), hate the actions, but love the hitter. Before he started aging, he was a heck of a fielder, too.

[katway]

There's been a lot of mention that Bonds is the greatest hitter of the modern era or of our time regardless if he used steroids between 2000 and 2004. But, does anyone wonder what kind of stats A Rod or Ken Griffey Junior would have put up on steroids over the same period? Imagine a healthy Ken Griffey Jr. without all the injuries because of steroid injections keeping him healthy. Imagine A Rod with 30 pounds of extra muscle that doesn't take away from his bat speed. :shock:

[Tim]

There's been a lot of mention that Bonds is the greatest hitter of the modern era or of our time regardless if he used steroids between 2000 and 2004. But, does anyone wonder what kind of stats A Rod or Ken Griffey Junior would have put up on steroids over the same period? Imagine a healthy Ken Griffey Jr. without all the injuries because of steroid injections keeping him healthy. Imagine A Rod with 30 pounds of extra muscle that doesn't take away from his bat speed. :shock:

Neither of them has been as good as Barry was pre-1999.

[Wheelimus]

My feelings on the matter

 

Barry without steroids - one of the greatest hitters statistically of all time

 

Barry with steroids - well on his way to being the greatest hitter statistically of all time

 

And it's the latter which makes me sick...

[Derwood]

I guess I'm just splitting hairs betwen admitted steroid use (which MLB can't prosecute) and a positive drug test (which they can).

 

either way, I hold by my argument that steroids or not, he has the best eye at the plate I've ever seen. If steroids added to his HR totals, fine. I think he would still be great if all those HR's were 2B's instead.

[BigbadB]

I despise the man so much that I believe it affects my opinion of his playing abilities. I despise the man so much that I believe that it creates a higher level of belief that he's guilty of steroid usage.

 

It's because of this that I can't list him in my top 10 great players of all time. Biases aside, he's probably the best to ever play the game.

 

What I believe he could have done to pitching in the eras that the other great hitters of the game had the opportunity to face, I believe Barry probably would have had even sicker overall numbers.

 

He can turn on the fastest of fastballs. He can adjust to the best curveballs and off speed pitches.

 

But, his late blooming oversized melon that constantly spews forth nothing but disrespect for the game I love makes it easy for me to simply exclude him from any "greatest" player in the game lists I create.

 

If he were traded to the Cubs this offseason, I'd probably completely change my tune, and I'd all of a sudden feel compassion for all the heat that gets put on him on a daily basis. Since he's still a Giant, I have nothing more to say. :D

[thedaymen]

On Barry:I couldn't care less about Barry Bonds, not a lick, and quite frankly wish he would go away. I saw him play in Baltimore a couple of years ago and he got intentionally walked 3 or 4 times. Friends later said, "stinks you didn't get to see him hit." My response was, "I can boo him just as well when he walks as when he doesn't."

 

Did Barry do roids?

Yes. We all know he did. I can't send him to jail for it, but I know he did and anyone that wants to investigate it at all knows he did. I mean, the dude admitted it...I'm stunned people can still, in an Internet chat room, not the court of law, say allegedly took sterroids.

 

Should Barry be in the HOF?

No. He cheated. There is no constitutional right to be in the HOF, so don't give me that "innocent until proven guilty."

 

Look at it this way, if Andre Dawson had been able to duplicate his best season even once more, he would be in the HOF, no question. But, to the best of my knowledge and personal beliefs, he played by the rules so people like Jay Mariotti won't vote him in. Fine with me. I don't support the Hall anyways.

 

But sterroids don't help you play that much better

Thats true in one sense, and not true in another.

 

If I were to start taking flax seed oil like Barry, I wouldn't suddenly go from "below average softball player" to "Semi-pro baseball player." It wouldn't even happen overtime...

 

 

....unless I worked out like mad. The most common sterroids allow your muscles to regenerate much quicker a) reducing the pain of workouts and b) making you able to work out more. Thats a huge advantage over people that don't dope up.

[neely crenshaw]

if he stab the umpire and pissed on a mascot he also would not be a cheater. is he a cheater because babe ruth's generation didn't lift weights? steroids were not not against the rules so he can not be a cheater. you can say it tarnishes his stats, but he did not break rules.

gaylord perry is the all time leader in real cheating, yet he is glorified and in the hall of fame...how come?

last, steroids or not, bonds has the shortest most technically correct swing ever. he also has an ungodly eye and unmatched patience...all of these are not effected by steroids.

last, barry is still huge and barry is still dropping bombs perhaps you are over estimating how much of barry was because steroid use (or possible use).

[katway]

There's been a lot of mention that Bonds is the greatest hitter of the modern era or of our time regardless if he used steroids between 2000 and 2004. But, does anyone wonder what kind of stats A Rod or Ken Griffey Junior would have put up on steroids over the same period? Imagine a healthy Ken Griffey Jr. without all the injuries because of steroid injections keeping him healthy. Imagine A Rod with 30 pounds of extra muscle that doesn't take away from his bat speed. :shock:

Neither of them has been as good as Barry was pre-1999.

 

Junior was at least equal or better than Barry pre-1999, check the stats. Griffey's plate discipline was not as good as Bonds, but his eye was far better than Bonds at a similar age. A Rod was just getting started, but was far better than Bonds his first few years in the league.

 

Stats 1996 through 1998

Bonds: 42, 40, & 37 HRs; 129, 101, & 102 RBIs; .308, .291, .303 AVG

 

Griffey : 49, 56, & 56 HRs; 140, 147, & 146 RBIs; .303, .304, & .284 AVG

[Tim]

On Barry:I couldn't care less about Barry Bonds, not a lick, and quite frankly wish he would go away. I saw him play in Baltimore a couple of years ago and he got intentionally walked 3 or 4 times. Friends later said, "stinks you didn't get to see him hit." My response was, "I can boo him just as well when he walks as when he doesn't."

If you feel compelled to boo him, I'd say you care about Barry quite a bit. Unless you just like having any ol' excuse to boo someone.

[Derwood]

Ty Cobb sharpened his spikes. Gaylord Perry threw spit balls. People steal signs, scuff balls, and a huge variety of other actions that are cheating. There is some speculation that the 1917 World Series wasn't the only one that was thrown to get a big pay off.

 

Conversely, shouldould Ruth, Cobb, etc. records get an asterisk because they played in an era where non-whites were barred from playing in the MLB?

[abuck1220]

if he stab the umpire and pissed on a mascot he also would not be a cheater. is he a cheater because babe ruth's generation didn't lift weights?

 

of course not. lifting weights isn't illegal.

 

steroids were not not against the rules so he can not be a cheater. you can say it tarnishes his stats, but he did not break rules.

 

yes he did. steroids are illegal.

[thedaymen]

if he stab the umpire and pissed on a mascot he also would not be a cheater. is he a cheater because babe ruth's generation didn't lift weights? steroids were not not against the rules so he can not be a cheater. you can say it tarnishes his stats, but he did not break rules.

gaylord perry is the all time leader in real cheating, yet he is glorified and in the hall of fame...how come?

last, steroids or not, bonds has the shortest most technically correct swing ever. he also has an ungodly eye and unmatched patience...all of these are not effected by steroids.

last, barry is still huge and barry is still dropping bombs perhaps you are over estimating how much of barry was because steroid use (or possible use).

 

I'm pretty sure it doesn't say you can't spit on an umpire, but Alomar got suspended for that. I mean, the rulebook doesn't have to spell every damm thing thing out in excruciating detail, does it? HE BROKE A LAW TO IMPROVE HIS PLAYING SKILLS.

 

Thanks to his continually lieing about taking sterroids in the past, it is just as logical to assume he's on something MLB doesn't test for as not.

 

If you enjoy watching him that much; go ahead an enjoy!

[abuck1220]

Ty Cobb sharpened his spikes. Gaylord Perry threw spit balls. People steal signs, scuff balls, and a huge variety of other actions that are cheating. There is some speculation that the 1917 World Series wasn't the only one that was thrown to get a big pay off.

 

Conversely, shouldould Ruth, Cobb, etc. records get an asterisk because they played in an era where non-whites were barred from playing in the MLB?

 

when ruth was playing against all white players, so was everybody else. when bonds was using steroids, not everybody else was using them. he had control over the advantage that he gained, ruth did not.

[katway]

Illegal or not, Bonds voluntarily gave everyone a reason to doubt his accomplishments. I'll take him up on that offer.

[thedaymen]

If you feel compelled to boo him, I'd say you care about Barry quite a bit. Unless you just like having any ol' excuse to boo someone.

 

 

Hmmmm, fair point. I guess I should have said, "I don't care how good he plays or how good his numbers are" not "I don't care about Barry Bonds." I clearly care enough that he's my least favorite player and the only baseball player I boo who I haven't personally witnessed being an ass (or Robbie Alomar).

[Tim]

There's been a lot of mention that Bonds is the greatest hitter of the modern era or of our time regardless if he used steroids between 2000 and 2004. But, does anyone wonder what kind of stats A Rod or Ken Griffey Junior would have put up on steroids over the same period? Imagine a healthy Ken Griffey Jr. without all the injuries because of steroid injections keeping him healthy. Imagine A Rod with 30 pounds of extra muscle that doesn't take away from his bat speed. :shock:

Neither of them has been as good as Barry was pre-1999.

 

Junior was at least equal or better than Barry pre-1999, check the stats. Griffey's plate discipline was not as good as Bonds, but his eye was far better than Bonds at a similar age. A Rod was just getting started, but was far better than Bonds his first few years in the league.

 

Stats 1996 through 1998

Bonds: 42, 40, & 37 HRs; 129, 101, & 102 RBIs; .308, .291, .303 AVG

 

Griffey : 49, 56, & 56 HRs; 140, 147, & 146 RBIs; .303, .304, & .284 AVG

I really don't care about RBI - that's a team measure based upon who is on base in front of that player and how often they are given the opportunities to drive in the runs.

 

What I do care about is a player's overall performance, of which walks are a big part. Limiting the discussion to the years you picked to make things look as equal for Griffey as possible, here are the numbers they put up:

 

               Avg   OBP   SLG
Barry   1996  .308  .461  .615
       1997  .291  .446  .585 
       1998  .303  .438  .609

Junior  1996  .303  .392  .628
       1997  .304  .382  .646
       1998  .284  .365  .611

Junior has an edge in SLG, but Barry just dominates in making fewer outs than KGJ. To put that in perspective, let's look at more advanced metrics for those seasons:

 

               EqA  BRAA  VORP
Barry   1996  .362   82   98.1
       1997  .349   73   95.8
       1998  .348   74   92.7

Junior  1996  .318   72   87.8
       1997  .324   65   99.8
       1998  .310   53   85.8

I have to admit that it is closer than I would have thought. Junior actually beats Barry in one stat in one year. However, this is the sampling of years that makes Juniors case most strongly. Looking at VORP, for example, Griffey only tops Barry twice in the 90's. I think Barry is in the top 10 in every single season during that time frame. Not only was his peak higher than anyone else's, he was also astonishingly consistent from season to season.

[OleMissCub]

How can a man who has a career batting average of .300 and in his 19th season not have 3000 hits be considered the greatest hitter of all time???

 

Taking into account his steals, homers, doubles, etc, he's certainly among the elite players of all time. But best hitter??

 

Hell, Clemente had 3000 hits in only 17 seasons, this is Bonds' 19th year to play in the bigs and he is still 300 short of 3000. Ty Cobb and Hank Aaron got 3000 after only 15 years.

 

I mean, Barry Bonds has amazing numbers when compared with the rest of players throughout history. But what makes him any better than Mays, Ruth, Aaron, Cobb, Williams, Musial? I guess the past several years of hitting homers with ease puts him into the category of being the greatest of all time. Power numbers aside, he's hardly in my top 10 best hitters of all time.

 

C'mon people, stop thinking so short-sighted. His batting average for his career is .300 and would be below 300 if his past couple of years weren't so incredible.

[Tim]

How can a man who has a career batting average of .300 and in his 19th season not have 3000 hits be considered the greatest hitter of all time???

 

Taking into account his steals, homers, doubles, etc, he's certainly among the elite players of all time. But best hitter??

 

Hell, Clemente had 3000 hits in only 17 seasons, this is Bonds' 19th year to play in the bigs and he is still 300 short of 3000. Ty Cobb and Hank Aaron got 3000 after only 15 years.

 

I mean, Barry Bonds has amazing numbers when compared with the rest of players throughout history. But what makes him any better than Mays, Ruth, Aaron, Cobb, Williams, Musial? I guess the past several years of hitting homers with ease puts him into the category of being the greatest of all time. Power numbers aside, he's hardly in my top 10 best hitters of all time.

 

C'mon people, stop thinking so short-sighted. His batting average for his career is .300 and would be below 300 if his past couple of years weren't so incredible.

The only reason he doesn't have 3000 hits is because he has walked more often than any of the above players. Compare any of those players other than Williams and Ruth to Bonds and see how many outs they made. Making outs is still bad, right? Being a great hitter is not only about batting average. Being a great hitter is having the largest possible impact on the game while at the plate.