MADDUX VESTING PARTY!!!

[KatJ]

To my mind Maddux is not worth $9 million next season but I don't really mind because the Cubs can still afford anyone they might want and Maddux is making a positive contribution.

 

Exactly. I'll feel a lot better about that $9 mil, though, if Hendry actually signs or trades for another bone fide starter. I don't want Dusty messing around with the rotation in the likely event that one of our vaunted staff gets injured. The way he used Rusch and particularly Dempster to fill in holes looked like a monkey betting at the craps table to me.

 

I like to think of some of the $9 mil as punitive damages for letting Maddux go in the first place.

[UBlink]

Maybe a reasonable way to compare the full season for a member of the starting rotation would be to include the results for the substitutes when the regular starter is unavailable. Somebody has to pitch every 5th day. I suspect if you added Wood's replacement's stats to Wood's own for the last 2 years it wouldn't look as good as Maddux's.

[Laura]

well, he has been our second best pitcher the last 2 years.....

 

Um, sure, if you're simply looking at Wins:

 

Zambrano - 28-13

Maddux - 27-22

Prior - 16-9

Wood - 11-13

 

But he has the worst two-year ERA of the four, the lowest K/9IP, and this year, the worst WHIP. He also leads the 2005 Cubs in losses, HR allowed, Hits allowed, lowest Pitches/Start, and earned runs.

 

The counting stats will be partly a function of innings pitched. I don't doubt hits allowed; I'll note that Prior, Williams and Wood have higher HR/9 rates (didn't bother with Wood's splits; he hasn't been healthy this year, anyway). None of them are good HR/9 rates.

 

I always figured Maddux would vest. He was a far better bet than Wood vesting his '07 option.

[hardcorecubfan]

well, he has been our second best pitcher the last 2 years.....

 

Um, sure, if you're simply looking at Wins:

 

Zambrano - 28-13

Maddux - 27-22

Prior - 16-9

Wood - 11-13

 

But he has the worst two-year ERA of the four, the lowest K/9IP, and this year, the worst WHIP. He also leads the 2005 Cubs in losses, HR allowed, Hits allowed, lowest Pitches/Start, and earned runs.

 

Wow a terrible year Greg is having with a potential of 15 wins. His presents on the bench is worrth the money that is paid out, esp. with wunderkind Kerry always injured and wunderkind Bob (refuse to call him Bobby, he's a man) Brownlie not panning out

[Lefty]

i don't see what the big deal is about a guy who 'eats innings'. anybody (when healthy, of course) can eat innings if the manager just leaves him in there to get hit. hell, rusch could have pitched seven innings in each of his four starts prior to last night...he would have given up a crapload of runs, but i guess eating innings is some kind of accomplishment.

 

The difference is that Maddux eats innings with an average performance level. That is worth something, though not what the Cubs are paying.

 

As I've posted before, we have to look at the Maddux signing, and the resulting loss of Clement, as the Cubs' attempt to win it all in '04 at any cost. Alas, it didn't work.

[goonys evil twin]

Wow a terrible year Greg is having with a potential of 15 wins. His presents on the bench is worrth the money that is paid out, esp. with wunderkind Kerry always injured and wunderkind Bob (refuse to call him Bobby, he's a man) Brownlie not panning out

 

Can someone please provide some sort of proof of how his presence on the bench is worth anything other than just spouting off the same tired line over and over? It doesn't look like him leaving Atlanta hurt them, and the Cubs haven't gotten any better since he's arrived. No pitcher has improved. Exactly what has his presence meant to this team? Is it possible that all this talk of Greg's mentoring ability was nothing but talk? Could it have just been a bunch of overhyped romanticism fueled on by the conventional wisdom of a sport that feeds on BS, myths, superstitions, good ole' day gobbledygook and the unsubstantiated subjective ramblings of a collective group of people who absolutely despise the thought of objective analysis?

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

i dont' know...i guess i don't really care if our bullpen gets taxed. everyone out there sucks anyway, and when you're carrying 19 pitchers, nobody should really get that worn down. maybe i'd feel different if we had the same guys out there all season, each with their own defined roles. a guy only going five innings w/ that setup would screw with the use of the pen more.

 

i'd rather have five good innings than six so-so innings.

 

This is probably a roundabout discussion, because both sides have valid points. But perhaps the reason we've had a merry-go-round bullpen this year is because they were so taxed at the start. None of them could handle the workload, so we had to bring up more and more guys. A fresh bullpen is more likely to pitch well than a taxed one. But I still see your point.

 

It's not like Maddux has been horrible when he's out there eating innings.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Wow a terrible year Greg is having with a potential of 15 wins. His presents on the bench is worrth the money that is paid out, esp. with wunderkind Kerry always injured and wunderkind Bob (refuse to call him Bobby, he's a man) Brownlie not panning out

 

Can someone please provide some sort of proof of how his presence on the bench is worth anything other than just spouting off the same tired line over and over? It doesn't look like him leaving Atlanta hurt them, and the Cubs haven't gotten any better since he's arrived. No pitcher has improved. Exactly what has his presence meant to this team? Is it possible that all this talk of Greg's mentoring ability was nothing but talk? Could it have just been a bunch of overhyped romanticism fueled on by the conventional wisdom of a sport that feeds on BS, myths, superstitions, good ole' day gobbledygook and the unsubstantiated subjective ramblings of a collective group of people who absolutely despise the thought of objective analysis?

 

Eh, a lot of our pitcher's have been quoted as saying Greg's presence has helped them in their games. He's helped them with the little things. They may not have performed well, but without him, they might have been worse. I think it was Koronka or another one of the young guys that said that Greg would help them out with how to pitch certain hitters, and where their hot zones were, etc.

 

His advice isn't worth 9 million, but it adds to his overall value, even if it's slightly.

[goonys evil twin]

i dont' know...i guess i don't really care if our bullpen gets taxed. everyone out there sucks anyway, and when you're carrying 19 pitchers, nobody should really get that worn down. maybe i'd feel different if we had the same guys out there all season, each with their own defined roles. a guy only going five innings w/ that setup would screw with the use of the pen more.

 

i'd rather have five good innings than six so-so innings.

 

This is probably a roundabout discussion, because both sides have valid points. But perhaps the reason we've had a merry-go-round bullpen this year is because they were so taxed at the start. None of them could handle the workload, so we had to bring up more and more guys. A fresh bullpen is more likely to pitch well than a taxed one. But I still see your point.

 

It's not like Maddux has been horrible when he's out there eating innings.

 

Maddux getting shelled early played a role in the attrition of the pen. He's had 5 outings when he's given up as many runs as he has innings pitched, and there have been another 3-4 when he's been just 1 run shy of that mark. He's had 8 starts of 5 IP or less. Much of this was a repeat of last year. Greg has been consistent in that he's made all his starts, and racks of the innings, but from start to start you never know if you'll get 4 IP 5 ER, 7 IP 3 ER, or 9 IP 2 ER.

[abuck1220]

i dont' know...i guess i don't really care if our bullpen gets taxed. everyone out there sucks anyway, and when you're carrying 19 pitchers, nobody should really get that worn down. maybe i'd feel different if we had the same guys out there all season, each with their own defined roles. a guy only going five innings w/ that setup would screw with the use of the pen more.

 

i'd rather have five good innings than six so-so innings.

 

This is probably a roundabout discussion, because both sides have valid points. But perhaps the reason we've had a merry-go-round bullpen this year is because they were so taxed at the start. None of them could handle the workload, so we had to bring up more and more guys. A fresh bullpen is more likely to pitch well than a taxed one. But I still see your point.

 

It's not like Maddux has been horrible when he's out there eating innings.

 

no, he hasn't been horrible. but he hasn't been worth $9 mil either. i see what you're saying though.

[goonys evil twin]

Eh, a lot of our pitcher's have been quoted as saying Greg's presence has helped them in their games. He's helped them with the little things. They may not have performed well, but without him, they might have been worse.

 

And a lot of guys say they like playing for Dusty. Bottom line is it hasn't helped with results. I think it's a tremendous stretch to suggest they'd have performed worse without him.

 

Maddux isn't a teacher. The others aren't learning through osmosis. This whole story line is nothing but filler and distraction from the basic facts.

[hardcorecubfan]

 

Can someone please provide some sort of proof of how his presence on the bench is worth anything other than just spouting off the same tired line over and over? It doesn't look like him leaving Atlanta hurt them, and the Cubs haven't gotten any better since he's arrived. No pitcher has improved. Exactly what has his presence meant to this team? Is it possible that all this talk of Greg's mentoring ability was nothing but talk? Could it have just been a bunch of overhyped romanticism fueled on by the conventional wisdom of a sport that feeds on BS, myths, superstitions, good ole' day gobbledygook and the unsubstantiated subjective ramblings of a collective group of people who absolutely despise the thought of objective analysis?

 

he doesn't have to have spoken mentoring but the sheer fact he is repected, gets there early, works on pitches he does have down has a system for tracking hitters, which Prior has adopted, is a big plus. He is a leader by example.

[wolf stansson]

Why does the run support matter? It's not like he has a .900 OPS to help make up for the difference, it's out of his control.

Jason Marquis thinks that it doesn't help much at all.

[EricG]

I am rooting for him to get 15 wins. It's kind of hopeless, he needs 4 wins and has maybe 5 starts left.

 

I counted six, I may be wrong. But hey, six starts gives him two more chances, granted it isn't much, but it's something.

assuming a 5 man rotation , give Zambrano and Prior extra days off with the off days. could squeeze an extra start in there by skipping a guy.

[Dr. Cub]

Eh, a lot of our pitcher's have been quoted as saying Greg's presence has helped them in their games. He's helped them with the little things. They may not have performed well, but without him, they might have been worse.

 

And a lot of guys say they like playing for Dusty. Bottom line is it hasn't helped with results. I think it's a tremendous stretch to suggest they'd have performed worse without him.

 

Maddux isn't a teacher. The others aren't learning through osmosis. This whole story line is nothing but filler and distraction from the basic facts.

 

Actually, it would be diffusion. Osmosis is the movement of water across a membrane. I agree with you though on this false sense of comfort that Maddux is going to spew forth this wealth of knowledge that will make our pitchers all the next Clemens or Nolan Ryan. I'm still waiting for the "spewing". :pukel:

[neely crenshaw]

you can not just factor in a "when healthy" whenever it fits your argument. wood has been an absolute non factor for 2 seasons. it's great that he has a better era but that and a quarter can get you a cup of coffee. same with prior...it's great that has a better era but a better question is how valuable has a pitcher been that has 25 total decisions in 2 seasons?

i am really sorry to tell you that maddux has out performed everyone but zambrano since july 1. prior is not close except in wins. and as you all say wins don't matter it's era..etc.

 

prior and wood may be better but half of their starts it's been rusch or nitre or hill or williams not prior and wood...so who has been our second best pitcher?

[Chocolate Milk]

I still contend that the amount extra we are paying for Maddux has little impact on this team or who they are going to be able to sign.

[Careless]

I really didn't think (when we signed him) that he'd be able to boost his innings per game at his age.

guess 2002 and 2003 were just flukes

[neely crenshaw]

here some more for those of you dogging maddux.

wood has missed 30+ starts in the last 2 years.....that's really helpful

this year he gave up 10 hr's in 10 starts...that would be 29 in 29 starts. prior has given up 23 in 22 starts...maddux has given up 24 in 29 starts.

prior has missed 16+ starts..he has 6 fewer starts this year(than maddux) and given up 1 fewer hr. his era has gone from 2.66 on july1 to 3.70 today. maddux has gone from 5.02 on that date to 4.40. his era during that span is 3.50. prior's almost 6.00(5.86) during that time span prior is 6-3 and maddux is 4-6.

prior's era in 21 starts last year was 4.02

maddux's in 33 starts was 4.02

 

maddux at this poit in his career has some bad games. when he is off, he is really off. that does not happen very often but when it does it sky rockets his era. he has had 3 terrible starts out of 29. without those his era is 3.70, same as prior. i can certainly live with a number 3 starter that puts out 29-30 very good starts and 3-4 poor ones.

 

i hate to say this but save for a very good april and may this season, prior's stats have not been as good as maddux's...not even factoring his missed starts. fewer wins, higher era, more hr's...i don't know what you want to base it on, but for thses two seasons maddux has outperformed prior and been much more durable....now if you want to talk strikeouts then wood and prior have been better.

[goonys evil twin]

here some more for those of you dogging maddux.

 

i can certainly live with a number 3 starter that puts out 29-30 very good starts and 3-4 poor ones.

 

That is a terrible mischaracterization of the truth.

 

Maddux has had much more than 3-4 poor starts. And he's had nowhere near 29-30 very good starts.

 

Your only support for Maddux seems to be ripping on the other starters. That's called dragging people down to your level when you can't elevate yourself, and it's a very weak strategy.

 

I "dog" Maddux because he's not very good, but he's paid like a very good pitcher, and there's no hope for improvement.

[CuseCubFan69]

I think that Maddux has earned his money a lot more than Wood has for the last 2 years. Both have been overpayed there is no denying that.

[neely crenshaw]

you don't think they would have performed worse without maddux? did you watch mitre fill in for prior at the start of last season? how about rusch for wood the last 4 weeks with a 9 era? without maddux we would have had mitre in the roatation all last year and this year...not too mention williams and rusch....can you say colorado rockies record?

 

if you want to talk wasted money...why not start with wood? and then nomar, or jobo,hawlins and sammy being paid to play elsewhere...how about patterson? there's 3/5 mil well spent.

 

and clement...please. whatwould his record be here? 4-11? or worse. you want to talk run support start with clement. he has a higher era than maddux, and his run supprt is out of this world. do you think the cubs could score 11 runs a game for any pitcher? yes, 8 mil a year for a guy who still hadn't won 15 ina year is much better than 9 mil for a guy who basically does it every year.

[Mizzou]

I think that Maddux has earned his money a lot more than Wood has for the last 2 years. Both have been overpayed there is no denying that.

 

You're absolutely right. Yet not too many people complain about Wood's contract for next year.

 

I know I'm not going to boo when he records out number five tonight.

[imb]

No one complains about it because it makes no sense too, the contract he signed was a reasonable one at the time it was signed. The fact that Wood hasn't earned his money is something that you just have to chalk up to the Baseball God's. Injuries happen, and he was an injury risk. As much of an injury risk as he was though, he was just as capable of becoming a truly dominant pitcher.

 

On the other hand, Maddux's option was something everyone was worried about at the time he signed. The fact that our worst fears about the contract (Not winning in 04, becoming less effective in 05) came true is why everyone is upset.

[goonys evil twin]

I think that Maddux has earned his money a lot more than Wood has for the last 2 years. Both have been overpayed there is no denying that.

 

You're absolutely right. Yet not too many people complain about Wood's contract for next year.

 

I know I'm not going to boo when he records out number five tonight.

 

It's not a matter of booing the guy. It'll be pretty crippling if Wood fails to live up to his contract next year. But at least there's a chance he can be very good as he was in both 02 and 03. With Maddux, there's isn't a chance he'll live up to his deal.