MADDUX VESTING PARTY!!!

[neely crenshaw]

i removed his 3 worst starts. they were ones where he went 3,4 and 5 innings. he gave up 7,6 and 6 runs. without those starts he is 11-8 with a 3.70 era. prior is 11-6 with a 3.69 in his 21 starts.

maddux era has continued to come down, which it did last year also. he got better as the season went along. prior's continues to grow, he is getting worse.

i am not dragging anyone down, i am just pointing out facts. prior and wood have not pitched as well as maddux overthe last 2 years.

[Joe_Cub]

Maddux is a class act. I always hear about all these other pitchers who can supposedly pitch better than he could but they never actually do it for more than a couple starts, like Williams and Mitre and Rusch and whoever else. He'll be overpaid next year but I'd rather pay somebody who's pitching than pay something who hardly ever does.

 

Thanks for the notice because I will party when he vests! :lol:

[UK1679666180]

i removed his 3 worst starts. they were ones where he went 3,4 and 5 innings. he gave up 7,6 and 6 runs. without those starts he is 11-8 with a 3.70 era. prior is 11-6 with a 3.69 in his 21 starts.

maddux era has continued to come down, which it did last year also. he got better as the season went along. prior's continues to grow, he is getting worse.

i am not dragging anyone down, i am just pointing out facts. prior and wood have not pitched as well as maddux overthe last 2 years.

 

Take away Prior's 3 worst starts...

 

Or take away Maddux's 3 best starts.

 

Prior and Wood haven't pitched as often as Maddux is probably the most accurate statement I can come up with.

[Mizzou]

I think that Maddux has earned his money a lot more than Wood has for the last 2 years. Both have been overpayed there is no denying that.

 

You're absolutely right. Yet not too many people complain about Wood's contract for next year.

 

I know I'm not going to boo when he records out number five tonight.

 

It's not a matter of booing the guy. It'll be pretty crippling if Wood fails to live up to his contract next year. But at least there's a chance he can be very good as he was in both 02 and 03. With Maddux, there's isn't a chance he'll live up to his deal.

 

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. I just hate to see so much animosity towards Maddux when he's far from the only one who's making more than what he's worth.

[Chocolate Milk]

So whats the impact? We can complain all day (rightly) that he is being overpaid but is it something that is actually going to effect this team in going out and getting players we need? I personally, don't think it will effect us in any meaningful way.

[Careless]

i removed his 3 worst starts. they were ones where he went 3,4 and 5 innings. he gave up 7,6 and 6 runs. without those starts he is 11-8 with a 3.70 era. prior is 11-6 with a 3.69 in his 21 starts.

maddux era has continued to come down, which it did last year also. he got better as the season went along. prior's continues to grow, he is getting worse.

i am not dragging anyone down, i am just pointing out facts. prior and wood have not pitched as well as maddux overthe last 2 years.

 

Take away Prior's 3 worst starts...

Done. Prior now has a 2.72 ERA and is 11-3

[goonys evil twin]

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. I just hate to see so much animosity towards Maddux when he's far from the only one who's making more than what he's worth.

 

My animosity is toward Hendry for once again overpaying for underperformance.

[JC]

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. I just hate to see so much animosity towards Maddux when he's far from the only one who's making more than what he's worth.

 

My animosity is toward Hendry for once again overpaying for underperformance.

 

Exactly. This is an issue that probably is more relevant to the Cubs' poor planning and lack of vision. Maddux's option for 400 innings wasn't ever really in question. Being the icon that he is, Maddux was never going to be sat down, no matter how much he struggled. In addition, his injury history (or lack thereof) and his yearly accumulated innings numbers left little doubt that Maddux's option would vest.

 

Maddux's $9M in 2006 can't be justified as money the Cubs expect him to earn. Even if you average out his salary for 3 years, $8M is too much to have expected to spend on him.

 

The Cubs are paying for past performance and will likely suffer for it.

[Knightlife_in_Lubbock]

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. I just hate to see so much animosity towards Maddux when he's far from the only one who's making more than what he's worth.

 

My animosity is toward Hendry for once again overpaying for underperformance.

 

Exactly. This is an issue that probably is more relevant to the Cubs' poor planning and lack of vision. Maddux's option for 400 innings wasn't ever really in question. Being the icon that he is, Maddux was never going to be sat down, no matter how much he struggled. In addition, his injury history (or lack thereof) and his yearly accumulated innings numbers left little doubt that Maddux's option would vest.

 

 

Maddux's $9M in 2006 can't be justified as money the Cubs expect him to earn. Even if you average out his salary for 3 years, $8M is too much to have expected to spend on him.

 

The Cubs are paying for past performance and will likely suffer for it.

 

Based on last year's and this year's money and games started and won

 

 

                     Total Sal    GS     W       $/GS                  $/W

Maddux               $15mill      62      27     $241,935           $555,555

Wood                 $17.5mill    32      11     $546,875           $1,590,909

Prior                $6.7mill     44      16     $152,272            $418,750

Z                    $4.21mill    59      28     $71,355              $150,357

[Brian]

Hector Luna flies out for Maddux's 400th inning.

[Laura]

Wow a terrible year Greg is having with a potential of 15 wins. His presents on the bench is worrth the money that is paid out, esp. with wunderkind Kerry always injured and wunderkind Bob (refuse to call him Bobby, he's a man) Brownlie not panning out

 

Can someone please provide some sort of proof of how his presence on the bench is worth anything other than just spouting off the same tired line over and over? It doesn't look like him leaving Atlanta hurt them, and the Cubs haven't gotten any better since he's arrived. No pitcher has improved. Exactly what has his presence meant to this team? Is it possible that all this talk of Greg's mentoring ability was nothing but talk? Could it have just been a bunch of overhyped romanticism fueled on by the conventional wisdom of a sport that feeds on BS, myths, superstitions, good ole' day gobbledygook and the unsubstantiated subjective ramblings of a collective group of people who absolutely despise the thought of objective analysis?

 

Eh, a lot of our pitcher's have been quoted as saying Greg's presence has helped them in their games. He's helped them with the little things. They may not have performed well, but without him, they might have been worse. I think it was Koronka or another one of the young guys that said that Greg would help them out with how to pitch certain hitters, and where their hot zones were, etc.

 

His advice isn't worth 9 million, but it adds to his overall value, even if it's slightly.

 

Zambrano is the most recent pitcher to say that he's learned a lot from Maddux over the past couple of seasons. They've all said similar things; you can either believe they're telling the truth or believe they're conspiring to shovel the B.S.

 

If past performance is brought up, then contract years 1 & 2 (this year and last year) should be viewed in the context of future performance when the contract was signed. Makes the money spent much more palatable.

 

Maddux's contract is the least of the Cubs problems.

[Laura]

P.S. Party on! http://67.18.37.15/2643/156/emo/th_rocker.gif

[neely crenshaw]

lousy ol' greg maddux is once again your team's leader in wins and innings pitched.

 

if you would like to say he is overpaid, fine. there is absolutely no way to argue that he hasn't been at least our second best and second most valuable starter over the last 2 years(whuch is what the statement was)

[Illini Iceman]

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. I just hate to see so much animosity towards Maddux when he's far from the only one who's making more than what he's worth.

 

My animosity is toward Hendry for once again overpaying for underperformance.

 

Exactly. This is an issue that probably is more relevant to the Cubs' poor planning and lack of vision. Maddux's option for 400 innings wasn't ever really in question. Being the icon that he is, Maddux was never going to be sat down, no matter how much he struggled. In addition, his injury history (or lack thereof) and his yearly accumulated innings numbers left little doubt that Maddux's option would vest.

 

Maddux's $9M in 2006 can't be justified as money the Cubs expect him to earn. Even if you average out his salary for 3 years, $8M is too much to have expected to spend on him.

 

The Cubs are paying for past performance and will likely suffer for it.

 

How will they suffer for it? They are going to have more money to spend this offseason than there will be quality players to spend it on. Should they have saved the money to re-sign Clement? No thanks, his contract is longer term and he has not pitched any better. Could they have saved it and make a run a Burnett? Only if you want another guy that will probably be on the shelf half the year like Wood.

 

Hendry is right where he wants to be from a payroll standpoint (though obviously not from a team success perspective). The Maddux contract will not stop him from signing anyone he wants this offseason.

 

Even if he is the fifth starter he is a benefit to the team. If anything, the 2004 and 2005 Cubs have let down Greg Maddux, not vice versa.

[Derwood]

lousy ol' greg maddux is once again your team's leader in wins and innings pitched.

 

if you would like to say he is overpaid, fine. there is absolutely no way to argue that he hasn't been at least our second best and second most valuable starter over the last 2 years(whuch is what the statement was)

 

So wins and IP are the two most important stats for a pitcher? It doesn't matter that his WHIP and ERA are up this year, as are his walks? Or that he leads the team in wild pitches? Has a .310 OBA, .440 OpSLG? Leads the team in earned runs, TBA and losses?

 

I'm not saying he isn't a durable pitcher, but just because he eats innings doesn't make him a $9 million pitcher (considering that Prior is 3x the pitcher at 1/3 the salary).He leads the team in IP (until Z pitches tonight) but is just 3rd in QS and 2nd in IP/GS. He's clearly the third best pitcher on the team behind Zambrano and Prior.

[goonys evil twin]

lousy ol' greg maddux is once again your team's leader in wins and innings pitched.

 

He's also running away with the team lead in losses. (he's only tied for the team lead in wins, not the leader)

[Chocolate Milk]

.The Cubs are paying for past performance and will likely suffer for it.

 

How will they suffer for it? They are going to have more money to spend this offseason than there will be quality players to spend it on. Should they have saved the money to re-sign Clement? No thanks, his contract is longer term and he has not pitched any better. Could they have saved it and make a run a Burnett? Only if you want another guy that will probably be on the shelf half the year like Wood.

 

Hendry is right where he wants to be from a payroll standpoint (though obviously not from a team success perspective). The Maddux contract will not stop him from signing anyone he wants this offseason.

 

This is correct and the crux of the issue. No one seems to want to address it however.

[goonys evil twin]

The Maddux contract will not stop him from signing anyone he wants this offseason.

 

This is correct and the crux of the issue. No one seems to want to address it however.

 

I'm not sure how that is at all correct, or the crux.

 

First off, you have no idea who he wants to sign. Secondly, simply signing guys is not the only way to acquire players or payroll. Every dollar spent affects the budget.

[Chocolate Milk]

The Maddux contract will not stop him from signing anyone he wants this offseason.

 

This is correct and the crux of the issue. No one seems to want to address it however.

 

I'm not sure how that is at all correct, or the crux.

 

First off, you have no idea who he wants to sign. Secondly, simply signing guys is not the only way to acquire players or payroll. Every dollar spent affects the budget.

 

It's absolutely the crux of the issue. What's the point of discussing the money we're paying him unless it's in regards to how it could be spent this year? It only effects this offseason and with the amount of money that the Cubs have to spend, I think it will effect them little, if not at all. It's not like Greg's option vested for the next 10 years. He's on the books next year and that's it. If the Cubs really want to get someone, either by trade or by free agency, Greg contract shouldn't be holding anything up.

 

I agree with everyone that it was a bad contract and he is being overpaid. I don't agree that it's going to have any real impact.

[goonys evil twin]

He's on the books next year and that's it. If the Cubs really want to get someone, either by trade or by free agency, Greg contract shouldn't be holding anything up.

 

I agree with everyone that it was a bad contract and he is being overpaid. I don't agree that it's going to have any real impact.

 

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

If it did, then you'd have to say that nobody's contract situation ever affects the team's payroll.

 

You add qualifiers like "really" want, and "shouldn't", but the fact is that $9m is $9m. It's 9% of the payroll and significantly affects what you can or cannot do with the rest of the payroll. It has an affect, there is no argument against that fact.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

lousy ol' greg maddux is once again your team's leader in wins and innings pitched.

 

He's also running away with the team lead in losses. (he's only tied for the team lead in wins, not the leader)

 

As for Maddux's losses on the year.

5/20 vs. CHW - 7.0 IP, 3 ER (Cubs scored 1)

7/16 vs. PIT - 8.0 IP, 2 ER (Cubs scored 0)

8/06 vs. NYM - 7.0 IP, 2 ER (Cubs scored 0)

8/27 vs. FLA - 9.0 IP, CG, 2 ER (Cubs scored 1)

 

The other ones he probably deserved, but you can't fault the guy for no run support.

 

He also should/could have many more wins if the Cubs would hit.

4/10 vs. MIL - 3 ER, ND

4/17 vs. PIT - 2 ER, ND

4/23 vs. PIT - 2 ER, ND

7/21 vs. CIN - 3 ER, ND

7/26 vs. SF - 2 ER, ND

 

Should he have won all those games? Probably not, but he kept the Cubs in it, they just couldn't score for him.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

If it did, then you'd have to say that nobody's contract situation ever affects the team's payroll.

 

You add qualifiers like "really" want, and "shouldn't", but the fact is that $9m is $9m. It's 9% of the payroll and significantly affects what you can or cannot do with the rest of the payroll. It has an affect, there is no argument against that fact.

 

So why aren't you ragging on the other overpaid players like Wood, instead of the one that is actually out there performing?

[Chocolate Milk]

but the fact is that $9m is $9m. It's 9% of the payroll and significantly affects what you can or cannot do with the rest of the payroll. It has an affect, there is no argument against that fact.

 

Why do you keep saying 9 million? Are we going to replace Greg for a MLB player of similar production for free? Here are the players 5 spots better in ERA than Greg and 5 spots lower and their contracts:

 

Clement 6.5m

Young 400k

Wells 4.075m

Marquis 3m

Moyer 8m

Wakefield 4.670m

Robertson 355k

Nussina 19m

Bonderman 400k

Sabathia 5.250m

 

While, this isn't a perfect way to compute value it gives us a good idea of similar pitchers and what they are paid. The average is 5.165m which puts Maddux's overpayment at around 4 million. Sure, it would be great to bring up a prospect and expect Maddux's production from him, but I haven't seen anyone capeable of doing that around here. We aren't the Twins or the A's. We don't have to wring our hands because one of our players is marginally overpaid and it will keep us from signing players we need.

 

It's one year, we have a lot of money to spend, and he's marginally overpaid. It affects us, but it's not like he's Mussina, Sosa, or Wood. It's not worth all the attention it's getting around here. The Cubs have much, much, much bigger fish to fry.

[goonys evil twin]

So why aren't you ragging on the other overpaid players like Wood, instead of the one that is actually out there performing?

 

Oh goody, the old "he's not the only one".

 

Listen. I'm not ragging on Greg. I'm responding to a lot of completely illogical defenses of him.

 

Greg is grossly overpaid for the performance he provides. So is Wood. Next year, Greg will be grossly overpaid for the performance he is likely to provide. So might Wood. But then again, Wood could easily be back to his 02/03 ways, which was very good, and he could even have a career year. We don't know. Hopefully he does outperform though, the Cubs need every bit over "overperformance" they can get.

 

As for the rest, obviously Nomar didn't live up to his deal, but this isn't a thread about Nomar is it? Nomar's story has been talked about a lot. I am very disappointed that JB is on the team, I'm pissed that he's the starting RF, and can't stand that he's been in the 4/5 spot all freaking year. But I can't say he's drastically underperformed his deal. Corey has sucked, but I don't think that topic has lacked attention. Rusch arguably underperformed his deal. After incentives, Neifi at $2.5m? is overpaid in my opinion, but we haven't avoided that topic. Jose Macias is overpaid. He should be playing on a minor league deal.

 

 

Come to think of it, how the heck do you get off asking why I don't rag on the others? This is a thread about Maddux. It makes sense that somebody would talk about Maddux in this thread. It doesn't make sense to continually deflect attention away from Maddux in this thread. All those other guys get "ragged on" quite frequently in countless other threads.

[goonys evil twin]

It affects us, but it's not like he's Mussina, Sosa, or Wood. It's not worth all the attention it's getting around here. The Cubs have much, much, much bigger fish to fry.

 

Not worth the attention? None of this crap is worth the attention it's getting.

 

Frankly, I'd say nearly half, if not more, of the attention is coming from people who have nothing but praise for Maddux and his contribution to the team.

 

No, it's not the biggest issue. It's also not receiving the most attention.

 

I'm not saying the Cubs can't build a winner with Maddux on the team or that his contract is a club killer. It was just brought up because his option officially vested last night.

 

I don't see why his defenders have to take it so personally. It's much more an indictment on how the Cubs run the team than any sort of rip on Greg himself, and I don't see how anybody can pretend the Cubs are good at running their team.