Hendry sees Cedeno as a starter in 2006

[CubsWin]

"If he's going to play short, he has to work on getting his throw truer. Right now, it runs into the runner."

 

give me a break...this guy always finds a way to cut down a young player and make excuses for an older player. his bias is so ridiculously obvious that i can't believe he even makes an effort to dispel it with his comments.

 

well, i'd love to start cedeno at ss, but his throws to first run just a little bit into the runner. i think we'll go w/ neifi and his sub-.300 obp...his throws to first are awesome!

 

Honestly, would this quote raise an eyebrow if any other manager had said it? If Tony LaRussa or Bobby Cox were saying this we would be saying, "see, it is their eye for detail and the level of excellence they demand of their players that gets them where they are".

 

 

yeah, except, strangely enough he only nit-picks at the games of younger players.

 

-murton needs to hit for more power (replaced by hairston, who has no power & patterson who can't hit anything)

-dubois can't play defense (replaced by hollandsworth, who is awful defensively, and can't hit to save his life)

-cedeno throws slightly funny (replaced by neifi and his .300 obp)

-hill isn't ready for the big leagues (replaced by rusch, who has gone 0-4 with an 8ish era since he took hill's spot)

 

point me to an example of him doing this to a young player, then we'll talk.

I think you meant older.

 

But wasn't it just recently, and then back in July and also back at the end of May that Baker was making public comments about how players, both veterans and not, needed to be more selective at the plate?

 

maybe...but what came of it? two of the most unselective players on the team (macias and neifi) have only gotten more playing time.

The stats don't support this statement.

 

Neifi playing time has definitely tailed off since the return of Nomar and should continue to do so with Hendry calling for more of Cedeno. If Cedeno's P.T. doesn't pick up over the last month, then that would be solid evidence.

 

Macias got 3 starts in April, 4 in May, 2 in June, 4 in July and then Aramis got hurt and he stepped in for him in August. He hasn't started a game since August 11th.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

"If he's going to play short, he has to work on getting his throw truer. Right now, it runs into the runner."

 

give me a break...this guy always finds a way to cut down a young player and make excuses for an older player. his bias is so ridiculously obvious that i can't believe he even makes an effort to dispel it with his comments.

 

well, i'd love to start cedeno at ss, but his throws to first run just a little bit into the runner. i think we'll go w/ neifi and his sub-.300 obp...his throws to first are awesome!

No, you give me a break.

 

Honestly, would this quote raise an eyebrow if any other manager had said it? If Tony LaRussa or Bobby Cox were saying this we would be saying, "see, it is their eye for detail and the level of excellence they demand of their players that gets them where they are".

 

This is a perfect example of people who already have made up their mind about Baker taking a perfectly innocent quote and trying to turn into evidence that supports their already-made-up-mind's position.

 

Baker may deserve to be fired, but this quote has nothing to do with it.

 

Go find me a quote from Bobby Cox nit-picking to the beat writers at areas where a young player needs to improve. Kelly Johnson came up and went 1-35 with the Braves, yet he said it was easy to come out of that slump because Bobby took the pressure off him and told him to just play. He said your here because you can play; just go out, bust it, and you'll begin to hit at this level.

 

Kelly Johnson, despite the struggles is at .278/.368/.808 since that 1-35.

 

The point is, Baker puts pressure on these players by saying "you need to do this" "oh, he can't do that" "oh, he'll never be this" rather than allowing the player to just play the game and work with these players to improve. Instead, he can't stop defending his vets, but finds the time to spout to anyone who will listen about the younger player faults.

[CubfaninCA]

With the way Nomar's swinging the bat of late, some team may offer him a 2 to 3 year deal. If so, adios. Nomar in lf would probably last about 2 days. He'd pull something out there.

 

I prefer a speedy up-the-middle of Furcal and Cedeno. Get your obp from Giles.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I prefer a speedy up-the-middle of Furcal and Cedeno. Get your obp from Giles.

 

The Cubs will need more OBP than just Giles to fix the offense.

[CubsWin]

"If he's going to play short, he has to work on getting his throw truer. Right now, it runs into the runner."

 

give me a break...this guy always finds a way to cut down a young player and make excuses for an older player. his bias is so ridiculously obvious that i can't believe he even makes an effort to dispel it with his comments.

 

well, i'd love to start cedeno at ss, but his throws to first run just a little bit into the runner. i think we'll go w/ neifi and his sub-.300 obp...his throws to first are awesome!

No, you give me a break.

 

Honestly, would this quote raise an eyebrow if any other manager had said it? If Tony LaRussa or Bobby Cox were saying this we would be saying, "see, it is their eye for detail and the level of excellence they demand of their players that gets them where they are".

 

This is a perfect example of people who already have made up their mind about Baker taking a perfectly innocent quote and trying to turn into evidence that supports their already-made-up-mind's position.

 

Baker may deserve to be fired, but this quote has nothing to do with it.

 

Go find me a quote from Bobby Cox nit-picking to the beat writers at areas where a young player needs to improve. Kelly Johnson came up and went 1-35 with the Braves, yet he said it was easy to come out of that slump because Bobby took the pressure off him and told him to just play. He said your here because you can play; just go out, bust it, and you'll begin to hit at this level.

 

Kelly Johnson, despite the struggles is at .278/.368/.808 since that 1-35.

 

The point is, Baker puts pressure on these players by saying "you need to do this" "oh, he can't do that" "oh, he'll never be this" rather than allowing the player to just play the game and work with these players to improve. Instead, he can't stop defending his vets, but finds the time to spout to anyone who will listen about the younger player faults.

I don't have the time to sift through pages of Bobby Cox quotes, so you may be right, you might not. I don't know.

 

But even if you are right, it just shows that Dusty has a different style of managing, not that he hates rookies and will always play the veteran over the rookie as some fans would have you believe.

 

Again, I'm not defending Dusty's quotes or his actions. I'm only saying that some fans are taking things too far and reading into stuff unnecessarily.

[YearofDaCubs]

You are delusional if you think Baker doesnt have a bias towards veterans. All season has proved that he would do almost anything in his power to show that indeed he would prefer the vets to play over the rookies. Even when Cedeno was tearing it up in the minors did he get sent up and ride the pine while the Cubs hero Neifi was playing and starting at SS almost everyday. ANd that's only one example. Let's not forget how Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training and yet he still was benched in favor of Holla who was downright awful for us this year.

[TXCubsFan]

"If he's going to play short, he has to work on getting his throw truer. Right now, it runs into the runner."

 

give me a break...this guy always finds a way to cut down a young player and make excuses for an older player. his bias is so ridiculously obvious that i can't believe he even makes an effort to dispel it with his comments.

 

well, i'd love to start cedeno at ss, but his throws to first run just a little bit into the runner. i think we'll go w/ neifi and his sub-.300 obp...his throws to first are awesome!

 

Honestly, would this quote raise an eyebrow if any other manager had said it? If Tony LaRussa or Bobby Cox were saying this we would be saying, "see, it is their eye for detail and the level of excellence they demand of their players that gets them where they are".

 

 

yeah, except, strangely enough he only nit-picks at the games of younger players.

 

-murton needs to hit for more power (replaced by hairston, who has no power & patterson who can't hit anything)

-dubois can't play defense (replaced by hollandsworth, who is awful defensively, and can't hit to save his life)

-cedeno throws slightly funny (replaced by neifi and his .300 obp)

-hill isn't ready for the big leagues (replaced by rusch, who has gone 0-4 with an 8ish era since he took hill's spot)

 

point me to an example of him doing this to a young player, then we'll talk.

 

Dubois didn't stick with the Indians, he was sent to AAA. Hard to argue that we underrated him.

 

Playing Hairston and Patterson now makes some sense, as Hendry/Baker may be evaluating them for next year. Murton will be on the Cubs in 2006; the other two may or may not.

 

Hill needs to work on a third pitch. Some bullpen time for the remainder of this season might be prudent.

[CubfaninCA]

I prefer a speedy up-the-middle of Furcal and Cedeno. Get your obp from Giles.

 

The Cubs will need more OBP than just Giles to fix the offense.

 

Won't Murton, Giles and Cedeno help "fix the offense??" It's not like they're in the bottom tier. The bigger concern should be getting the pitching back to where it was in 2003 and upgrading the defense will help that.

[CubfaninCA]

You are delusional if you think Baker doesnt have a bias towards veterans. All season has proved that he would do almost anything in his power to show that indeed he would prefer the vets to play over the rookies. Even when Cedeno was tearing it up in the minors did he get sent up and ride the pine while the Cubs hero Neifi was playing and starting at SS almost everyday. ANd that's only one example. Let's not forget how Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training and yet he still was benched in favor of Holla who was downright awful for us this year.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Neifi hasn't had a horrendous season. Sorry.

[YearofDaCubs]

You are delusional if you think Baker doesnt have a bias towards veterans. All season has proved that he would do almost anything in his power to show that indeed he would prefer the vets to play over the rookies. Even when Cedeno was tearing it up in the minors did he get sent up and ride the pine while the Cubs hero Neifi was playing and starting at SS almost everyday. ANd that's only one example. Let's not forget how Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training and yet he still was benched in favor of Holla who was downright awful for us this year.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Neifi hasn't had a horrendous season. Sorry.

Not horrendous, but he's not exactly lighting it up either. I rather have Cedeno starting over Perez. Why not start Cedeno? He is going to be the future anyways and he has been playing very good for us.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I prefer a speedy up-the-middle of Furcal and Cedeno. Get your obp from Giles.

 

The Cubs will need more OBP than just Giles to fix the offense.

 

Won't Murton, Giles and Cedeno help "fix the offense??" It's not like they're in the bottom tier. The bigger concern should be getting the pitching back to where it was in 2003 and upgrading the defense will help that.

 

Murton I think will help, but I don't expect Cedeño to hit that well in his rookie year. CF might be plugged by Corey, who will have to make major strides to put up a respectable OBP after this year's debacle. CF might also be filled by Felix Pie, who'll probably have a rougher jump to the big leagues than I think Cedeño will have. I don't think those three new faces in the starting lineup is enough to fix the offense.

[CubfaninCA]

I prefer a speedy up-the-middle of Furcal and Cedeno. Get your obp from Giles.

 

The Cubs will need more OBP than just Giles to fix the offense.

 

Won't Murton, Giles and Cedeno help "fix the offense??" It's not like they're in the bottom tier. The bigger concern should be getting the pitching back to where it was in 2003 and upgrading the defense will help that.

 

Murton I think will help, but I don't expect Cedeño to hit that well in his rookie year. CF might be plugged by Corey, who will have to make major strides to put up a respectable OBP after this year's debacle. CF might also be filled by Felix Pie, who'll probably have a rougher jump to the big leagues than I think Cedeño will have. I don't think those three new faces in the starting lineup is enough to fix the offense.

 

Jmo but Furcal, Murton, Giles, Lee, ARam, Barrett, Patterson & Cedeno could be pretty good. Sure it would be nice to field something better, but the Trib doesn't throw around money like the Red Sox.

 

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the Cubs picking up Lofton to hold down the front for Pie.

[ltb]

Dubois didn't stick with the Indians, he was sent to AAA. Hard to argue that we underrated him.

 

many sources (including prospectus, iirc) have said that the indians should have demoted someone other than dubois. the trade for him was made while hafner was on the DL, and you're not going to find many rookies (if any) that are going to replace him.

[ltb]

You are delusional if you think Baker doesnt have a bias towards veterans. All season has proved that he would do almost anything in his power to show that indeed he would prefer the vets to play over the rookies. Even when Cedeno was tearing it up in the minors did he get sent up and ride the pine while the Cubs hero Neifi was playing and starting at SS almost everyday. ANd that's only one example. Let's not forget how Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training and yet he still was benched in favor of Holla who was downright awful for us this year.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Neifi hasn't had a horrendous season. Sorry.

 

contrary to your belief, a .300 obp is horrendous.

[CubfaninCA]

You are delusional if you think Baker doesnt have a bias towards veterans. All season has proved that he would do almost anything in his power to show that indeed he would prefer the vets to play over the rookies. Even when Cedeno was tearing it up in the minors did he get sent up and ride the pine while the Cubs hero Neifi was playing and starting at SS almost everyday. ANd that's only one example. Let's not forget how Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training and yet he still was benched in favor of Holla who was downright awful for us this year.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Neifi hasn't had a horrendous season. Sorry.

 

contrary to your belief, a .300 obp is horrendous.

 

13th in ops amongst SS's and a very good glove = alright for $1 million. Baker should never bat him 1st or 2nd though. But keep whipping him.

[CubsWin]

You are delusional if you think Baker doesnt have a bias towards veterans. All season has proved that he would do almost anything in his power to show that indeed he would prefer the vets to play over the rookies. Even when Cedeno was tearing it up in the minors did he get sent up and ride the pine while the Cubs hero Neifi was playing and starting at SS almost everyday. ANd that's only one example. Let's not forget how Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training and yet he still was benched in favor of Holla who was downright awful for us this year.

No. I'm not delusional. Just because you disagree with me doesn't make me delusional. If you have read my posts you would know that I have logic, reason and stats supporting all of my opinions. However, there is one difference between you and me. I regard my opinions as just that. I don't pretend to know the truth about much of anything.

 

You say that Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training. While I too wanted to see Dubois get the nod, the facts do not support that he clearly out hit Holla. Hollandsworth hit .349 while Dubois hit .288 but with more power. I think you could make a case for either one, but neither one "clearly outhit" the other.

 

You state with such certainty that Cedeno should have been brought up and inserted in the starting position because he was tearing up AAA. I think you could make a case for that being a good idea with the way that Neifi had been hitting at that time, but there is no clear cut method of showing that Cedeno would have for certain performed much better than Neifi did during that same stretch. I would think there is a lot of evidence that shows many rookies struggle at first when thrown into a starting job and could benefit from being exposed gradually to major league pitching.

 

So both of your examples that you gave are not facts that expose Baker as some fool. They are interpretations as seen from the point of view of one who already considers Baker a terrible manager. But if you looked with no bias of your own, you may consider these moves reasonable. After all, its not like he never gave Dubois the starting job when Hollandsworth struggled. Or never played Cedeno when he was brought up.

 

If you want to have a discussion about the facts in this case and begin to sift the hard facts from the twisted quotes and views of Baker moves from a certain point of view that are being treated as if they are hard facts, I would be happy to join you.

Edited September 6, 2005 by CubsWin

[YearofDaCubs]

You are delusional if you think Baker doesnt have a bias towards veterans. All season has proved that he would do almost anything in his power to show that indeed he would prefer the vets to play over the rookies. Even when Cedeno was tearing it up in the minors did he get sent up and ride the pine while the Cubs hero Neifi was playing and starting at SS almost everyday. ANd that's only one example. Let's not forget how Dubois clearly outhit Holla during spring training and yet he still was benched in favor of Holla who was downright awful for us this year.

No. I'm not delusional. Just because you disagree with me doesn't make me delusional. If you have read my posts you would know that I have logic, reason and stats supporting all of my opinions. However, there is one difference between you and me. I regard my opinions as just that. I don't pretend to know the truth about much of anything.

 

If you want to have a discussion about the facts in this case and begin to sift the hard facts from the twisted quotes and views of Baker moves from a certain point of view that are being treated as if they are hard facts, I would be happy to join you.

I dont need to read Dusty's quotes to make a conclusion. I have watched almost every game this year and can tell you that Dusty has played the vets much more than the young players. He takes them out of situations to pinch-hit a vet which usually turns out to be ugly. When a player goes down he has preferred to go to a veteran off the bench and let them start over the players coming from the minors. Even with Murton lighting it up how many times did we see others start in LF over him? We are already out of the playoff race yet we still are not seeing a consistent lineup out there. If your opinion is that Baker does not discriminate so be it. My opinion is that he does indeed discriminate the young players and has been doing it all year.

[Tim]

I prefer a speedy up-the-middle of Furcal and Cedeno. Get your obp from Giles.

 

The Cubs will need more OBP than just Giles to fix the offense.

 

Won't Murton, Giles and Cedeno help "fix the offense??" It's not like they're in the bottom tier. The bigger concern should be getting the pitching back to where it was in 2003 and upgrading the defense will help that.

 

Murton I think will help, but I don't expect Cedeño to hit that well in his rookie year. CF might be plugged by Corey, who will have to make major strides to put up a respectable OBP after this year's debacle. CF might also be filled by Felix Pie, who'll probably have a rougher jump to the big leagues than I think Cedeño will have. I don't think those three new faces in the starting lineup is enough to fix the offense.

Just as an experiment, I ran some numbers to see what kind of impact Giles alone would have for this team in place of Burnitz.

 

The Cubs with Burnitz have a .329 OBP, which ranks 9th out of the 16 NL teams.

 

Replacing Burnitz with Giles would raise the OBP of the entire team by a shade over 10 points (yep, that much). That would put the Cubs at a .339 OBP -- good enough for 3rd in the NL.

 

Brian Giles alone would make an enormous difference to this offense.

[CubfaninCA]

I prefer a speedy up-the-middle of Furcal and Cedeno. Get your obp from Giles.

 

The Cubs will need more OBP than just Giles to fix the offense.

 

Won't Murton, Giles and Cedeno help "fix the offense??" It's not like they're in the bottom tier. The bigger concern should be getting the pitching back to where it was in 2003 and upgrading the defense will help that.

 

Murton I think will help, but I don't expect Cedeño to hit that well in his rookie year. CF might be plugged by Corey, who will have to make major strides to put up a respectable OBP after this year's debacle. CF might also be filled by Felix Pie, who'll probably have a rougher jump to the big leagues than I think Cedeño will have. I don't think those three new faces in the starting lineup is enough to fix the offense.

Just as an experiment, I ran some numbers to see what kind of impact Giles alone would have for this team in place of Burnitz.

 

The Cubs with Burnitz have a .329 OBP, which ranks 9th out of the 16 NL teams.

 

Replacing Burnitz with Giles would raise the OBP of the entire team by a shade over 10 points (yep, that much). That would put the Cubs at a .339 OBP -- good enough for 3rd in the NL.

 

Brian Giles alone would make an enormous difference to this offense.

 

Interesting stat. Gotta figure if Neifi's not playing everyday next year, the obp should improve a little as well. Not sure about the ops though.

 

Boy I'm really going to get depressed when Giles signs w/ either SD, LA or Anaheim. :cry:

[erik316wttn]

I wouldn't mind Giles so much, but what are the chances he keeps his numbers up and doesn't have a huge dropoff?

[Tim]

I wouldn't mind Giles so much, but what are the chances he keeps his numbers up and doesn't have a huge dropoff?

His numbers stand a good chance of improving in year 1 in a move from SD to Chicago just due to park factors.

 

I'd sign him to a 4 year deal with the full intention of trading him after year 2.

[erik316wttn]

I wouldn't mind Giles so much, but what are the chances he keeps his numbers up and doesn't have a huge dropoff?

His numbers stand a good chance of improving in year 1 in a move from SD to Chicago just due to park factors.

 

I'd sign him to a 4 year deal with the full intention of trading him after year 2.

 

4 may be a bit much. I'd go for 3.

[Tim]

I wouldn't mind Giles so much, but what are the chances he keeps his numbers up and doesn't have a huge dropoff?

His numbers stand a good chance of improving in year 1 in a move from SD to Chicago just due to park factors.

 

I'd sign him to a 4 year deal with the full intention of trading him after year 2.

 

4 may be a bit much. I'd go for 3.

Offer him 3 and he'll sign with LA, SD or LA.

 

In order to get him away from the coast, you're going to have to give the extra year. The key is to trade him before it bites you too badly. But he'd be huge for us in year 1 and is likely to still be very productive in year 2.

 

Then you ship him out and it doesn't matter how many years he has left.

[YearofDaCubs]

I wouldn't mind Giles so much, but what are the chances he keeps his numbers up and doesn't have a huge dropoff?

His numbers stand a good chance of improving in year 1 in a move from SD to Chicago just due to park factors.

 

I'd sign him to a 4 year deal with the full intention of trading him after year 2.

 

4 may be a bit much. I'd go for 3.

Offer him 3 and he'll sign with LA, SD or LA.

 

In order to get him away from the coast, you're going to have to give the extra year. The key is to trade him before it bites you too badly. But he'd be huge for us in year 1 and is likely to still be very productive in year 2.

 

Then you ship him out and it doesn't matter how many years he has left.

Yeah, but considering the amount of money he will be receiving will he even be tradeable come year 3?

[Tim]

I'd purposefully front-load the contract or put more of it in a signing bonus structure to make it easier.