great excuse for baker not playing the 9/1 callups

[biittner77]

I concur with dalgreen and the facts back up the lack of postitional prospects panning for the cubs. I have been a fan for years and its been while since a legit big league all star caliber player has come out of their system . The dallas green regime had more success in this endevor. Dunston Grace, wilkens Girardi, Joe carter, mell hall , Raphel Palimero. The current bunch stinks compared to that group. Choi, Hill , Dubois , Patterson, have all yet to show they are better than decent players. That may yet occur but the best bet we have in terms of rediness is from another orginization. Pitching is another story , as is Hendrys ability to sell off at the right time. Lee and Rameriz trades.

I hold out hope for cedeno and pie . Though along with Harvey , they appear more toolsy than plate disciplined. God Bless and Go Cubs

 

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors. Over the past few years, it appears to me the guys brought up just aren't ready to play. You don't develop guys in the majors, they should be ready to contribute when they arrive. For example, is there any reason why Dubois was still getting poor jumps and misreading fly balls? I mean it's not like he came up with only two years of pro ball under his belt. Is there a reason why Choi's and Patterson's swings weren't corrected or improved by the time they came to Chicago?

 

Patterson was rushed to the majors. Can't blame him on the coaches. Choi had little left to prove at the AAA level.

 

Sing looks like a very patient hitter. It seems like Harvey has a decent w/k ratio. There's also Eric Patterson who seems to understand the importance of getting on base. While they didn't develop Murton Hendry insisted on getting him in the Nomar deal.

 

Maybe Hendry is coming around on the OBP issue.

[Chris]

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors.

 

Obviously you have a problem with guys succeeding if you include the Jaxx staff as part of that group.

[goonys evil twin]

It seems like Harvey has a decent w/k ratio.

 

Really? I didn't think that was true.

 

 

Actually, according to BA, his bb/k is 22/122, as far as I can tell, that's awful. Personally I'm very disappointed by his .265 .311 .507 line. Sure he's got a lot of raw power, and nice HR totals, but for a very high draft pick, who is highly compensated, highly touted, and in his 3rd pro season, I'd like more than that in low A ball.

[goonys evil twin]

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors.

 

Obviously you have a problem with guys succeeding if you include the Jaxx staff as part of that group.

 

Success has to be measured at the major league level. The goal is not to produce good AA players. And as many have pointed out, the Cubs have failed miserably at bringing up succesful position players to their major league team.

[Chris]

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors.

 

Obviously you have a problem with guys succeeding if you include the Jaxx staff as part of that group.

 

Success has to be measured at the major league level. The goal is not to produce good AA players. And as many have pointed out, the Cubs have failed miserably at bringing up succesful position players to their major league team.

 

I agree with that point entirely. However, is it the fault of a Minor League coaching staff if a guy doesn't pan out?

[dalgreen]

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors.

 

Obviously you have a problem with guys succeeding if you include the Jaxx staff as part of that group.

 

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me too much if our minor league teams weren't successful if it meant the Cubs were able to get two succesful position players a year from our farm system. As I've said before, maybe two-five years from now we'll be popping up prospects left and right who are major league ready. Who knows? But for a team that has been ranked fairly high over the last few years not to produce position players, I have a problem with that. Didn't mean to offend you, just offering my opinion.

[goonys evil twin]

I agree with that point entirely. However, is it the fault of a Minor League coaching staff if a guy doesn't pan out?

 

It's probably different for all guys. Sometimes it's the individual players' fault, sometimes it's a hitting coach, or manager. But that's on an individual basis. Collectively, the entire organization has failed miserably in this department. The scouts, the people who listen to the scouts, the instructors, everybody.

[erik316wttn]

I concur with dalgreen and the facts back up the lack of postitional prospects panning for the cubs. I have been a fan for years and its been while since a legit big league all star caliber player has come out of their system . The dallas green regime had more success in this endevor. Dunston Grace, wilkens Girardi, Joe carter, mell hall , Raphel Palimero. The current bunch stinks compared to that group. Choi, Hill , Dubois , Patterson, have all yet to show they are better than decent players. That may yet occur but the best bet we have in terms of rediness is from another orginization. Pitching is another story , as is Hendrys ability to sell off at the right time. Lee and Rameriz trades.

I hold out hope for cedeno and pie . Though along with Harvey , they appear more toolsy than plate disciplined. God Bless and Go Cubs

 

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors. Over the past few years, it appears to me the guys brought up just aren't ready to play. You don't develop guys in the majors, they should be ready to contribute when they arrive. For example, is there any reason why Dubois was still getting poor jumps and misreading fly balls? I mean it's not like he came up with only two years of pro ball under his belt. Is there a reason why Choi's and Patterson's swings weren't corrected or improved by the time they came to Chicago?

 

Patterson was rushed to the majors. Can't blame him on the coaches. Choi had little left to prove at the AAA level.

 

Sing looks like a very patient hitter. It seems like Harvey has a decent w/k ratio. There's also Eric Patterson who seems to understand the importance of getting on base. While they didn't develop Murton Hendry insisted on getting him in the Nomar deal.

 

Maybe Hendry is coming around on the OBP issue.

 

Now if only we had a manager who woudl come around on the OBP issue....

[Chris]

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors.

 

Obviously you have a problem with guys succeeding if you include the Jaxx staff as part of that group.

 

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me too much if our minor league teams weren't successful if it meant the Cubs were able to get two succesful position players a year from our farm system. As I've said before, maybe two-five years from now we'll be popping up prospects left and right who are major league ready. Who knows? But for a team that has been ranked fairly high over the last few years not to produce position players, I have a problem with that. Didn't mean to offend you, just offering my opinion.

 

It's not offensive, I just view it from a different perspective. I know how hard the Jaxx coaching staff works with their players, whether it be in regards to fielding, hitting or pitching. The coaching staff works very hard at fundamentals and preparing the guys for their next location, whether it be at AAA, the Major Leagues or even a demotion or winter ball.

 

And I agree with you, it's not about the win/loss records but the talent that the system gets to the Major Leagues. I just know what I have heard from guys that have gone through the current staff and from other scouts and people through Jackson have said. I'm not a player but the Jaxx have a great staff.

[CuseCubFan69]

Since the Hendry era.....what do the Cubs rank in having thier farm system kids play in the MLB? Out of that, how many are impact players?

[UK1679666180]

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me too much if our minor league teams weren't successful if it meant the Cubs were able to get two succesful position players a year from our farm system. As I've said before, maybe two-five years from now we'll be popping up prospects left and right who are major league ready. Who knows? But for a team that has been ranked fairly high over the last few years not to produce position players, I have a problem with that. Didn't mean to offend you, just offering my opinion.

 

There's no doubt, that at various levels maybe the Cubs need better instructors, you have position players not developing and pitchers consistently getting hurt. This isn't a recent problem, this has been going on for quite some time. I'm not singling out one level of the minors, but this has be addressed.

 

The reason for the decline as far as the Cubs farm system is a digression of international scouting. Even when the Cubs had the #1 farm system in '02, it all wasn't on Prior's hands, yCruz, Choi, Zambrano etc all within the top 50 overall according to BA, 3 international prospects. Now, they have 1 with Pie. I can understand the lack of an uber prospect like Patterson, Prior, or Wood b/c they haven't drafted in the top 4 since '01. But, I can't see why the international scouting has diminished except for budget cuts. Just b/c they lost Leon Lee as the Pacific Rim (to me) didn't have to equate cutting the entire Pacific Rim program.

[CubDad4Ever]

Good Point UK, as i talked about develp. I men the crappy work in latin america and i agree they have had spurts and seemed to back away. MacPhail and Hendry have preached the importance of a great system. They have talked the talk now walk the walk on all levels of building a system. God Bless and give me a on base power machine like of for christmas

[dalgreen]

I have a huge problem with our minor league managers, coaches and instructors.

 

Obviously you have a problem with guys succeeding if you include the Jaxx staff as part of that group.

 

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me too much if our minor league teams weren't successful if it meant the Cubs were able to get two succesful position players a year from our farm system. As I've said before, maybe two-five years from now we'll be popping up prospects left and right who are major league ready. Who knows? But for a team that has been ranked fairly high over the last few years not to produce position players, I have a problem with that. Didn't mean to offend you, just offering my opinion.

 

It's not offensive, I just view it from a different perspective. I know how hard the Jaxx coaching staff works with their players, whether it be in regards to fielding, hitting or pitching. The coaching staff works very hard at fundamentals and preparing the guys for their next location, whether it be at AAA, the Major Leagues or even a demotion or winter ball.

 

And I agree with you, it's not about the win/loss records but the talent that the system gets to the Major Leagues. I just know what I have heard from guys that have gone through the current staff and from other scouts and people through Jackson have said. I'm not a player but the Jaxx have a great staff.

 

I would never question the work ethic of our minor league coaches, instructors, etc. And I'm not placing blame on one level; but I place responsibility on coaches, scouts, individual players, instructors, etc. within the entire system.

[CuseCubFan69]

I also think the fans are to blame. Yeah, the prospects haven't been the best but we are so eager to have a player come up and do well we jump all over the guy when he doesn't. Pie will be a good example of this and when he turns out to be a below Pierre 265/300 kind of player we will once again crucify him as a lot of fans do CPatt. The over hype and hope will continue as the Cubs concentrate on drafting pitchers and we search for the next postion player savior.

[CubDad4Ever]

No doubt, expectations are at an all time high (i am as guilty as the next guy) I am beggining to realize the people at the top have to be as bold as they are steady. hungry , while not losing the big picture. Not easy to do. But a job they must embrace with fervor as well as lip service. The current management at all levels has both success and failure to live with and in. You either get better or you get worse, you never stay the same. Great players have great expectations themselves and dont lose their belief that they will get their, regardless of the surrounding circumstances. God Bless their efforts.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I also think the fans are to blame. Yeah, the prospects haven't been the best but we are so eager to have a player come up and do well we jump all over the guy when he doesn't. Pie will be a good example of this and when he turns out to be a below Pierre 265/300 kind of player we will once again crucify him as a lot of fans do CPatt. The over hype and hope will continue as the Cubs concentrate on drafting pitchers and we search for the next postion player savior.

 

i think the fans treated CPat fairly well until this year. you get many chances to prove yourself if you have the talent. cpat just ran out of chances in many fans' opinions.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Choi, Hill , Dubois , Patterson, have all yet to show they are better than decent players.

 

That depends on who you compare them to. Compared to Karros, Lenny Harris, Jose Hernandez, and 2005 Hollandsworth they look pretty good.

[CubDad4Ever]

Point number 1 comparing choi , hill and patterson to holla, karros , etc is not the point . I want valid lasting players not a complaint fest of how screwed our enormous postitional talent gets. 2. Hendry ripped off florida and Pitt. with judicious trades at a perfect time. We were fine at first with karros and at 2nd with Grudz and now have to younger players from the trades. The talent to stay has to improve . Patterson has digressed and has got to play every moment. I pray that Cedeno , Pie , Harvery even guys like Giavani Soto (strong on defense and obp) can contribute. I am a farm system guy at heart. But teams have to have talent that produces and the positional talent for the cubs has not met that criteria yet.

More work needed on develop. at minor level , more avenues of talent explored (international scouting) and better evaluatory tools , lets get some more players who already have the start of a clue in the area of plate discipline. God Bless and OPS

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Point number 1 comparing choi , hill and patterson to holla, karros , etc is not the point . I want valid lasting players not a complaint fest of how screwed our enormous postitional talent gets. 2. Hendry ripped off florida and Pitt. with judicious trades at a perfect time. We were fine at first with karros and at 2nd with Grudz and now have to younger players from the trades. The talent to stay has to improve . Patterson has digressed and has got to play every moment. I pray that Cedeno , Pie , Harvery even guys like Giavani Soto (strong on defense and obp) can contribute. I am a farm system guy at heart. But teams have to have talent that produces and the positional talent for the cubs has not met that criteria yet.

More work needed on develop. at minor level , more avenues of talent explored (international scouting) and better evaluatory tools , lets get some more players who already have the start of a clue in the area of plate discipline. God Bless and OPS

 

It's exactly the point. Baker refuses to play the young players even when they are as good or better options than the alternatives. I agree about the organizational focus, I was talking about the topic of the thread, Dusty and his tendencies with young players.

[CubDad4Ever]

Its a fine line giving kids a chance and keeping your total team going . As a coach you have to give the feeling to the whole roster , that they count vet and rookie. I am the first to admit i get excited by the new sports car(rookie) part of that is the hope for the potential . However most players not just managers want the proven commidity . Especially the young studs on the mound. This being said its up the GM to shape the roster for the manager and balance if possible (based on economics ) this to help the manager. I get frustrated with Baker also in this area, but not as much as i do the orginization for shaping a better roster. God Bless and i appreciate your oppionion

[biittner77]

I knew I should have checked Harvey's stats :oops:

[goonys evil twin]

I know how hard the Jaxx coaching staff works with their players, whether it be in regards to fielding, hitting or pitching. The coaching staff works very hard at fundamentals and preparing the guys for their next location

 

I just know what I have heard from guys that have gone through the current staff and from other scouts and people through Jackson have said. I'm not a player but the Jaxx have a great staff.

 

 

I don't think it has anything to do with hard work. I don't doubt that the Cubs organization is trying to succeed. The problem is, they are failing.

 

It really doesn't mean much to me what "baseball people" think of the instructors. I want to see results. If you divide up the baseball decision making world between old school "baseball people" and new school "moneyball" people, the Cubs rely almost exclusively on the former. Everytime they bring in a new coach, instructor or special assistant, we read all about how well respected they are within the game, and what a great baseball person they are. I have no doubt that scouts and such hold many Cubs' people in high regard, because the Cubs as an organization pays homage to that good ole' boy network of people who decide what a respected "baseball person" is.

 

If they could make it work with these people, fine, but so far they haven't achieved a thing. The Cubs seem to put far more emphasis on people who are respected in the game, and far too little emphasis on actual results/production/success.

[SanJoseCubsFan]

Point number 1 comparing choi , hill and patterson to holla, karros , etc is not the point . I want valid lasting players not a complaint fest of how screwed our enormous postitional talent gets. 2. Hendry ripped off florida and Pitt. with judicious trades at a perfect time. We were fine at first with karros and at 2nd with Grudz and now have to younger players from the trades. The talent to stay has to improve . Patterson has digressed and has got to play every moment. I pray that Cedeno , Pie , Harvery even guys like Giavani Soto (strong on defense and obp) can contribute. I am a farm system guy at heart. But teams have to have talent that produces and the positional talent for the cubs has not met that criteria yet.

More work needed on develop. at minor level , more avenues of talent explored (international scouting) and better evaluatory tools , lets get some more players who already have the start of a clue in the area of plate discipline. God Bless and OPS

 

It's exactly the point. Baker refuses to play the young players even when they are as good or better options than the alternatives. I agree about the organizational focus, I was talking about the topic of the thread, Dusty and his tendencies with young players.

 

 

 

Really?, Dusty did play Choi unitl he got hurt at a 80/20 rule. Also, Dusty gave the job to Hill in spring training and he lost it. I think he batted like .110 or something. Neither one of these guys have proved to be even everyday players. I think Dusty has been decent at weeding out the good and the bad. Look everyone wants to see Murton play more but he has only done well against Left handers. He will get his chance and we will see what he is made of soon. The alternative is not always better it is just unknown. I am sure since we are rapidly losing any wild card hopes Murton and others will play more. I think Dusty's point, while badly worded, makes sense. You cannot just take one month when no one has seen a rookie and project his HOF career for a month of ABs.

[frostwyrm]

We were fine at first with karros

 

I can't agree with that at all. In 2003 Karros put up a .683 OPS vs. right-handed pitching, despite getting more than his fair share of at bats against the weaker righties in the league, and it was well known going into the season that Karros could only hit lefties. Choi should have gotten all the starts vs. righties while he was healthy enough to play.

[Fred Hornkohl]

We were fine at first with karros

 

I can't agree with that at all. In 2003 Karros put up a .683 OPS vs. right-handed pitching, despite getting more than his fair share of at bats against the weaker righties in the league, and it was well known going into the season that Karros could only hit lefties. Choi should have gotten all the starts vs. righties while he was healthy enough to play.

 

Choi played himself out of the lineup.

 

Choi           AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR  TB RBI  BB  SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
03/31 - 05/14  85  22  23   9   0   7  53  20  21   8  0.271  0.426  0.624  1.049
05/15 - 06/07  50   5  10   4   0   0  14   2   7  18  0.200  0.298  0.280  0.578
06/30 - 07/31  67   4  11   4   0   1  18   6   8  23  0.164  0.282  0.269  0.551