Cubs/Cards Over and Underachievers List

[indifferent]

Since it seems to be a topic that comes up daily, let's check out over/underachievers for both teams (including those that have over/under achieved but could be expected).

 

I'm sure fans of both teams will agree/disagree depending on where their loyalty lies. I'm also not going to comment in great detail in expectation that the thread will flesh out as people post to it.

 

Cards

 

Morris - Overachiever in the sense that most wouldn't expect it given shoulder surgery and last year's performance.

 

Carp - Overachiever although I think he'll remain an elite starter barring injury

 

Walker - Underachiever, expected due to injury

 

Grudz - Overachiever due to injury history only

 

Rolen - Underachiever

 

Edmonds - Underachiever

 

Nunez - Poster boy for overachievement

 

Taguchi - Overachiever

 

Mulder - Could go either way, I still think underachiever based on career body of work vs. one half of season

 

King - Underachiever (as far as expectations, but can see how he would be viewed as on par with career performance)

 

Reyes - Overachiever

 

Marquis - Underachiever

 

To me, Pujols, Eckstein, Suppan, Tavarez, Mabry, and Molina have all been on par with what one would expect.

 

Cubs

 

Wood - Underachiever, expected due to injury

 

Prior - Underachiever, not expected - fluke injury

 

Lee - Overachiever

 

Garciaparra - Underachiever, expected due to injury

 

Patterson - Underachiever

 

Maddux - Underachiever

 

Novoa - Overachiever

 

Dempster - Overachiever mostly because he was coming off injury and had never been in the closer role

 

Hollandsworth - Underachiever

 

Wellemeyer - Underachiever

 

To me, Zambrano, Walker, Burnitz, Perez, Williams, Rusch, Hairston Macias and ARam have all been on par with what one would expect. I didn't put a label one way or the other on Lawton, Dubois, or Murton due to varying lengths of time with the team.

 

That's one Cards fan's take...

[K-Town]

Pretty fair list.

 

I don't think I'd call Grudz an "overachiever", though. He has a lower OPS this year than he had the last 2 years with the Cubs.

 

Reyes, I guess I won't dispute, although based on what he's done the last 2 or 3 years, this year isn't anything special.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Edmonds I wouldn't consider underachieving, he's playing above his career averages at age 35.

 

Marquis is almost exactly at his career averages, with a slightly higher ERA.

 

Novoa is pitching basically as well as he did with the Tigers last year. Those numbers are similar to his minor league numbers too. I'd say he's been as expected.

 

Otherwise I don't have any big disagreements with that list.

[K-Town]

Edmonds I wouldn't consider underachieving, he's playing above his career averages at age 35.

 

Marquis is almost exactly at his career averages, with a slightly higher ERA.

 

Novoa is pitching basically as well as he did with the Tigers last year. Those numbers are similar to his minor league numbers too. I'd say he's been as expected.

 

Otherwise I don't have any big disagreements with that list.

 

Edmonds' overall production (specifically his OPS) is WAY below anything he's done in the previous 5 years, so I think it's fair to say he's underachieving. I think that the point with Marquis is that you would EXPECT a pitcher with his ability would begin to get progressively better at age 27, rather than take a step backward, which he's done.

[UK1679666180]

I think that the point with Marquis is that you would EXPECT a pitcher with his ability would begin to get progressively better at age 27, rather than take a step backward, which he's done.

 

Why would you expect him to do better? Last year is proving to be the year he overachieved, not this year being a year of underachieving.

 

There are plenty of pitchers who have the talent, but not the right mindset to maximize his talents, Marquis happens to be one of them.

 

He's pitching about where you'd expect him to if his mind isn't where it needs to be.

[K-Town]

I think that the point with Marquis is that you would EXPECT a pitcher with his ability would begin to get progressively better at age 27, rather than take a step backward, which he's done.

 

Why would you expect him to do better? Last year is proving to be the year he overachieved, not this year being a year of underachieving.

 

There are plenty of pitchers who have the talent, but not the right mindset to maximize his talents, Marquis happens to be one of them.

 

He's pitching about where you'd expect him to if his mind isn't where it needs to be.

 

Yeah, that's probably closer to accurate.

 

He's "disappointing", let's just say that. But probably not underachieving.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Edmonds I wouldn't consider underachieving, he's playing above his career averages at age 35.

 

Marquis is almost exactly at his career averages, with a slightly higher ERA.

 

Novoa is pitching basically as well as he did with the Tigers last year. Those numbers are similar to his minor league numbers too. I'd say he's been as expected.

 

Otherwise I don't have any big disagreements with that list.

 

Edmonds' overall production (specifically his OPS) is WAY below anything he's done in the previous 5 years, so I think it's fair to say he's underachieving. I think that the point with Marquis is that you would EXPECT a pitcher with his ability would begin to get progressively better at age 27, rather than take a step backward, which he's done.

 

If you think a player has to get progressively better at 27, then you have to expect a 35 year old to decline. Most 35 year olds don't play to their career averages, never mind slightly above them.

[K-Town]

Edmonds I wouldn't consider underachieving, he's playing above his career averages at age 35.

 

Marquis is almost exactly at his career averages, with a slightly higher ERA.

 

Novoa is pitching basically as well as he did with the Tigers last year. Those numbers are similar to his minor league numbers too. I'd say he's been as expected.

 

Otherwise I don't have any big disagreements with that list.

 

Edmonds' overall production (specifically his OPS) is WAY below anything he's done in the previous 5 years, so I think it's fair to say he's underachieving. I think that the point with Marquis is that you would EXPECT a pitcher with his ability would begin to get progressively better at age 27, rather than take a step backward, which he's done.

 

If you think a player has to get progressively better at 27, then you have to expect a 35 year old to decline. Most 35 year olds don't play to their career averages, never mind slightly above them.

 

No, but I certainly didn't expect Edmonds' OPS to drop off 142 points from last year (similar to the drop-off the Corey Patterson has experience this year).

[TruffleShuffle]

No, but I certainly didn't expect Edmonds' OPS to drop off 142 points from last year (similar to the drop-off the Corey Patterson has experience this year).

 

Last year was his best ever OPS by 60 points, and only his second OPS over 1.000. It's not all that surprising that a guy who has been fairly injury prone in the big leagues should start declining somewhat in his middle to late 30s. I would have expected maybe a 950 OPS from him this season, so perhaps he has been a very slight disappointment, but I don't think you can judge him as a disappointment simply by comparing him to a career year.

[wolf stansson]

Last year was his best ever OPS by 60 points, and only his second OPS over 1.000. It's not all that surprising that a guy who has been fairly injury prone in the big leagues should start declining somewhat in his middle to late 30s.

Not to mention the significantly weaker lineup he's hitting in. He separated a rib around the All Star break and has played through it. He said if the other guys were healthy, he'd probably be sitting. Couple that with the absences of Reggie, Scott, and Larry to make the pitcher work harder and protect the lineup in general and he was due to suffer statistically this year.

[IlliniAmy]

To me, Pujols, Eckstein, Suppan, Tavarez, Mabry, and Molina have all been on par with what one would expect.

 

I would nominate Eckstein for slight overachievement...especially considering the very low expectations of a certain segment of Cardinal fans and the media.

 

Considering the offensive prowess he's developed since the end of May, I would definitely nominate Molina as an overachiever...only because I didn't expect much contribution offensively.

 

 

Lee - Overachiever

 

Derrek is my poster boy for overachievement.

 

 

To me, Zambrano, Walker, Burnitz, Perez, Williams, Rusch, Hairston Macias and ARam have all been on par with what one would expect.

 

Zambrano has overachieved in one area (IMO). He seems to have been less of a head case this year. He's flourished as the ace of the staff. I've always thought he had great stuff, but (overall) he's developed the mental attitude to go with it this year. A few hiccups here and there, but nothing like last year.

[Chief_Cardinal]

Welcome to the Forum Amy. Your one of the better posters on Cards Talk so I am glad to see you stop by over here to.

[IlliniAmy]

Welcome to the Forum Amy. Your one of the better posters on Cards Talk so I am glad to see you stop by over here to.

 

Thanks for the shout out and compliment. I don't know how often I'll consistently be here, but for right now I'm really bored at work and waiting on another assignment.

 

This Rivalries section is a great idea. I love that there's a place where discussion between fans of different teams is fostered.

[1908]

Zambrano has overachieved in one area (IMO). He seems to have been less of a head case this year. He's flourished as the ace of the staff. I've always thought he had great stuff, but (overall) he's developed the mental attitude to go with it this year. A few hiccups here and there, but nothing like last year.

Did your maturity peak at 23? I know mine didn't.

[IlliniAmy]

Zambrano has overachieved in one area (IMO). He seems to have been less of a head case this year. He's flourished as the ace of the staff. I've always thought he had great stuff, but (overall) he's developed the mental attitude to go with it this year. A few hiccups here and there, but nothing like last year.

Did your maturity peak at 23? I know mine didn't.

 

Actually, no, at the age of 23, I made the really immature decision to marry a Cubs fan. :wink:

[gus_dog]

Amy, why are you here? Tired of CardsTalk?

[IlliniAmy]

Amy, why are you here? Tired of CardsTalk?

 

You seem upset gus_dog. I thought we were cool. If my presence bothers you, I'll be glad to refrain from participating here, as I respect you.

[gus_dog]

Amy, why are you here? Tired of CardsTalk?

 

You seem upset gus_dog. I thought we were cool. If my presence bothers you, I'll be glad to refrain from participating here, as I respect you.

 

Upset? :lol: How could you possibly garner that emotion from a couple of questions? Not upset..., simply curious.

[indifferent]

Amy, why are you here? Tired of CardsTalk?

 

You seem upset gus_dog. I thought we were cool. If my presence bothers you, I'll be glad to refrain from participating here, as I respect you.

 

Upset? :lol: How could you possibly garner that emotion from a couple of questions? Not upset..., simply curious.

 

No Gus, great minds think alike! Welcome Amy!

[IlliniAmy]

Amy, why are you here? Tired of CardsTalk?

 

You seem upset gus_dog. I thought we were cool. If my presence bothers you, I'll be glad to refrain from participating here, as I respect you.

 

Upset? :lol: How could you possibly garner that emotion from a couple of questions? Not upset..., simply curious.

 

I'm just bored...haven't had an official assignment at work since early May....so I'm developing more & more bad habits. 8)

[IlliniAmy]

Amy, why are you here? Tired of CardsTalk?

 

You seem upset gus_dog. I thought we were cool. If my presence bothers you, I'll be glad to refrain from participating here, as I respect you.

 

Upset? :lol: How could you possibly garner that emotion from a couple of questions? Not upset..., simply curious.

 

No Gus, great minds think alike! Welcome Amy!

 

Thanks planet. I figure if you participate over here as much as you do, perhaps it's not as "uptight" a place has been portrayed to me previously. I really do like the Rivalries board feature.

[jjgman21]

how is Eckstein not overachieving? already a career high in walks and likely to set his career high in extra base hits. OPS up 70 points from last year, and 90 from the year before.

 

Walker really doesn't seem like an underachievement even with the caveat for injuries. the same argument made about Edmonds applies to him. and we are talking about Larry Walker here. he's Mr. Injury. he'll end up playing in more games for the Cards than he played in 2004.

 

only a Card fan would consider a guy with better numbers than his career averages as an underachiever. the only reason King seems that way is because he was out of his mind last year. what does he need? a 2.00 ERA to satisfy you?

 

only a Card fan would look a gift horse in the mouth like K-town does with Reyes. you know what Reyes has done the past two or three years? hung around the minor leagues and waited for a few mop up shots in September. so what if he made the most of them. there was a reason he was in the minors until September.

 

Rodriquez is another gift horse you're looking into the mouth of. who will have the .811 OPS season, the guy with all the tools and the talent patrolling center for the Cubs, or the career minor leaguer the cards dusted off the scrap heap?

 

but back to the bullpen because you seem to have forgotten a few

 

Isringhausen - career best ERA by well over a run

Tavarez - 1.5 runs below his career ERA

Flores - career minor leaguer keeping his ERA well below league average (another gift horse you guys look into the mouth of)

Thompson - far outperforming any expectations.

Eldred - small sample size, but 2.5 runs better than career ERA

[indifferent]

how is Eckstein not overachieving? already a career high in walks and likely to set his career high in extra base hits. OPS up 70 points from last year, and 90 from the year before.

 

You have a point with Eckstein, but just two weeks ago he was pretty on par with his career averages. He has turned on the burners big time over the last week with has helped his avg. and slugging.

 

Walker really doesn't seem like an underachievement even with the caveat for injuries. the same argument made about Edmonds applies to him. and we are talking about Larry Walker here. he's Mr. Injury. he'll end up playing in more games for the Cards than he played in 2004.

 

Again, career numbers indicate underachievement albeit expected due to injury.

 

only a Card fan would consider a guy with better numbers than his career averages as an underachiever. the only reason King seems that way is because he was out of his mind last year. what does he need? a 2.00 ERA to satisfy you?

 

As is true with most bullpen guys, you can't look at ERA as a prime indicator of performance. His WHIP is above 1.5. The only thing he's overachieving at this season is inflating the ERA of his peers.

 

only a Card fan would look a gift horse in the mouth like K-town does with Reyes. you know what Reyes has done the past two or three years? hung around the minor leagues and waited for a few mop up shots in September. so what if he made the most of them. there was a reason he was in the minors until September.

 

Already agreed as overachiever.

 

Rodriquez is another gift horse you're looking into the mouth of. who will have the .811 OPS season, the guy with all the tools and the talent patrolling center for the Cubs, or the career minor leaguer the cards dusted off the scrap heap?

 

Already agreed as overachiever (and coming back to earth).

 

but back to the bullpen because you seem to have forgotten a few

 

Isringhausen - career best ERA by well over a run

Tavarez - 1.5 runs below his career ERA

Flores - career minor leaguer keeping his ERA well below league average (another gift horse you guys look into the mouth of)

Thompson - far outperforming any expectations.

Eldred - small sample size, but 2.5 runs better than career ERA

 

I know you guys get tired of hearing this, but our starters have gone deep into games this year and the bullpen is being used in the right situations (as was true last year). Yes, we're fortunate to use the same five guys all year.