The Paradox that is Aramis Ramirez

[The Voice of Reason]

After watching Ramirez's play in the Cardinal series, I have concluded that he is one of the most frustrating Cub players to watch of all-time. His talent is enormous. His offensive skills are unquestioned. However, his lack of hustle and poor judgement is downright excruciating. Three times in the four game series his lackadaisical play led to failures to convert double plays (or at least get the lead runner). After each of his mental/physical errors, the Cardinal's scored. IMO, without D. Lee at 1B, Aramis would have about 22 errors instead of 16. His lack of hustle on the fly ball he hit to right (converting a double into a single) was inexcuseable.

 

I found it ironic, when Stoney proposed the Mueller/Manny traded for Aramis (which I think would have been a mistake), many Cubs fans criticized the proposal because of Manny's poor fielding, lack of hustle, etc. The most frustrating thing about Ramirez, is that he could go from a very good player to a geat player simply by working on his defense and hustling.

 

On Saturday, as I rose to applaud as his majestic home run sail onto Waveland, one of the "World's Greatest Fans" that I was surrounded by, commented that Ramirez wouldn't last long on the Cardinals because of his attitude, work ethic, etc. I thought (maybe he's right and that's why they're 18 games in front of the Cubs) but my Cub fan pride wouldn't let me agree with him, so I choose to respond with "Usher, check these guys tickets, they didn't pay for box seats."

[USSoccer]

#1-Aramis is hurt. Even when he is healthy, he's slow, so the whole "he doesn't hustle" thing is absurd. He has enough trouble stretching out hits when healthy; why risk getting hurt when your odds of stretching out a hit are nearly nil? Also, who cares if he doesn't run full out down the line on a routine ground ball? Would you rather him make an out a closer out, at the risk of pulling a quad or groin?

 

#2-He made a couple of dumb mental mistakes that led to bad throws. Most of Aramis' defensive woes had to do with bad footwork. Now, if his legs are hurt, what are the odds his footwork is going to be perfect? Pretty low.

 

I understand the frustration with errors, and making mistakes on DP's, but to call him a paradox, or lazy is very unfair. He's playing through injuries for the betterment of the team, and IMO the tradoff between his bat and his glove is more than favorable.

[SirPlopigus]

The thing about Manny Ramirez is that he isn't bad at fielding. He leads the ML in assists for outfielders and he is probably the best at playing balls of the Green Monster in Boston

[ddoc12]

#1-Aramis is hurt. Even when he is healthy, he's slow, so the whole "he doesn't hustle" thing is absurd. He has enough trouble stretching out hits when healthy; why risk getting hurt when your odds of stretching out a hit are nearly nil? Also, who cares if he doesn't run full out down the line on a routine ground ball? Would you rather him make an out a closer out, at the risk of pulling a quad or groin?

 

#2-He made a couple of dumb mental mistakes that led to bad throws. Most of Aramis' defensive woes had to do with bad footwork. Now, if his legs are hurt, what are the odds his footwork is going to be perfect? Pretty low.

 

I understand the frustration with errors, and making mistakes on DP's, but to call him a paradox, or lazy is very unfair. He's playing through injuries for the betterment of the team, and IMO the tradoff between his bat and his glove is more than favorable.

 

I wanted to respond to the original post, but the followup couldn't be written any better. Let me add that to suggest Ramirez has a lousy attitude is completely short sighted. He shows up to play every day, even injured, and has never once complained or shown a side of him that would lead anyone to believe his attitude is an issue. On top of it, it is quite clear that he gets along well with his teammates. Errors are part of the game. Sure he could cut down on them but errors happen. Give me Ramirez every day of the week at 3B.

[USSoccer]

Also, few people criticised Stone's idiotic trade because of Manny's defense, or his hustle. What people hated was that it didn't improve the team. It shifted your offensive production from 3B to LF, and didn't improve your offense at all.

[Tracer Bullet]

I agree that ARam has not been hustling. I've read somewhere that he's intentionally not hustling now b/c of his leg injury (so expect some slack here for that). They [EDIT: by "they" I mean the Cubs] would rather have 80% of ARam in the lineup every day than 100% of Macias - a decision I fully agree with.

 

On the other hand, I've seen ARam play seemingly lazy baseball when he's 100% healthy, so I see your point and agree that ARam could be even better if he tried harder. But maybe he's like Manny in that you have to take the good w/ the bad. Given how hard it's been for the Cubs to have even an average 3B since Santo, I guess we'll take what we can get.

 

Oh, and nice dig at the Cards fan. Dig he get booted back to the cheap seats?

Edited August 15, 2005 by yanrslatr

[frostwyrm]

Aram's physique just looks a little soft to me when compared to a lot of other players. All these nagging muscle injuries he gets also make me believe he needs to get more serious about fitness. Next spring I would like to see him with a more chiseled appearance in his lower body. What he needs most of all is some serious work on flexibility so he doesn't keep tweaking muscles. I don't know what type of flexibilty routine he's doing now, but it obviously isn't working very well.

[Tracer Bullet]

Also, who cares if he doesn't run full out down the line on a routine ground ball? Would you rather him make an out a closer out, at the risk of pulling a quad or groin?

 

I understand that he's hurt now, but if he's healthy and can't run full speed to 1B w/o pulling a quad or groin, should he really be playing baseball? And I'm not talking about the freak incidents like Nomar's - that's a very rare occurence. Generally speaking, a player should be able to run to 1B without pulling something. If not, you may be overpaying for an oft-injured slugger (see Griffey Jr., Ken).

[USSoccer]

Also, who cares if he doesn't run full out down the line on a routine ground ball? Would you rather him make an out a closer out, at the risk of pulling a quad or groin?

 

I understand that he's hurt now, but if he's healthy and can't run full speed to 1B w/o pulling a quad or groin, should he really be playing baseball? And I'm not talking about the freak incidents like Nomar's - that's a very rare occurence. Generally speaking, a player should be able to run to 1B without pulling something. If not, you may be overpaying for an oft-injured slugger (see Griffey Jr., Ken).

 

There's a difference between getting hurt when healthy by running hard (which is unlikely), and aggravating an already injured muscle by running hard (very easy to do). I wouldn't want ARam taking the chance of making it worse.

 

I agree with you, though, frost-he needs to become a bit more fit in this offseason. Pileates, yoga, stretching, swimming, whatever, but he needs to find a way to improve his lower body dexterity and fitness.

[treebird]

I hope the people who jump on Aramis for not hustling while playing hurt aren't the same ones who jump on Wood for being "unwilling" to pitch through pain.

[ltb]

The thing about Manny Ramirez is that he isn't bad at fielding. He leads the ML in assists for outfielders and he is probably the best at playing balls of the Green Monster in Boston

 

manny leads in assists since everyone runs on him because he's such a terrible fielder.

[The Voice of Reason]

#1-Aramis is hurt. Even when he is healthy, he's slow, so the whole "he doesn't hustle" thing is absurd. He has enough trouble stretching out hits when healthy; why risk getting hurt when your odds of stretching out a hit are nearly nil? Also, who cares if he doesn't run full out down the line on a routine ground ball? Would you rather him make an out a closer out, at the risk of pulling a quad or groin?

 

#2-He made a couple of dumb mental mistakes that led to bad throws. Most of Aramis' defensive woes had to do with bad footwork. Now, if his legs are hurt, what are the odds his footwork is going to be perfect? Pretty low.

 

I understand the frustration with errors, and making mistakes on DP's, but to call him a paradox, or lazy is very unfair. He's playing through injuries for the betterment of the team, and IMO the tradoff between his bat and his glove is more than favorable.

 

 

Maybe it wasn't clear on TV to you, but on the double play balls hit to him throughout the series, he nonchallantly jogged to third making it necessary to rush his throws to first and which caused the bad throws/errors. Last night there was no reason not to go home first. I wouldn't attribute these mistake to injuries or bad footwork but lack of fundamentals, hustle and mental errors which I blame Dusty Baker for as much as Aramis.

 

Again, Ramirez is a very good player. He could be a great player.

[USSoccer]

#1-Aramis is hurt. Even when he is healthy, he's slow, so the whole "he doesn't hustle" thing is absurd. He has enough trouble stretching out hits when healthy; why risk getting hurt when your odds of stretching out a hit are nearly nil? Also, who cares if he doesn't run full out down the line on a routine ground ball? Would you rather him make an out a closer out, at the risk of pulling a quad or groin?

 

#2-He made a couple of dumb mental mistakes that led to bad throws. Most of Aramis' defensive woes had to do with bad footwork. Now, if his legs are hurt, what are the odds his footwork is going to be perfect? Pretty low.

 

I understand the frustration with errors, and making mistakes on DP's, but to call him a paradox, or lazy is very unfair. He's playing through injuries for the betterment of the team, and IMO the tradoff between his bat and his glove is more than favorable.

 

 

Maybe it wasn't clear on TV to you, but on the double play balls hit to him throughout the series, he nonchallantly jogged to third making it necessary to rush his throws to first and which caused the bad throws/errors. Last night there was no reason not to go home first. I wouldn't attribute these mistake to injuries or bad footwork but lack of fundamentals, hustle and mental errors which I blame Dusty Baker for as much as Aramis.

 

Again, Ramirez is a very good player. He could be a great player.

 

He didn't "nonchallantly" jog. He is hurt! Your lateral movement and ability to have a quick first step is hampered when you have leg injuries. He made a couple of bad throws, because of a mental mistake in the 6th last night, and his footwork isn't very good right now, but it's not a lack of "hustle".

 

Honestly, stop listening to talk radio. The same people who rip ARam for being lazy or not hustling are the very same who ripped Wood and Prior for not pitching through pain. You can't have it both ways. You either accept that a guy playing through pain isn't always going to look quick, look sharp, or be at his best, or you don't cry "lack of heart" when he shuts it down to get healthy. It's faulty logic and it's hypocritical.

[sethuel1]

The thing about Manny Ramirez is that he isn't bad at fielding. He leads the ML in assists for outfielders and he is probably the best at playing balls of the Green Monster in Boston

 

Wait, the Red Sox left fielder is the best at playing balls off the Green Monster? Wow! It's almost as if it's his home park or something.

 

Forgive me for not giving him any additional credit for being able to play hops off the wall he stands in front of every day.

[frostwyrm]

He didn't "nonchallantly" jog. He is hurt! Your lateral movement and ability to have a quick first step is hampered when you have leg injuries. He made a couple of bad throws, because of a mental mistake in the 6th last night, and his footwork isn't very good right now, but it's not a lack of "hustle".

 

Honestly, stop listening to talk radio. The same people who rip ARam for being lazy or not hustling are the very same who ripped Wood and Prior for not pitching through pain. You can't have it both ways. You either accept that a guy playing through pain isn't always going to look quick, look sharp, or be at his best, or you don't cry "lack of heart" when he shuts it down to get healthy. It's faulty logic and it's hypocritical.

 

Aram is doing his best in the games, but you could still say he's lazy or lacks heart, in the sense that if he worked harder on physical fitness he probably wouldn't even have these injuries.

[USSoccer]

He didn't "nonchallantly" jog. He is hurt! Your lateral movement and ability to have a quick first step is hampered when you have leg injuries. He made a couple of bad throws, because of a mental mistake in the 6th last night, and his footwork isn't very good right now, but it's not a lack of "hustle".

 

Honestly, stop listening to talk radio. The same people who rip ARam for being lazy or not hustling are the very same who ripped Wood and Prior for not pitching through pain. You can't have it both ways. You either accept that a guy playing through pain isn't always going to look quick, look sharp, or be at his best, or you don't cry "lack of heart" when he shuts it down to get healthy. It's faulty logic and it's hypocritical.

 

Aram is doing his best in the games, but you could still say he's lazy or lacks heart, in the sense that if he worked harder on physical fitness he probably wouldn't even have these injuries.

 

That's true, but that isn't the argument being made.

[The Voice of Reason]

#1-Aramis is hurt. Even when he is healthy, he's slow, so the whole "he doesn't hustle" thing is absurd. He has enough trouble stretching out hits when healthy; why risk getting hurt when your odds of stretching out a hit are nearly nil? Also, who cares if he doesn't run full out down the line on a routine ground ball? Would you rather him make an out a closer out, at the risk of pulling a quad or groin?

 

#2-He made a couple of dumb mental mistakes that led to bad throws. Most of Aramis' defensive woes had to do with bad footwork. Now, if his legs are hurt, what are the odds his footwork is going to be perfect? Pretty low.

 

I understand the frustration with errors, and making mistakes on DP's, but to call him a paradox, or lazy is very unfair. He's playing through injuries for the betterment of the team, and IMO the tradoff between his bat and his glove is more than favorable.

 

 

Maybe it wasn't clear on TV to you, but on the double play balls hit to him throughout the series, he nonchallantly jogged to third making it necessary to rush his throws to first and which caused the bad throws/errors. Last night there was no reason not to go home first. I wouldn't attribute these mistake to injuries or bad footwork but lack of fundamentals, hustle and mental errors which I blame Dusty Baker for as much as Aramis.

 

Again, Ramirez is a very good player. He could be a great player.

 

He didn't "nonchallantly" jog. He is hurt! Your lateral movement and ability to have a quick first step is hampered when you have leg injuries. He made a couple of bad throws, because of a mental mistake in the 6th last night, and his footwork isn't very good right now, but it's not a lack of "hustle".

 

Honestly, stop listening to talk radio. The same people who rip ARam for being lazy or not hustling are the very same who ripped Wood and Prior for not pitching through pain. You can't have it both ways. You either accept that a guy playing through pain isn't always going to look quick, look sharp, or be at his best, or you don't cry "lack of heart" when he shuts it down to get healthy. It's faulty logic and it's hypocritical.

 

 

Let the record show that when he was in Pittsburgh, Aramiz was consistently criticized for not hustling and poor fundamentals. Was he hurt the whole time in Pittsburgh as well? Please, I won't compare your logic to Dusty Baker's, if you don't compare mine to Mike North (WSCR). :D

[AAApittsburgh]

Let the record show that when he was in Pittsburgh, Aramiz was consistently criticized for not hustling and poor fundamentals. Was he hurt the whole time in Pittsburgh as well? Please, I won't compare your logic to Dusty Baker's, if you don't compare mine to Mike North (WSCR). :D

Maybe not the whole time, but he was hurt a lot in Pittsburgh. Although he didn't really do anything to solve the problem so I guess you can criticize him for that. I think saying that he is the most frustrating Cubs player to watch is just a bit overboard though. *cough*Corey Patterson*cough*

[USSoccer]

Voice,

 

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh, but this subject keeps coming up and it frustrates me. He's playing through pain, which is something that should be appreciated, and not nitpicked when he makes a mistake or isn't running as hard as he normally would.

 

Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much. :D

[BigbadB]

There's playing through pain, but there's also poor judgment or laziness when you stand there and watch a ball land in fair territory, turning a potential double into a single.

 

Aramis is my favorite Cub player, but he does have a laziness about him that frustrates me at times.

[cjbucks]

I think Aramis is a good player who could be great with a little work. Having said that - standing in the batters box watching a pop fly fall in is not being injured it's being lazy - at least start jogging out of the box.

[USSoccer]

Let the record show that when he was in Pittsburgh, Aramiz was consistently criticized for not hustling and poor fundamentals. Was he hurt the whole time in Pittsburgh as well? Please, I won't compare your logic to Dusty Baker's, if you don't compare mine to Mike North (WSCR). :D

Maybe not the whole time, but he was hurt a lot in Pittsburgh. Although he didn't really do anything to solve the problem so I guess you can criticize him for that. I think saying that he is the most frustrating Cubs player to watch is just a bit overboard though. *cough*Corey Patterson*cough*

 

He missed most of 2002 with a very bad ankle injury, and was still feeling the effects of that through the 1st 3 months of 2003, so yeah, he was hurt in the majority of his time in Pittsburgh.

 

And if I were the Cubs, I would reccomend a good personal trainer to work with Aramis on flexibility and dexterity this winter.

[The Voice of Reason]

Voice,

 

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh, but this subject keeps coming up and it frustrates me. He's playing through pain, which is something that should be appreciated, and not nitpicked when he makes a mistake or isn't running as hard as he normally would.

 

Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much. :D

 

No big deal US. I've been married 15 years and am very used to getting nitpicked (and nagged) :)

 

I honestly think Ramirez could be the next Pujols if he adopted some of Prince Albert's work habits. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think a lot of ARam's nagging injuries could be avoided with better diet, conditioning and training. One would think with the money the Cubs are paying him, he could afford a personal trainer. With Leyland as manager next year (wishful thinking), any POSSIBLE lack of hustle would not be tolerated.

[cjbucks]

Voice,

 

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh, but this subject keeps coming up and it frustrates me. He's playing through pain, which is something that should be appreciated, and not nitpicked when he makes a mistake or isn't running as hard as he normally would.

 

Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much. :D

 

No big deal US. I've been married 15 years and am very used to getting nitpicked (and nagged) :)

 

I honestly think Ramirez could be the next Pujols if he adopted some of Prince Albert's work habits. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think a lot of ARam's nagging injuries could be avoided with better diet, conditioning and training. One would think with the money the Cubs are paying him, he could afford a personal trainer. With Leyland as manager next year (wishful thinking), any POSSIBLE lack of hustle would not be tolerated.

 

If you don't hustle for Leyland does he make you sit in the dugout and smoke cigs with him :?: :lol:

[The Voice of Reason]

Voice,

 

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh, but this subject keeps coming up and it frustrates me. He's playing through pain, which is something that should be appreciated, and not nitpicked when he makes a mistake or isn't running as hard as he normally would.

 

Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much. :D

 

No big deal US. I've been married 15 years and am very used to getting nitpicked (and nagged) :)

 

I honestly think Ramirez could be the next Pujols if he adopted some of Prince Albert's work habits. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think a lot of ARam's nagging injuries could be avoided with better diet, conditioning and training. One would think with the money the Cubs are paying him, he could afford a personal trainer. With Leyland as manager next year (wishful thinking), any POSSIBLE lack of hustle would not be tolerated.

 

If you don't hustle for Leyland does he make you sit in the dugout and smoke cigs with him :?: :lol:

 

Yes, but when the smoke finally clears he'll let you look at his World Series ring.

Edited August 15, 2005 by The Voice of Reason