Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This reminds me when I saw this Sunday's Post-Dispatch. Three of their columnists did a top 5 and bottom 5 teams, and the Cubs were on the bottom 5 in 2 of the lists. One had them below the Rockies.

 

I don't know if they are worse that the Rockies, but they are pretty bad.

 

Well sure, but consider all of baseball. Tampa, KC, Pittsburgh, Colorado are all locks at the bottom, and that takes up 4 of the 5 spots. Throw in the other 6-7 teams that have worse Winning % than the Cubs, and it's pretty apparent that there's bias/bitterness/pettyness at work there.

[vaball]

Same thing regarding Pujols vs. Jones vs. Lee for MVP. Joe Buck (whom I generally like) said yesterday he finds the comparisons between Pujols and Jones for MVP, "ridiculous". Why?

 

Because they are. Jones isn't even the MVP of his own team. The numbers on this are obvious to anyone who choses to look. It's not even close, like with Pujols and Lee.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Same thing regarding Pujols vs. Jones vs. Lee for MVP. Joe Buck (whom I generally like) said yesterday he finds the comparisons between Pujols and Jones for MVP, "ridiculous". Why?

 

Because they are. Jones isn't even the MVP of his own team. The numbers on this are obvious to anyone who choses to look. It's not even close, like with Pujols and Lee.

 

I agree, I don't know the exact context of Buck's quote, but looking strictly at Pujols v. Jones, there's no contest.

[vaball]

This reminds me when I saw this Sunday's Post-Dispatch. Three of their columnists did a top 5 and bottom 5 teams, and the Cubs were on the bottom 5 in 2 of the lists. One had them below the Rockies.

 

I don't know if they are worse that the Rockies, but they are pretty bad.

 

Well sure, but consider all of baseball. Tampa, KC, Pittsburgh, Colorado are all locks at the bottom, and that takes up 4 of the 5 spots. Throw in the other 6-7 teams that have worse Winning % than the Cubs, and it's pretty apparent that there's bias/bitterness/pettyness at work there.

 

I'm not saying the Cubs are as bad as KC or Tampa, but compare the relative resources and the Cubs have bungled this season pretty damn badly.

 

It also seems to me like accusing people from St. Louis, even so called "journalists," of bias against the Cubs is kind of like Todd Walker complaining that Cards announcers are biased.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This reminds me when I saw this Sunday's Post-Dispatch. Three of their columnists did a top 5 and bottom 5 teams, and the Cubs were on the bottom 5 in 2 of the lists. One had them below the Rockies.

 

I don't know if they are worse that the Rockies, but they are pretty bad.

 

Well sure, but consider all of baseball. Tampa, KC, Pittsburgh, Colorado are all locks at the bottom, and that takes up 4 of the 5 spots. Throw in the other 6-7 teams that have worse Winning % than the Cubs, and it's pretty apparent that there's bias/bitterness/pettyness at work there.

 

I'm not saying the Cubs are as bad as KC or Tampa, but compare the relative resources and the Cubs have bungled this season pretty damn badly.

 

It also seems to me like accusing people from St. Louis, even so called "journalists," of bias against the Cubs is kind of like Todd Walker complaining that Cards announcers are biased.

 

I guess I have different expectations of the local TV outlet compared to the Sunday edition of a newspaper with the scope of the P-D. To each their own I guess.

[vaball]

This reminds me when I saw this Sunday's Post-Dispatch. Three of their columnists did a top 5 and bottom 5 teams, and the Cubs were on the bottom 5 in 2 of the lists. One had them below the Rockies.

 

I don't know if they are worse that the Rockies, but they are pretty bad.

 

Well sure, but consider all of baseball. Tampa, KC, Pittsburgh, Colorado are all locks at the bottom, and that takes up 4 of the 5 spots. Throw in the other 6-7 teams that have worse Winning % than the Cubs, and it's pretty apparent that there's bias/bitterness/pettyness at work there.

 

I'm not saying the Cubs are as bad as KC or Tampa, but compare the relative resources and the Cubs have bungled this season pretty damn badly.

 

It also seems to me like accusing people from St. Louis, even so called "journalists," of bias against the Cubs is kind of like Todd Walker complaining that Cards announcers are biased.

 

I guess I have different expectations of the local TV outlet compared to the Sunday edition of a newspaper with the scope of the P-D. To each their own I guess.

 

Yeah, one expects a little more out of print journalism, but when it comes to a rivalry like Cubs-Cardinals it affects everyone. Only disinterested third-parties are capable of unbias.

[K-Town]

As you will quickly find out ,now that you're a Missouri resident, there is a definite "small market" inferiority complex among St. Louis sports fans and media. Flip the script, and give Carpenter Clemens' stats and the team, and give Clemens Carpenter's stats and team and they'd swear Carpenter should win the Cy Young. To me, there are great arguments for both guys, but I hate how in St. Louis there seems to be a great feeling of injustice if Carpenter doesn't win it. I just find it remarkable how any pitcher pitching in Minute Maid half the time can have a below 2.00 ERA. Same thing regarding Pujols vs. Jones vs. Lee for MVP. Joe Buck (whom I generally like) said yesterday he finds the comparisons between Pujols and Jones for MVP, "ridiculous". Why?

 

Really? Have you read my opinions in the "MVP" thread? Not biased toward Pujols, at all. How about the thread titled "Who will win the World Series". My pick? Not the Cardinals, but the Red Sox.

 

Did I campaign for ANY Cardinal to win ANY award last year? No. I believe that Bonds deserved the MVP, and there were no Cardinal pitchers worthy of the Cy Young Award. So you point isn't really valid.

 

If Clemens and Carpenter had their numbers reversed, would I be clamoring for Carpenter as the Cy Young winner? I'm not sure. It's certainly a close enough contest that a little "Redbird bias" can sway me. It's those of you who think it's a "no brainer" for Clemens who are biased. There's a VERY solid case for Carpenter to win, because he has the whole package, not just the ERA title.

 

 

Oh, and Andruw Jones doesn't belong in the MVP conversation with Pujols, and it is pretty much "ridiculous" that he's mentioned.

Edited September 6, 2005 by K-Town

[K-Town]

Yeah, Clemens really bailed. He said to himself, "I might be able to help the team further, but I might gain a little bit in ERA so I better not risk it. I'll just make up some stuff about my hamstring".

 

If by "most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year" you mean middle of the road with a slight lean towards hitters, than you'd be right. Busch is much more of a pitcher's park this year than MMP, but then again, I never brought up or even insinuated park factors were an issue.

 

You're right. When I checked park factors a couple of weeks ago, Minute Maid was playing as a pitcher's park. It's not so now, so I stand corrected.

 

Regardless, Carpenter has a 1.13 ERA at Minute Maid. Pettite and Oswalt both have better ERA's at Minute Maid than Clemens does. So it's not like it's some sort of miracle that Clemens is able to perform well at Minute Maid.

 

As for him "bailing out", all I know is that twice within the last month or so, he's left a game when his team REALLY needed him. Carpenter hasn't.

[cubsfromMD]

Yeah, Clemens really bailed. He said to himself, "I might be able to help the team further, but I might gain a little bit in ERA so I better not risk it. I'll just make up some stuff about my hamstring".

 

If by "most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year" you mean middle of the road with a slight lean towards hitters, than you'd be right. Busch is much more of a pitcher's park this year than MMP, but then again, I never brought up or even insinuated park factors were an issue.

 

You're right. When I checked park factors a couple of weeks ago, Minute Maid was playing as a pitcher's park. It's not so now, so I stand corrected.

 

Regardless, Carpenter has a 1.13 ERA at Minute Maid. Pettite and Oswalt both have better ERA's at Minute Maid than Clemens does. So it's not like it's some sort of miracle that Clemens is able to perform well at Minute Maid.

 

As for him "bailing out", all I know is that twice within the last month or so, he's left a game when his team REALLY needed him. Carpenter hasn't.

 

 

I have been following this thread for a little while now and there is a point that I dont think anyone has raised yet. When a pitcher throws for a team with a terrible offense he will almost always have fewer innings pitched because he will frequently be pulled for a pinch hitter. I dont have the numbers, but I am fairly confident that Roger has left most of his games this year in favor of a pinch hitter rather than a call to the bullpen. Cant blame the manager or the pitcher for that, if you have runners on after the fifth or sixth inning in a scoreless game and your pitcher is coming up who wouldnt hit for him?

 

I would be curioust to see the number of time clemens and carp have left games for a pinch hitter vs a relief pitcher if anyone knows how/where to find them.

[K-Town]

Yeah, Clemens really bailed. He said to himself, "I might be able to help the team further, but I might gain a little bit in ERA so I better not risk it. I'll just make up some stuff about my hamstring".

 

If by "most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year" you mean middle of the road with a slight lean towards hitters, than you'd be right. Busch is much more of a pitcher's park this year than MMP, but then again, I never brought up or even insinuated park factors were an issue.

 

You're right. When I checked park factors a couple of weeks ago, Minute Maid was playing as a pitcher's park. It's not so now, so I stand corrected.

 

Regardless, Carpenter has a 1.13 ERA at Minute Maid. Pettite and Oswalt both have better ERA's at Minute Maid than Clemens does. So it's not like it's some sort of miracle that Clemens is able to perform well at Minute Maid.

 

As for him "bailing out", all I know is that twice within the last month or so, he's left a game when his team REALLY needed him. Carpenter hasn't.

 

 

I have been following this thread for a little while now and there is a point that I dont think anyone has raised yet. When a pitcher throws for a team with a terrible offense he will almost always have fewer innings pitched because he will frequently be pulled for a pinch hitter. I dont have the numbers, but I am fairly confident that Roger has left most of his games this year in favor of a pinch hitter rather than a call to the bullpen. Cant blame the manager or the pitcher for that, if you have runners on after the fifth or sixth inning in a scoreless game and your pitcher is coming up who wouldnt hit for him?

 

I would be curioust to see the number of time clemens and carp have left games for a pinch hitter vs a relief pitcher if anyone knows how/where to find them.

 

Last month, he left a game with a bad back.

 

Last weekend, he left a game with a hamstring problem.

 

 

He's not being pulled for a pinch-hitter, typically. Clemens is averaging 101.7 pitches per game. Carpenter is averaging 98.8. Clemens is going as deep into a game as he can go. He's just not working as efficiently as Carpenter.

 

On a sidenote: I think it's weird that some posters claim that Carpenter is being abused by Larussa, when Clemens is throwing more pitches, in fewer innings.

[cubsfromMD]

Yeah, Clemens really bailed. He said to himself, "I might be able to help the team further, but I might gain a little bit in ERA so I better not risk it. I'll just make up some stuff about my hamstring".

 

If by "most extreme pitchers parks in baseball this year" you mean middle of the road with a slight lean towards hitters, than you'd be right. Busch is much more of a pitcher's park this year than MMP, but then again, I never brought up or even insinuated park factors were an issue.

 

You're right. When I checked park factors a couple of weeks ago, Minute Maid was playing as a pitcher's park. It's not so now, so I stand corrected.

 

Regardless, Carpenter has a 1.13 ERA at Minute Maid. Pettite and Oswalt both have better ERA's at Minute Maid than Clemens does. So it's not like it's some sort of miracle that Clemens is able to perform well at Minute Maid.

 

As for him "bailing out", all I know is that twice within the last month or so, he's left a game when his team REALLY needed him. Carpenter hasn't.

 

 

I have been following this thread for a little while now and there is a point that I dont think anyone has raised yet. When a pitcher throws for a team with a terrible offense he will almost always have fewer innings pitched because he will frequently be pulled for a pinch hitter. I dont have the numbers, but I am fairly confident that Roger has left most of his games this year in favor of a pinch hitter rather than a call to the bullpen. Cant blame the manager or the pitcher for that, if you have runners on after the fifth or sixth inning in a scoreless game and your pitcher is coming up who wouldnt hit for him?

 

I would be curioust to see the number of time clemens and carp have left games for a pinch hitter vs a relief pitcher if anyone knows how/where to find them.

 

Last month, he left a game with a bad back.

 

Last weekend, he left a game with a hamstring problem.

 

 

He's not being pulled for a pinch-hitter, typically. Clemens is averaging 101.7 pitches per game. Carpenter is averaging 98.8. Clemens is going as deep into a game as he can go. He's just not working as efficiently as Carpenter.

 

On a sidenote: I think it's weird that some posters claim that Carpenter is being abused by Larussa, when Clemens is throwing more pitches, in fewer innings.

 

 

Ok, that is two starts, they have made close to 30, I'm pretty certain that he didnt leave most games with injuries

[Transmogrified Tiger]

As you will quickly find out ,now that you're a Missouri resident, there is a definite "small market" inferiority complex among St. Louis sports fans and media. Flip the script, and give Carpenter Clemens' stats and the team, and give Clemens Carpenter's stats and team and they'd swear Carpenter should win the Cy Young. To me, there are great arguments for both guys, but I hate how in St. Louis there seems to be a great feeling of injustice if Carpenter doesn't win it. I just find it remarkable how any pitcher pitching in Minute Maid half the time can have a below 2.00 ERA. Same thing regarding Pujols vs. Jones vs. Lee for MVP. Joe Buck (whom I generally like) said yesterday he finds the comparisons between Pujols and Jones for MVP, "ridiculous". Why?

 

Really? Have you read my opinions in the "MVP" thread? Not biased toward Pujols, at all. How about the thread titled "Who will win the World Series". My pick? Not the Cardinals, but the Red Sox.

 

Did I campaign for ANY Cardinal to win ANY award last year? No. I believe that Bonds deserved the MVP, and there were no Cardinal pitchers worthy of the Cy Young Award. So you point isn't really valid.

 

He was talking about the STL media, not any individual poster. Not that he would know since you've only been with us for 3 weeks.

 

If Clemens and Carpenter had their numbers reversed, would I be clamoring for Carpenter as the Cy Young winner? I'm not sure. It's certainly a close enough contest that a little "Redbird bias" can sway me. It's those of you who think it's a "no brainer" for Clemens who are biased. There's a VERY solid case for Carpenter to win, because he has the whole package, not just the ERA title.

 

This is getting out of hand. They have nearly identical K rates and WHIPs. Carpenter walks fewer guys, Clemens gives up fewer home runs. Your entire argument is predicated on the fact that Carpenter pitching more innings at that pace makes him better, which has been refuted by metrics that take this into account. Then we go off into situational nonsense in an attempt to basically cut down Clemens for whatever reason, logical or not, with a sidetrack into team dependent rubbish like Wins and team success. This, all without bringing up the fact the near three quarters of a run difference in their ERAs. What "whole package" are you talking about?

[K-Town]

Ok, that is two starts, they have made close to 30, I'm pretty certain that he didnt leave most games with injuries

 

No. Most games he left because his pitch count was too high to realistically expect him to continue. He's inefficient. He has to work too hard to get through 6 or 7 innings, so he's not there for his team in innings 8 and 9 (kinda like Mark Prior).

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

No. Most games he left because his pitch count was too high to realistically expect him to continue. He's inefficient. He has to work too hard to get through 6 or 7 innings, so he's not there for his team in innings 8 and 9 (kinda like Mark Prior).

 

And you know all of this for a fact? Wow, I didn't know they let Cardinal fans into the Astros dugout.

 

CPATTERSON20: This argument is getting out of hand. It's obvious this guy won't listen to stats. He'd rather make half baked accusations about Clemens being out of gas all the time, or bring up the fact that Clemens pulled himself with a bad back a few weeks ago... but fail to mention that it was after his 8th shutout inning that day. He's a homer, and he won't listen to anyone else's rational opinion as long as a Cardinal is involved in the race for the award.

[wekse]

that's a cheapshot, but i expect nothing less from you...prior has nothing to do with the discussion

[K-Town]

that's a cheapshot, but i expect nothing less from you...prior has nothing to do with the discussion

 

 

It wasn't meant as a cheap shot. I'd take Prior on my staff in a HEARTBEAT. He's a great pitcher. But can't you admit that it's frustrating that he hasn't learned how to go deeper into games?

[K-Town]

No. Most games he left because his pitch count was too high to realistically expect him to continue. He's inefficient. He has to work too hard to get through 6 or 7 innings, so he's not there for his team in innings 8 and 9 (kinda like Mark Prior).

 

And you know all of this for a fact? Wow, I didn't know they let Cardinal fans into the Astros dugout.

 

CPATTERSON20: This argument is getting out of hand. It's obvious this guy won't listen to stats. He'd rather make half baked accusations about Clemens being out of gas all the time, or bring up the fact that Clemens pulled himself with a bad back a few weeks ago... but fail to mention that it was after his 8th shutout inning that day. He's a homer, and he won't listen to anyone else's rational opinion as long as a Cardinal is involved in the race for the award.

 

 

Really? Have you read the MVP thread? Show me my "homerism" there.

 

Have you read the World Series thread? Where's my homerism there?

 

I'm not making "half baked" accusations. Clemens throws more pitches, in fewer innings, than Carpenter. That's a fact. And I don't need to be in the Astros' dugout to know what's going on. I'm smart enough to know that Garner isn't going to send a 43-year old pitcher back to the mound when he's thrown over 100 pitches.

 

It's also a fact that Clemens pulled himself out of 2 games in the last month.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Really? Have you read the MVP thread? Show me my "homerism" there.

 

Have you read the World Series thread? Where's my homerism there?

 

I'm not making "half baked" accusations. Clemens throws more pitches, in fewer innings, than Carpenter. That's a fact. And I don't need to be in the Astros' dugout to know what's going on. I'm smart enough to know that Garner isn't going to send a 43-year old pitcher back to the mound when he's thrown over 100 pitches.

 

It's also a fact that Clemens pulled himself out of 2 games in the last month.

 

Well, considering that even you've called yourself a homer in this thread on many occasions, yes, you are a homer.

 

Yeah, Clemens pulled himself out of a game... AFTER 8 SHUTOUT INNINGS. You keep forgetting to mention that fact. And no, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why Garner pulls Clemens. You have your opinion of why he does. Stop trying to pass that off as fact.

 

Your arguments here aren't very valid. You back nothing up with stats. You base all of this Clemens stuff on your OPINION. And the worst part is that you're really starting to get on many of the regular poster's nerves.

 

If you want to talk about this race, that's fine. But don't pull stuff out of the air. At least have some reasonable information to back it up.

[K-Town]

Really? Have you read the MVP thread? Show me my "homerism" there.

 

Have you read the World Series thread? Where's my homerism there?

 

I'm not making "half baked" accusations. Clemens throws more pitches, in fewer innings, than Carpenter. That's a fact. And I don't need to be in the Astros' dugout to know what's going on. I'm smart enough to know that Garner isn't going to send a 43-year old pitcher back to the mound when he's thrown over 100 pitches.

 

It's also a fact that Clemens pulled himself out of 2 games in the last month.

 

Well, considering that even you've called yourself a homer in this thread on many occasions, yes, you are a homer.

 

Yeah, Clemens pulled himself out of a game... AFTER 8 SHUTOUT INNINGS. You keep forgetting to mention that fact. And no, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why Garner pulls Clemens. You have your opinion of why he does. Stop trying to pass that off as fact.

 

Your arguments here aren't very valid. You back nothing up with stats. You base all of this Clemens stuff on your OPINION. And the worst part is that you're really starting to get on many of the regular poster's nerves.

 

If you want to talk about this race, that's fine. But don't pull stuff out of the air. At least have some reasonable information to back it up.

 

I'm a "homer", to some extent. I think we all are, as fans. But I think that this part of your statement has been proven wrong on at least a couple of occasions: and he won't listen to anyone else's rational opinion as long as a Cardinal is involved in the race for the award.

 

You want "reasonable stuff"? You mean like the 9 extra "meaningless" wins? You mean like the K/BB ratio? You mean like the fact that Carpenter will have pitched the equivalent of 4 extra games over Clemens this year? You mean the precedent that's been set by the voters over and over again that tells me that Carpenter is a reasonable candidate for the Cy Young Award. All of those things are FACTS, not "my opinions".

 

As far as my arguments not being "valid", I wasn't award that you were the God of Validity. I'll check in with you from now on.

 

Yes, Clemens went 8 innings before pulling himself out. Last I checked, a game doesn't end after 8 (Carpenter knows it, Clemens apparently hasn't figured that out yet).

[rocket]

What is with your obsession with the 8th and 9th innings? GMs hire pitchers for the sole purpose of pitching in those innings.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

You know what, yep, you win.

 

Chris Carpenter (Or should I call him Christ Carpenter? Is that more fitting?) is the greatest pitcher of all time. The St. Louis Cardinals are the best thing ever to happen to this planet, and anyone who doesn't agree will not make it to heaven. Roger Clemens is a horrible pitcher who doesn't even deserve to catch the home run balls that Carp throws up. You win, congratulations. Lets forget about the previous 30 pages where people consistently proved your stats wrong or meaningless. And we'll just all go back to watching cartoons in my basement while eating Apple Jacks.

[wekse]

i like apple jacks!!

[K-Town]

What is with your obsession with the 8th and 9th innings? GMs hire pitchers for the sole purpose of pitching in those innings.

 

 

Great. They hire pitchers for the 6th & 7th, too. So why not just expect 4 or 5 innings from our starters? In fact, there are 6 relievers in the bullpen, so why not just use the starter for 3 innings, and let everyone else go 1 inning each?

 

It's not an "obsession", but Carpenter has saved the bullpen some innings this year, and it's made them more effective.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

i like apple jacks!!

 

Come on over! We've got plenty!

[wekse]

i like apple jacks!!

 

Come on over! We've got plenty!

 

YES!!! i'll bring a bowl and a spoon!