Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I'll give you this much, K-Town: You ARE persistent! ](*,) :wink:

 

Yeah, I have to give the guy credit. He goes behind enemy lines and sticks to his guns. If one of us tried that at Cards Talk, we wouldn't last. Then again, it's an entirely different atmosphere over there. A lot of hatred toward our kind...

[K-Town]

By my count, the Astros have only won 2 games all year in whcih Clemens didn't get a decision. I think they've lost 7. In those 7 games, Clemens' value was zilch (no fault of Clemens). The Astros lost the game with Clemens. They could have just as easily lost the game with a no-name Double A pitcher on the mound.

 

And 4 of those losses the Astros scored 0 runs. What exactly did you want out of Clemens? A 10 inning (or more) shutout so that the Stros could finally score a run?

 

Nope. Clemens did all he could. But if your team loses, how much value did you provide your team that day? There's no value in losing.

 

Again, not Clemens' fault, but his team could have gotten the exact same ultimate results if you or I had been pitching that day, so what good did he do them?

 

The Cy Young award is for the best pitcher, not the best pitcher in the context of his team. This isn't the MVP. Who has dominated the opposition with the most consistency? That is your award winner. You can make an argument for how valuable a player is to his team for the MVP, but nowhere in the description f the Cy Young does it say anything about value, just performance. And Roger has performed better than Carpenter.

 

Hypothetically, a great pitcher can make 35 starts for a team with no offense, and go something like 10-15 with a 1.00 ERA and .70 WHIP. Another pitcher can go 25-5 with a 2.50 ERA and 1.20 WHIP for a team that scores him a load of runs. Do you punish the better pitcher because his team can't score? No, you give him the award because he was better.

 

You would think so, but that's not at all what happened last year. It seems to me that the voters are willing to use whatever logic is convenient for Clemens.

[K-Town]

I'll give you this much, K-Town: You ARE persistent! ](*,) :wink:

 

Yeah, I have to give the guy credit. He goes behind enemy lines and sticks to his guns. If one of us tried that at Cards Talk, we wouldn't last. Then again, it's an entirely different atmosphere over there. A lot of hatred toward our kind...

 

It depends which board you go to. The only reason I'm on this particular Cubs board is because you guys are unusually reasonable.

 

By the way, I'm not so much "persistent" as "bored". :lol:

[K-Town]

Clemens should probably win, if the award is given out today. But Carpenter sure has been a bulldog, and is putting up some amazing numbers.

[wolf stansson]

A lot of hatred toward our kind...

Yeah it gets annoying sometimes. I don't get it, but it seems like my fellow Cardinals fans sometimes have a chip on their shoulder towards Cubs fans. I don't get why they feel insecure when you look at the team's records, but for some reason they do.

[Guest]

By my count, the Astros have only won 2 games all year in whcih Clemens didn't get a decision. I think they've lost 7. In those 7 games, Clemens' value was zilch (no fault of Clemens). The Astros lost the game with Clemens. They could have just as easily lost the game with a no-name Double A pitcher on the mound.

 

And 4 of those losses the Astros scored 0 runs. What exactly did you want out of Clemens? A 10 inning (or more) shutout so that the Stros could finally score a run?

 

Nope. Clemens did all he could. But if your team loses, how much value did you provide your team that day? There's no value in losing.

 

Again, not Clemens' fault, but his team could have gotten the exact same ultimate results if you or I had been pitching that day, so what good did he do them?

Say Clemens pitches against the Cubs tomorrow while Carpenter starts against the Reds. In his start, the Rocket's line is 9 IP/1 ER but he takes the loss because the Astros were blanked by the miraclous return of the Zombie Three Finger Brown. Carpenter also has a good game and gets a win, giving up three runs over seven innings while the Cards offense roughs up the Reds pitcher du jour for nine runs.

 

What picher provided the most value, in the sense of contributing the most "wins" to his team? Clemens. It doesn't matter that his team that his team ended up losing the game, his performance was much more valuable than Carpenter's. The difference is that Clemens' teammates lack of (or negative) value led to a loss, whereas the Card's victory was mostly due to the potent linuep than any value contributed by Carpenter.

 

Using your logic, it would make more sense to give the NL Cy Young to Pujols and company than to Carpenter. They're the reason he has a better W/L record than Clemens.

[gus_dog]

A lot of hatred toward our kind...

Yeah it gets annoying sometimes. I don't get it, but it seems like my fellow Cardinals fans sometimes have a chip on their shoulder towards Cubs fans. I don't get why they feel insecure when you look at the team's records, but for some reason they do.

 

I just think there's a whole bunch of youthful exhuberance over there (read:immature young fellas) on that board, and it shows.

 

It used to be better, but recently, I don't even read that board, let alone post there.

[XZero771679666304]

By my count, the Astros have only won 2 games all year in whcih Clemens didn't get a decision. I think they've lost 7. In those 7 games, Clemens' value was zilch (no fault of Clemens). The Astros lost the game with Clemens. They could have just as easily lost the game with a no-name Double A pitcher on the mound.

 

And 4 of those losses the Astros scored 0 runs. What exactly did you want out of Clemens? A 10 inning (or more) shutout so that the Stros could finally score a run?

 

Nope. Clemens did all he could. But if your team loses, how much value did you provide your team that day? There's no value in losing.

 

Again, not Clemens' fault, but his team could have gotten the exact same ultimate results if you or I had been pitching that day, so what good did he do them?

 

The Cy Young award is for the best pitcher, not the best pitcher in the context of his team. This isn't the MVP. Who has dominated the opposition with the most consistency? That is your award winner. You can make an argument for how valuable a player is to his team for the MVP, but nowhere in the description f the Cy Young does it say anything about value, just performance. And Roger has performed better than Carpenter.

 

Hypothetically, a great pitcher can make 35 starts for a team with no offense, and go something like 10-15 with a 1.00 ERA and .70 WHIP. Another pitcher can go 25-5 with a 2.50 ERA and 1.20 WHIP for a team that scores him a load of runs. Do you punish the better pitcher because his team can't score? No, you give him the award because he was better.

 

You would think so, but that's not at all what happened last year. It seems to me that the voters are willing to use whatever logic is convenient for Clemens.

 

Hey, I was all for RJ winning the Cy last year. Zambrano was even more deserving, numbers-wise. Clemens just happens to deserve it this time.

[wolf stansson]

Hey, I was all for RJ winning the Cy last year. Zambrano was even more deserving, numbers-wise.

Really? I don't remember the stats, but I thought RJ had a better era, IP, and K rate.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hey, I was all for RJ winning the Cy last year. Zambrano was even more deserving, numbers-wise.

Really? I don't remember the stats, but I thought RJ had a better era, IP, and K rate.

 

Johnson: 2.60 ERA, 246.2 IP, 10.62 K/9, .89 WHIP

Zambrano: 2.75 ERA, 210.2 IP, 8.07 K/9, 1.21 WHIP

 

Looks like Johnson was better.

[wolf stansson]

Wow. Randy had a way better year than Clemens.

 

 

 

 

But the wins man...the wins!

[imb]

Hey, I was all for RJ winning the Cy last year. Zambrano was even more deserving, numbers-wise.

Really? I don't remember the stats, but I thought RJ had a better era, IP, and K rate.

 

Johnson: 2.60 ERA, 246.2 IP, 10.62 K/9, .89 WHIP

Zambrano: 2.75 ERA, 210.2 IP, 8.07 K/9, 1.21 WHIP

 

Looks like Johnson was better.

 

I figured he meant that Zambrano was more deserving than Clemens. I dont know that I believe that, but I figured thats what he meant.

[treebird]

let's play with win shares again!

 

2004

 

johnson 25

sheets 21

clemens 20

pavano 20

zambrano 19

 

2005

 

clemens 23

oswalt 18

carpenter 16

willis 15

smoltz 15

 

BUT

 

it should be noted that win shares taking hitting into account too! and it certainly isn't fair to penalize guys for not hitting when we're talking about the cy young. DO IT AGAIN

 

clemens 23

oswalt 19

carpenter 19

smoltz 17

willis 16

[imb]

1 and 1/3 wins more than Carpenter.

[The Voice of Reason]

Evidently MSNBC has been eavesdroping on this discussion.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8999163/

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Clemens got beat tonight by Brewers. Gave up 5 runs, not sure how many were earned though. From what I hear, he looked good up until the last inning or two, that's when Milwaukee scored all their runs. Maybe that ERA won't stay as stellar all season.

 

But ESPN said Clemens has gotten 2 runs or less in 11 of his starts, and he's 1-5 in those starts. He only has five losses on the season.

[gus_dog]

Clemens got beat tonight by Brewers. Gave up 5 runs, not sure how many were earned though. From what I hear, he looked good up until the last inning or two, that's when Milwaukee scored all their runs. Maybe that ERA won't stay as stellar all season.

 

But ESPN said Clemens has gotten 2 runs or less in 11 of his starts, and he's 1-5 in those starts. He only has five losses on the season.

 

See, he can't finish a game..., he's not worthy of Cy Young award consideration since he can't do that. :wink:

[reggiemiller rules]

Clemens got beat tonight by Brewers. Gave up 5 runs, not sure how many were earned though. From what I hear, he looked good up until the last inning or two, that's when Milwaukee scored all their runs. Maybe that ERA won't stay as stellar all season.

 

But ESPN said Clemens has gotten 2 runs or less in 11 of his starts, and he's 1-5 in those starts. He only has five losses on the season.

 

5 of those earned runs were given to Clemens.

[wolf stansson]

He got into the 7th and I knew he was done. He had no control and wasn't finishing his pitches. I think everybody in the stadium knew he was done except Garner.

[K-Town]

Clemens sure is turning it on when his team really needs him, isn't he? He pulled himself out of his last start because of his back. He doesn't last 7 innings this time, and gives up 5 runs, and a lead this time, as his team lost it's 5th game out of its last 6 while dropping out of the Wild Card lead.

 

Clemens is no longer chasing history, so we can put that argument to rest. If Carpenter is lights-out tonight, we may have a race on our hands. We shall see.

[Derwood]

Last night's loss moved Roger's ERA up to 1.53, FYI.

[treebird]

what if the cardinals are smart and have carpenter skip a couple starts?

 

it's best for the team, but that's just weak on carp's part, right? i mean, skipping starts is way worse than coming out an inning early.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

what if the cardinals are smart and have carpenter skip a couple starts?

 

it's best for the team, but that's just weak on carp's part, right? i mean, skipping starts is way worse than coming out an inning early.

 

Would that be smart? I mean he's in a pretty good groove right now. I think missing start would just screw him up. I believe it would be smarter just to put him on a 95 pitch count per game.

[Derwood]

Clemens should win. I mean, without Bonds this year, there is a vaccuum in the "veteran who automatically wins" category.

 

Oh, and he's been awesome.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If the season ended today, I'm still going with Clemens. It's hard to argue with a 1.55 ERA. On the other hand, the season doesn't end today, so as close as this race is the performances from here on out will have a huge bearing on the who wins.