Cubs have such a great minor league that....

[Inthecards]

when is it feasible to start trading for major leaguers...ie cards...we didnt have the great system you guys do but some how we netted edmonds rolen mulder marquis walker..hell most of out team with our minors..Why wont the cubs do this like they did with aram or lee...why hold on to cpat when you could trade for pierre(in theory only) i know you guys have produced Z prior and wood but you guys should USE the minor for winning at the major league level?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

when is it feasible to start trading for major leaguers...ie cards...we didnt have the great system you guys do but some how we netted edmonds rolen mulder marquis walker..hell most of out team with our minors..Why wont the cubs do this like they did with aram or lee...why hold on to cpat when you could trade for pierre(in theory only) i know you guys have produced Z prior and wood but you guys should USE the minor for winning at the major league level?

 

From the system directly:

 

Zambrano

Prior

Wood

Cedeno

Murton

Hill

Wuertz

Ohman

 

From trades involving the system:

 

Lee

Ramirez

Barrett

Williams

Nomar

Hairston

[bannor10]

I agree with you about trading guys to net major league ball players...Gms get scared when Dontrell Willis or Jon Garland start to play well...For the most part I think the cubs should trade away there minor league talent then buy them back in 6 years if they pan out...We should be acting more like the yankees and red sox and use other teams as our minor league system....Keep only 2 or three guys away from the block and trade the others...I would keep only Pie and Harvey but both could be had if it made the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.....

[daske17]

I agree with you about trading guys to net major league ball players...Gms get scared when Dontrell Willis or Jon Garland start to play well...For the most part I think the cubs should trade away there minor league talent then buy them back in 6 years if they pan out...We should be acting more like the yankees and red sox and use other teams as our minor league system....Keep only 2 or three guys away from the block and trade the others...I would keep only Pie and Harvey but both could be had if it made the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.....

 

Well, let's look at the Yankees system. They traded away most of their minor league talent for higher-priced stars, leaving them with a $200 million budget and no exceptional talent pool to draw from. And as we can see, $200 million does not guarantee a WS.

 

For the Cubs to trade away the majority of their farm only to buy them back in free agency leaves the team at a financial disadvantage and potentially gets back guys who have already hit or passed their prime.

 

The Cubs are doing a good job of trading prospects for quality players. Especially in this market, I'd be more apt to continue their SOP than to sell the farm.

[RynoRules]

I agree with you about trading guys to net major league ball players...Gms get scared when Dontrell Willis or Jon Garland start to play well...For the most part I think the cubs should trade away there minor league talent then buy them back in 6 years if they pan out...We should be acting more like the yankees and red sox and use other teams as our minor league system....Keep only 2 or three guys away from the block and trade the others...I would keep only Pie and Harvey but both could be had if it made the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.....

 

Well, let's look at the Yankees system. They traded away most of their minor league talent for higher-priced stars, leaving them with a $200 million budget and no exceptional talent pool to draw from. And as we can see, $200 million does not guarantee a WS.

 

For the Cubs to trade away the majority of their farm only to buy them back in free agency leaves the team at a financial disadvantage and potentially gets back guys who have already hit or passed their prime.

 

The Cubs are doing a good job of trading prospects for quality players. Especially in this market, I'd be more apt to continue their SOP than to sell the farm.

 

Your argument is hurt by the fact that the Yankees won 4 WS in 5 years using the philosophy your describe. If that philosophy netted the Cubs just 1 title, I'd be for it.

[Tim]

I agree with you about trading guys to net major league ball players...Gms get scared when Dontrell Willis or Jon Garland start to play well...For the most part I think the cubs should trade away there minor league talent then buy them back in 6 years if they pan out...We should be acting more like the yankees and red sox and use other teams as our minor league system....Keep only 2 or three guys away from the block and trade the others...I would keep only Pie and Harvey but both could be had if it made the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.....

 

Well, let's look at the Yankees system. They traded away most of their minor league talent for higher-priced stars, leaving them with a $200 million budget and no exceptional talent pool to draw from. And as we can see, $200 million does not guarantee a WS.

 

For the Cubs to trade away the majority of their farm only to buy them back in free agency leaves the team at a financial disadvantage and potentially gets back guys who have already hit or passed their prime.

 

The Cubs are doing a good job of trading prospects for quality players. Especially in this market, I'd be more apt to continue their SOP than to sell the farm.

 

Your argument is hurt by the fact that the Yankees won 4 WS in 5 years using the philosophy your describe. If that philosophy netted the Cubs just 1 title, I'd be for it.

The philosophy the Yankees used to win those titles was based upon building from within. Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Pettitte & the real core of that team all came from the farm. They added role players through trades & FA (such as O'Neill & Tino), but didn't go after the huge stars. When they started shelling out the huge dollars is when they stopped winning titles.

[daske17]

Well, let's look at the Yankees system. They traded away most of their minor league talent for higher-priced stars, leaving them with a $200 million budget and no exceptional talent pool to draw from. And as we can see, $200 million does not guarantee a WS.

 

For the Cubs to trade away the majority of their farm only to buy them back in free agency leaves the team at a financial disadvantage and potentially gets back guys who have already hit or passed their prime.

 

The Cubs are doing a good job of trading prospects for quality players. Especially in this market, I'd be more apt to continue their SOP than to sell the farm.

 

Your argument is hurt by the fact that the Yankees won 4 WS in 5 years using the philosophy your describe. If that philosophy netted the Cubs just 1 title, I'd be for it.

 

That isn't exactly true. The core of those Yankees teams was built from their farm system: Pettitte, Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Williams, etc.

 

Sure, they had the high-profile signings like a Clemens or an O'Neill, but the core of those teams came from their farm system.

 

EDIT: yeah, what Tim said.

[TheRaven]

when is it feasible to start trading for major leaguers...ie cards...we didnt have the great system you guys do but some how we netted edmonds rolen mulder marquis walker..hell most of out team with our minors..Why wont the cubs do this like they did with aram or lee...why hold on to cpat when you could trade for pierre(in theory only) i know you guys have produced Z prior and wood but you guys should USE the minor for winning at the major league level?

 

So you're basing this entire argument off of one trade that didn't happen that was only rumored in theory?

[Jon]

The other part of this is that I want absolutely nothing to do with Juan Pierre.

 

By the way, does anyone know where I can get payroll lists from past years? I know the Yankees had a payroll between $90 and $100 million when they last won the series, but I was wondering how that compared with the other clubs.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

First of all, you realize that Haren is having a better year than Mulder, right? You guys gave up way too much in that trade. Secondly, all of those trades might be the reason why the Cards have one of the lesser minor league systems in the league.

[Outshined_One]

First of all, you realize that Haren is having a better year than Mulder, right? You guys gave up way too much in that trade. Secondly, all of those trades might be the reason why the Cards have one of the lesser minor league systems in the league.

 

Guaranteed Daric Barton will be making Jocketty regret that trade a few years from now.

[RynoRules]

The philosophy the Yankees used to win those titles was based upon building from within. Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Pettitte & the real core of that team all came from the farm. They added role players through trades & FA (such as O'Neill & Tino), but didn't go after the huge stars. When they started shelling out the huge dollars is when they stopped winning titles.

 

Tim: agreed; my point was only that based on his argument - that the Yankee way (which he appeared to associate with excessive spending and building from "without") "is not the way to go" is contradicted by the fact that the Yanks are winding down a fabulously succesful dynasty, and our last dynasty took place about 100 years ago.

 

I agree that the the truly dominant Yankee teams were built around their self-made core: Jeter, Pettite, Rivera, Posada and Bernie. Note that these guys basically represent a Noah's Ark of baseball: one player from each general position (IF, SP, RP, C, OF).

 

The problem the Cubs seem to be having is identifying who their core ,will be. My two cents:

 

SP: Prior

C: Barrett

RP: Wood (if he remains a reliever; if not, like The Waterboy, "the search continues")

OF: Pie? Murton? CPatt? Other?

IF: Lee and Aram.

[Exile on Waveland]

The philosophy the Yankees used to win those titles was based upon building from within. Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Pettitte & the real core of that team all came from the farm. They added role players through trades & FA (such as O'Neill & Tino), but didn't go after the huge stars. When they started shelling out the huge dollars is when they stopped winning titles.

 

Tim: agreed; my point was only that based on his argument - that the Yankee way (which he appeared to associate with excessive spending and building from "without") "is not the way to go" is contradicted by the fact that the Yanks are winding down a fabulously succesful dynasty, and our last dynasty took place about 100 years ago.

 

I agree that the the truly dominant Yankee teams were built around their self-made core: Jeter, Pettite, Rivera, Posada and Bernie. Note that these guys basically represent a Noah's Ark of baseball: one player from each general position (IF, SP, RP, C, OF).

 

The problem the Cubs seem to be having is identifying who their core ,will be. My two cents:

 

SP: Prior

C: Barrett

RP: Wood (if he remains a reliever; if not, like The Waterboy, "the search continues")

OF: Pie? Murton? CPatt? Other?

IF: Lee and Aram.

 

I'd think the Cubs might want to designate that Zambrano guy as a "core" player.

[RynoRules]

I am not so sure. I like Z very much, but he's a bit unpredictable in terms of his emotional outbursts and temper. Prior, when healthy, is more of a solid presence, I think.

 

That said, I would not be opposed to adding Z to the list. But if keeping him meant Prior does not make list, I'd lose Z.

[TruffleShuffle]

First of all, you realize that Haren is having a better year than Mulder, right? You guys gave up way too much in that trade. Secondly, all of those trades might be the reason why the Cards have one of the lesser minor league systems in the league.

 

Yes, but they also have had the best team in the NL the last two seasons and possibly beyond that. Look at who's playing for them. Aside from the obvious homegrown guy (Pujols) they have:

 

Nunez (FA)

Grudz (FA)

Eckstein (FA)

Rolen (Acq via trade)

Molina (Home grown)

Diaz (FA)

Sanders (FA)

Edmonds (Acq via trade)

Walker (Acq via trade)

Taguchi ("Home grown")

Mabry (FA)

Luna (Rule V)

Carpenter (FA)

Marquis (Acq via trade)

Morris (home grown)

Suppan (FA)

Mulder (acq via trade)

Tavarez (FA)

King (Acq via trade)

Reyes (FA)

Izzy (FA)

Thompson (home grown)

Flores (FA)

Eldred (FA)

 

(I'm not counting losers like Seabol, Rodriguez and Schumaker since they really are just around due to injuries... but I know the first two were minor league FAs)

 

So that's:

 

14 FA

6 Acq via trade

4 home grown

1 Rule V

 

 

FOUR home grown players. People act like it's the worst thing in the world to not have home grown talent, but there's an organization that has put together the best team in the NL with a reasonable payroll using mostly talent from the outside. The point is, if you aren't going to have a strong minor league system, at least use some of the guys you do have in the minors to trade for productive major leaguers (like Edmonds, Rolen, King, Marquis and Mulder), and make free agent signings that give you good value. I think Carpenter was kind of a roll of the dice, but Sanders was an excellent value at $3M per, and Grudz at $1M was a good deal as well. Eckstein stays healthy and can get on base a little bit for the $3M per year they gave him, which is good value for a SS.

 

Ideally, it would be nice to have a team that is completely home grown. But the fact of the matter is that many prospects don't pan out. I'm sure Cardinal fans could care less that their minor league system is terrible, considering that they won the pennant last year and are the favorites to do so again this year. If you have a chance to deal prospects for an impact player at the major league level, it's usually a smart idea to do so. But if you're doing it, get a Jim Edmonds, a Scott Rolen or even a young starter and a LOOGY (King), not a Matt Karchner. And when it comes time to sign free agents to patch the holes at the big league level, you need to make smart signings like Reggie Sanders, rather than the duds that the Cubs have historically made, like Steve Buechele and Jeff Blauser.

[jyoung55]

I agree with you about trading guys to net major league ball players...Gms get scared when Dontrell Willis or Jon Garland start to play well...For the most part I think the cubs should trade away there minor league talent then buy them back in 6 years if they pan out...We should be acting more like the yankees and red sox and use other teams as our minor league system....Keep only 2 or three guys away from the block and trade the others...I would keep only Pie and Harvey but both could be had if it made the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.....

 

Well, let's look at the Yankees system. They traded away most of their minor league talent for higher-priced stars, leaving them with a $200 million budget and no exceptional talent pool to draw from. And as we can see, $200 million does not guarantee a WS.

 

For the Cubs to trade away the majority of their farm only to buy them back in free agency leaves the team at a financial disadvantage and potentially gets back guys who have already hit or passed their prime.

 

The Cubs are doing a good job of trading prospects for quality players. Especially in this market, I'd be more apt to continue their SOP than to sell the farm.

 

Your argument is hurt by the fact that the Yankees won 4 WS in 5 years using the philosophy your describe. If that philosophy netted the Cubs just 1 title, I'd be for it.

The philosophy the Yankees used to win those titles was based upon building from within. Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Pettitte & the real core of that team all came from the farm. They added role players through trades & FA (such as O'Neill & Tino), but didn't go after the huge stars. When they started shelling out the huge dollars is when they stopped winning titles.

 

Posada as well correct? The Yanks seem to go in cycles... before they won they seemed to buy old guys and had no real farm system (the Mattingly era) then after enough losing Steinbrenner left the team alone and they built their farm system up that produced all of their players up the middle. And they won. Now Steinbrenner is getting his hands dirty and screwing things up again and they should get worse before better.