Underachieving or Not very good??

[NomarSammy]

I have decided that I am a true fan and I will obviously hang with 'em, but I have found myself asking this question alot lately--

 

are the cubs really underachieving and lazy or are they just not very good?

 

I honestly don't know the answer, I thought for a long time that they were underachievers, but the more i have thought, I just really don't see how they are any better than any of these other teams. Are they really better than the Phils or the Mets--not to metion the Astros????--heck are they any better than the Brew Crew?

[ltb]

this team is much more talented than their record shows.

 

the entire coaching staff needs to be fired.

[barrettismyidol]

Underachieving and lazy, plus a horrible coaching staff. It sometimes seems like the team plays with no motivation whatsoever and are just going through the motions. Very frustrating to watch day after day.

[SwisherSweet]

Look at the outfield. We have one decent leadoff hitter, a crappy slappy centerfielder who's not tall enough to ride rollercoasters, and an all-or-nothing right fielder who's more than capable of hitting below .210 the rest of the year.

 

This team is not good because Jim Hendry made it this way. Not because they're underachieving. If Derrek Lee hit his typical .270 the first half, we'd be 15 games under .500, so it's unfortunate in that sense that we had the illusion that they had a chance.

[Soul]

They are playing like a .500 ballclub because that's what they are.

[dalgreen]

Look at the outfield. We have one decent leadoff hitter, a crappy slappy centerfielder who's not tall enough to ride rollercoasters, and an all-or-nothing right fielder who's more than capable of hitting below .210 the rest of the year.

 

This team is not good because Jim Hendry made it this way. Not because they're underachieving. If Derrek Lee hit his typical .270 the first half, we'd be 15 games under .500, so it's unfortunate in that sense that we had the illusion that they had a chance.

 

Bingo. Nice to see some people can see what this team really is. If you go back to March there were plenty of people saying we're going to have problems scoring runs. All I have to say is how many good teams would have Jeromy Burnitz hitting fourth or fifth? And that's because on this poor makeup of a team he almost has to. Think about it, if any other team had Hairston, Burnitz, Hollandsworth/Dubois, Patterson and Perez in the lineup everyday, we would say that team could lose 95-100 games. But because it's our team that is forced to play these type of players then we become blinded into thinking that this team is underachieving. This was not a well assembled team, and when you add a below average strategic manager that spells trouble.

[Mark Priors Calves]

They are playing like a .500 ballclub because that's what they are.

 

Unfortunately, they aren't even playing .500 ball right now. That's how bad its gotten.

[Soul]

They are playing like a .500 ballclub because that's what they are.

 

Unfortunately, they aren't even playing .500 ball right now. That's how bad its gotten.

 

True ](*,)

[Derwood]

Lee clearly played way above his head, and it shows now since Ramirez is about to surpass him in run production numbers. Neifi also overachieved for the most part. Barrett is #1 in the majors (I think) in RBI at the catcher spot.

 

Prior and Wood got hurt, and have been hot/cold when healthy. Maddux is showing his age, and Zambrano has pitched some 8 inning, 0 ER games and gotten 0 or 1 run of support. He should have 12 wins by now easily. Williams has been as good as one could expect.

 

The bullpen has been about what you'd expect considering their level of experience. Hawkins was a disaster and was traded. Wuertz has been overworked, Novoa has done what you expect from an unheralded rookie, and Dempster has exceeded my expectations. I really like Williamson, and want to see more from him.

 

For next year, I would like to see some positional battles in spring training. Pie should be given a chance to compete at CF, but should not be put on the bench if he doesn't blow people away. Cedeno and Murton should have shots at winning every day jobs as well. I would like to see Aardsma in September this year with a shot at the pen also.

 

Unfortunately, a big hole will be OF, which is pretty weak in this year's free agent market. Some creative trades might be necessary.

[William142]

I have decided that I am a true fan and I will obviously hang with 'em, but I have found myself asking this question alot lately--

 

are the cubs really underachieving and lazy or are they just not very good?

 

I honestly don't know the answer, I thought for a long time that they were underachievers, but the more i have thought, I just really don't see how they are any better than any of these other teams. Are they really better than the Phils or the Mets--not to metion the Astros????--heck are they any better than the Brew Crew?

 

They should be better than this. The pitching staff should have kept them well above .500.

[AcesHigh]

Any team that has Prior, Z, Maddux in the rotation, a soild closer and the best 1-2 punch in baseball(statistically) in ARam and DLee and is STILL under .500? Underacheiving.

[Soul]

Any team that has Prior, Z, Maddux in the rotation, a soild closer and the best 1-2 punch in baseball(statistically) in ARam and DLee and is STILL under .500? Underacheiving.

 

Didn't have Dempster all year.....he's good now though, although he doesn't get many opportunities lately.

 

Maddux: you're talking Maddux in his prime. Now, he's only good some of the time. Prior is fine, but hasn't been here all year.

 

We really have had Z, a terrible middle relief staff, and part-time contributions from Prior, Dempster, & Wood. Doesn't sound as great now, does it...

 

It's a .500 ballclub.

[XZero771679666304]

Any team that has Prior, Z, Maddux in the rotation, a soild closer and the best 1-2 punch in baseball(statistically) in ARam and DLee and is STILL under .500? Underacheiving.

 

Didn't have Dempster all year.....he's good now though, although he doesn't get many opportunities lately.

 

Maddux: you're talking Maddux in his prime. Now, he's only good some of the time. Prior is fine, but hasn't been here all year.

 

We really have had Z, a terrible middle relief staff, and part-time contributions from Prior, Dempster, & Wood. Doesn't sound as great now, does it...

 

It's a .500 ballclub.

 

In it's current incarnation, yes. Now back in ST I thought the team might have trouble scoring runs consistently. But in ST it also looked like we'd have a rotation with Prior, Wood, Z and Maddux in it, and the lineup would have Nomar (who was white hot in ST), Lee and Ramirez anchoring it. I never thought Burnitz would bat higher than sixth. The bullpen was questionable, but I thought Dempster was going to close from the outset (as he should have, and we would have a few more wins if he had).

 

But of course Dempster didn't close, and was terrible as a starter when Rusch should have been. Dusty ruined Fox and Hawkins. (how many more games would the Cubs have won if Rusch were starting, Dempster closing with Hawk and Fox setting him up from the beginning?) Nomar got hurt, and Ramirez didn't show up until May because of his back. Dusty wasted a month's worth of games by batting Patterson and Perez at the top of the order. Wood got hurt. Prior got hurt. Walker got hurt. Holla slumped for an entire month while Dusty waited for Dubois to cool off before starting him. Neifi played maybe the worst offensive ball for a regular in the game from May-July, but Dusty kept running him out there. Now Lee desperately needs a rest, but no one seems to notice. Now you could have forseen a few injuries, but Nomar's was totally unrelated to his past injuries, Prior got smoked by a line drive, and Baker pushed Fox way too far way too soon, and Walker got rolled by Carlos Lee. Those couldn't have been predicted.

 

Now despite the rash of injuries, blatant mismanagement and total lack of discipline and accountability, the team is barely under .500. I don't hold out more than the faintest hope of reaching the postseason anymore. Now having said that, the team assembled in ST, if managed correctly and with even half the injuries, would have been at least 15-20 games better than the current Cubs record. Not a division winner, but at least where Houston is now. Inconsistent, but easily more talented than the Houston Astros.

 

I never expected 95 wins, but I sure didn't see this coming in March. You may say you did, but unless you are clairvoyant you didn't, because unless all the injuries/mismanagemnt hadn't happened the team would clearly be well over .500. The team is bad right now, but it didn't have to be this way.

[Rusch33]

Underachievement badly.

[Sarcastic]

The team would be well under .500 if DLee wasn't doing so well, but he is. I hate hearing that line. If, if, if, if. If Prior and Zambrano were playing up to their potential, our pitching staff wouldn't be so mediocre. If Maddux was having his usual second half surge, we'd be better off. If Corey Patterson hadn't lost everything, our CF situaton would have been a lot better. If Nomar hadn't gotten injured for most of the season, we wouldn't have the worst starting short stop in the MLB.

 

Lots of things could have happened that didn't so I don't think saying the Cubs have been lucky to get as far as they have is anywhere close to accurate.

 

They aren't talentless. They're just unforgivably sloppy and miserable when it matters.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

They're underachieving because of bad management.

 

First, how long did we have a manager who structured the line-up with Perez and Patterson at the top?

 

How many times did our manager misuse the bullpen to tragic results?

 

Third, Murton, a hitter with a .400+ average, continues to lose playing time to the likes of Macias and before him, Hollandsworth.

 

We could go on and on, but baseball is a difficult game. There's probably more parity than many want to believe, and when your team has weaknesses as ours does, you have to maximize all your efforts. We do not and I think the blame for that lies for the one who sits in the Big Chair.

 

If this team had Bobby Cox for a manager, we'd be ten games over 500 right now.

[XZero771679666304]

They're underachieving because of bad management.

 

First, how long did we have a manager who structured the line-up with Perez and Patterson at the top?

 

How many times did our manager misuse the bullpen to tragic results?

 

Third, Murton, a hitter with a .400+ average, continues to lose playing time to the likes of Macias and before him, Hollandsworth.

 

We could go on and on, but baseball is a difficult game. There's probably more parity than many want to believe, and when your team has weaknesses as ours does, you have to maximize all your efforts. We do not and I think the blame for that lies for the one who sits in the Big Chair.

 

If this team had Bobby Cox for a manager, we'd be ten games over 500 right now.

 

If we had Bobby Cox for a manager and Leo Mazzone as a pitching coach, we'd be 20 games over .500 right now.

[Soul]

XZ, I agree we would be a much better team without all the injuries and mismanagement.

 

Trouble is, we knew Dusty's shortcomings before the season started, and we pretty much knew there would be alot of injuries. You had to figure in the contingencies. Most teams would be significantly better if everything went perfectly. The trick is, what obstacles will appear for that team and how badly will it hurt them? In the Cubs' case, the obstacles in terms of injury and poor management were likely to be pretty massive. And most of them materialized, unfortunatley.

[XZero771679666304]

XZ, I agree we would be a much better team without all the injuries and mismanagement.

 

Trouble is, we knew Dusty's shortcomings before the season started, and we pretty much knew there would be alot of injuries. You had to figure in the contingencies. Most teams would be significantly better if everything went perfectly. The trick is, what obstacles will appear for that team and how badly will it hurt them? In the Cubs' case, the obstacles in terms of injury and poor management were likely to be pretty massive. And most of them materialized, unfortunatley.

 

The thing is that everything wouldn't have had to go perfectly for the Cubs to be better. Everything bad that has happened has been exacerbated by Baker. We knew his shortcomings prior to the season, but Dusty has really raised the bar for ineptitude this season. It's just sad.

[rawaction]

The pitching staff is severely underachieving. More had to be expected out of Wood, Maddux, Rusch (since move to pen), Wuertz and even the guys that aren't up anymore, Wellemeyer, Leicester, Bartosh, etc. This is a not a 4.37 ERA pitching staff, talent-wise.

 

The offense, just isn't that good. Burnitz was an average at best corner OF, if all went right. Patterson and Holla/Dubois was destined to be below average. Barrett has flaws, and the bench is just inexpicably bad.

 

Overall, I would say that this team is more "not that good" than underachieving. The fact is every post, every publication and prognostication read, "......if the Cubs can stay healthy". When you build a team full of injury questions and guys who are below average, you can't be surprised when they get injured.

[CarolinaCubFan]

They're underachieving because of bad management.

 

First, how long did we have a manager who structured the line-up with Perez and Patterson at the top?

 

How many times did our manager misuse the bullpen to tragic results?

 

Third, Murton, a hitter with a .400+ average, continues to lose playing time to the likes of Macias and before him, Hollandsworth.

 

We could go on and on, but baseball is a difficult game. There's probably more parity than many want to believe, and when your team has weaknesses as ours does, you have to maximize all your efforts. We do not and I think the blame for that lies for the one who sits in the Big Chair.

 

If this team had Bobby Cox for a manager, we'd be ten games over 500 right now.

 

Amen Brother. I feel much the same way, this team has been been flat out mismanaged.

 

Hendry had this team headed in the right direction back when NSBB was getting it's start. Prior, Wood, and Zambrano with Guzman, Brownlie, and Sisco all on the verge. Cpatt was showing us he was for real, we had a stud at the black hole known as 3B, and we had money freeing up. I love the Cubs, but for the first time, I was truly fired up about this club. I was excited when Hendry went out and got Baker. A lot of Giants fans came over to Cubs.com to say congrats - and "good luck". I see what they were talking about now.

 

Dusty Baker is said to be a good manager, but he just isn't a good fit for this club. We've had money and young talent, yet still haven't made a good run since 03. I know several of you like to laugh at team chemistry, we'll have to agree to disagree. The current state of this team is unhealthy for young talent, and our farm system is too good to be used the way it has. Baker has used guys like Marcais and Perez over our young guys, which blows my mind that he feels that is logic reasoning. Mike Remlinger DFA'd! When used right, there was an 80% chance he'd get the out for you, unbelievable. Cpatt was the only young positional player locked in, but he's no longer around.... I'm not saying, I'm just saying, you know.

 

With saying that, if Baker is Managing this team in 06, Hendry can catch a ride out of town with Baker. If I'm not getting my job done at work, my boss is going to let me know it. I like Hendry, but if he doesn't address this situation sternly, then he's failing at his job as far as I'm concerned.

 

When Hendry stood still this past offseason, I didn't have much confidence about this team. We have a chance in 06, but Hendry is going to have to make a command decision about which way this team is going to go. We are going to have to make trades, and that will cost us talent. I want to see Pie, everyone else is free game in my book. If we can land the pieces we need through trade, lets do it. No reason in waiting for a 8th pitcher to develop in three more years, I want to win now dang it.

 

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox - this team is mismanaged.

[Jazz]

id echo must every statement already made in this thread, but id also like to ask one thing, did hendry really put out the best team he possibly could going into this season?

[Beer Kaese]

We should know if Murton or Cedeno can play at the major league level.

 

I love Perez as a utility infielder. I love Hollandsworth off the bench, backing my corner outfielders.

 

It was Dusty Baker that stayed with bench guys who were as productive as Corey was when he got sent down. (Neifi .220/.248/.312 in June and .233/.245/.330 in July and Todd .197/.260/.348 in July)

 

My vote would be "mismanaged by a moron".

[Satch80]

I think the team was poorly constructed. We are near the top in HR and BA, yet below average in RS. Scoring runs is how you win games. But to do that, you need base runners.

 

We don't have many for two reasons.

1. We don't walk...we're 27th in BB

2. We have too many high K, low contact hitters.

 

A by-product of this is giving the opposing pitcher many easy innings which in turn keeps him strong and keeps us out of the weak middle relief.

 

We have our RBI men in Aram and DLee and to some extent Burnitz. But we also need on base types to set the table, put pressure on the defense, score runs.

 

We also have below average defense up the middle which one rarely sees in championship teams. Barrett is defensively challenged, for sure. Walker ...not great. Nomar has below average range. True he hasn't played much, but this is the team constructed.

 

Being without a true closer for so long really hurt as did the injuries to Prior and Wood. But injuries happen and solidly constructed teams can overcome them.

 

Dusty is what he is, a manager that relys on veterans obviously to a fault. But the pieces he had to work with do not compliment his style. He likes veterans because he doesn't like to teach or correct players. He expects them to understand fundamentals and not make foolish mistakes.

So players who do not have high baseball IQs like Barrett, Walker, Hairston should not be acquired for a Baker team. They won't be benched for stupidity ( not Baker's style) so it sets a precedent that lapses are tolerated. Just as hitting is contagious, so are mistakes.

 

If you don't understand the person who will manage the team you are constructing you're not doing your job.

Baker would not be my choice of manager but if I hired him, I'd make certain to assemble not only a competitive team but one that would work well with the manager.

[Sarcastic]

I think the team was poorly constructed. We are near the top in HR and BA, yet below average in RS. Scoring runs is how you win games. But to do that, you need base runners.

 

We don't have many for two reasons.

1. We don't walk...we're 27th in BB

2. We have too many high K, low contact hitters.

 

](*,) The Cubs are not below average in RS. Until they started their most recent nosedive they were well above average. I don't know if you realize this, but while getting on base is important for scoring, with the right amount of power and hits, a walk deficiency can be overcome. IT IS NOT COMPLETELY NECESSARY TO HAVE A HIGH OBP. Adding more power and BA can be just as good as adding more OBP, although at least until recently, it was usually more expensive. Also, the team is NOT strike out prone. In fact, even after this disgusting slide in fourth place, they still have the fourth least strike outs in the MLB.

 

That said, I agree that the team would benefit from being more patient and taking more walks, but they don't have the players for it. Besides, what team wouldn't benefit from being more patient? That's like saying the team would benefit from hitting more home runs (which it would.)

 

On defense, you are right that the team does not have great fielders up the middle, but while that would help, I don't think it will ever sink a potential contender unless the defense is really terrible and the team has a low strikeout, high groundball staff.

 

As for injuries, teams that are sufficiently good and balanced (without one or two specific star players that must take the team on their shoulders) can get past limited injuries, but you can't expect the bench to be as good as the starters. I don't think the injuries the Cubs sustained hurt them much more than they would have hurt any team. You can't expect the two best starters and one of the best batters to go down long term and have the depth for it to not be a problem.

 

Finally, on Baker. Well, he is a very convienent scape goat. We see him make idiotic managing mistakes in game and get ticked off. The blame for that rests on him. As does the blame for playing Hollandsworth over Murton (though some seem to see him as the second coming of Jesus Christ, like they saw Dubois and Cedeno before him). But I think it is a big leap to blame the team's sloppy play and terrible situational hitting on him as well. Some of the blame does rest with him as the manager, but some rest with luck, and some with the players. And we definitely can't blame most of the strokes of bad luck on him. He didn't make Nomar tear his groin, and he didn't make Hawp nail Prior. And though he is not the best manager, and it would be good if he left soon, I don't see why some people need to villainize him.