2006 - Vets or Kids

[TheDude]

This thread isn't meant to imply this season has been packed-up just yet. I just wanted to talk about next year since it is on my mind.

 

As I see it, there are two distinct directions this team can take for 2006. A run with vets (reload) or a glide with youth through growing pains (mini-rebuild) and make a substantial run in 2007.

 

Generic Vets supplemented lineup (assumes some resigns of current vets):

1 - FA OF (Damon/Lawton/proven leadoff ideal)

2 - Garciaparra SS

3 - Lee 1B

4 - Ramirez 3B

5 - Walker 2B

6 - FA OF

7 - Barret C

8 - FA OF

 

Specific Kids supplemented lineup:

1 - FA OF (Damon/Lawton/proven leadoff ideal)

2 - Pie/Patterson OF

3 - Lee 1B

4 - Ramirez 3B

5 - Walker 2B

6 - Murton/prospect OF

7 - Barret C

8 - Cedano SS

 

The real difference in these lineups is 4 slots are filled with FA in one, while 3 of those are filled with prospects in the other.

 

Ignore for a moment the exact hitting locations in the lineup, or the suggested FA, and just consider the list as the starting roster by position. Because the discussion isn't supposed to be about who hits where in the lineup, or what specific FA to acquire, but rather what style of lineup and management. Because obviously an off-season acquisition of Dunn in the first proposal jumbles up half the lineup, so those elements are inconsequential to the main point.

 

Either of these is how I see the team shaping up next year, and frankly, it seems hinged upon whether or not Dusty remains the manager of this team.

 

What is your preference? I prefer the latter, with the open money available used to shore up the youth pitching on this team for the long-term (if necessary), or to retooling the back end of the bullpen by landing a bonified closer or gambling on another Hawkins/Remlinger based on previous 2 year performance (3rd time has to be the charm right?:)).

 

I want to see what the talent we have in the minors can do. And maybe one of these kids blossoms in 2006 to the point he can be a substantial chip to whatever the "big acquisition" is going into 2007.

 

Or, alternatively, does anybody see other possibilities for this team that I am missing? One might suggest a mixture of the two, but if Baker sticks around, I do not want to see another halk-baked attempt at mixing the two strategies - it will not do the kids any good, and half-baked is rarely an answer to anything in life.

 

Cheers.

[badgercub]

This thread isn't meant to imply this season has been packed-up just yet. I just wanted to talk about next year since it is on my mind.

 

As I see it, there are two distinct directions this team can take for 2006. A run with vets (reload) or a glide with youth through growing pains (mini-rebuild) and make a substantial run in 2007.

 

Generic Vets supplemented lineup (assumes some resigns of current vets):

1 - FA OF (Damon/Lawton/proven leadoff ideal)

2 - Garciaparra SS

3 - Lee 1B

4 - Ramirez 3B

5 - Walker 2B

6 - FA OF

7 - Barret C

8 - FA OF

 

Specific Kids supplemented lineup:

1 - FA OF (Damon/Lawton/proven leadoff ideal)

2 - Pie/Patterson OF

3 - Lee 1B

4 - Ramirez 3B

5 - Walker 2B

6 - Murton/prospect OF

7 - Barret C

8 - Cedano SS

 

The real difference in these lineups is 4 slots are filled with FA in one, while 3 of those are filled with prospects in the other.

 

Ignore for a moment the exact hitting locations in the lineup, or the suggested FA, and just consider the list as the starting roster by position. Because the discussion isn't supposed to be about who hits where in the lineup, or what specific FA to acquire, but rather what style of lineup and management. Because obviously an off-season acquisition of Dunn in the first proposal jumbles up half the lineup, so those elements are inconsequential to the main point.

 

Either of these is how I see the team shaping up next year, and frankly, it seems hinged upon whether or not Dusty remains the manager of this team.

 

What is your preference? I prefer the latter, with the open money available used to shore up the youth pitching on this team for the long-term (if necessary), or to retooling the back end of the bullpen by landing a bonified closer or gambling on another Hawkins/Remlinger based on previous 2 year performance (3rd time has to be the charm right?:)).

 

I want to see what the talent we have in the minors can do. And maybe one of these kids blossoms in 2006 to the point he can be a substantial chip to whatever the "big acquisition" is going into 2007.

 

Or, alternatively, does anybody see other possibilities for this team that I am missing? One might suggest a mixture of the two, but if Baker sticks around, I do not want to see another halk-baked attempt at mixing the two strategies - it will not do the kids any good, and half-baked is rarely an answer to anything in life.

 

Cheers.

 

I would like to see Hendry package some prospects and make some trades either this year or in the offseason to address some of the needs. There isn't much out there in FA next year so I think this would be the most logical move. You could also see one or two slots filled with some of the youngsters. You have to remember that Walker, Nomar are not under contract and I believe the Cubs have an option on Burnitz (maybe mutual) so you maybe looking at all new outfielders and new double play combination next year.

[CuseCubFan69]

I think the key to long term success is to blend in the youth with the vets.

[sccubbies]

I look for it to be something like this....

1. OF- Damon or Lawton, hopefully Damon

2. SS- Garciaparra

3. 1B- Lee

4. 3B- Aramas

5. 2B- TWalk

6. OF- Pie or Patterson

7. OF- Murton

8. C- Barrett

 

I think this team can win, it can do a lot. We will have speed with 2 of the 3 OF spots. Power with Lee and Aramas. And a lot of good OBP with Damon, Nomar, TWalk, Murton.

 

The staff is something like

1. Prior

2. Z

3. Wood or Maddux or J Will

4. Wood or Maddux or JWill

5. Rich Hill, I def. want to see him in the rotation the whole year next year. Think about guys this is our chance to be great Prior, Z, and Hill.

[chicubs]

I think this really was the year to have the kids play, but it obviously didnt turn out that way.

 

The whole question is kinda pointless, though, since Dusty will still be our manager next year.

[mhuber92211]

I think I see some similarities in '06 & '89. Why not go for broke and have an OF of Murton/Patterson/Pie and an INF of AR, Cedeno, Fonetnot & Lee? Rotation of Prior, Z, Williams, Wood & Hill. Pen of Dempster, Williamson, Wuertz, Pinto, Ohman & Aardsma?

 

How bad could that team really do?

[NewUserName]

Team that i would like to see next year, lined up by position.

Lee 1b

Fontenot 2b

Cedeno ss

Ramirez 3b

Murton LF

Pie CF

Burnitz RF

 

Young, Heck yes but alot more exciting to watch than this years team.

 

Now for the team that I am almost willing to be money will be starting

Lee 1b

Walker 2b Cant have too many rookies will be the reason

Perez ss Will be brought in as an insurance policy Dusty will name him the starter the day he is signed and get arrested for insurance fraud midway through the season

Ramirez 3b

Lofton LF Also brought in as an insurance policy. Hendry wanted to give job to Murton. After not playing at all in April, Murton will finally be named the starter in Mid-May and hit 320 but will make a critical error. He will be sent back to the bench only to start every 10th day. His average will dip to 290 and he will be traded for a more well rounded player in early July

Patterson CF Pie was clearly the better player in Spring but Dusty wanted a "proven player" out there. Pie will be sent to AAA After Patterson struggles most of the season the Cubs will land Todd Hollandsworth in a trade and will move Lofton to center

Burnitz RF

[Fro]

I think only one of the starters will be a prospect, if that. We're not going to start 4 ?s in the field with the kind of money the Tribune can and should spend on the team.

 

Considering I think Nomar takes a pay cut and stays our SS, there's not much room for prospects to start. Probably just one OF, maybe 2B depending on how things shake out. I don't think Pie will jump to being a big-league starter until 07.

[TheDude]

I think only one of the starters will be a prospect, if that. We're not going to start 4 ?s in the field with the kind of money the Tribune can and should spend on the team.

Yes, in principle this is true. But after you analyze the free agent market, you begin to wonder if that is truly going to be worth it.

 

Do you really want to ink a mediocre player long-term and miss out on the better looking FA market after next season?

 

This is part of the equation.

[ConstableRabbit]

I think I see some similarities in '06 & '89. Why not go for broke and have an OF of Murton/Patterson/Pie and an INF of AR, Cedeno, Fonetnot & Lee? Rotation of Prior, Z, Williams, Wood & Hill. Pen of Dempster, Williamson, Wuertz, Pinto, Ohman & Aardsma?

 

How bad could that team really do?

 

I don't think that such a team would be terrible, but I think we'd be better off with Nomar and Walker up the middle. I know this is blasphemy on this site, but I haven't been very impressed with Cedeno. For a player who doesn't have much to offer hitting-wise, he sure does make a lot of errors. Now, his playing time relative to Neifi is a different story - he should be playing and Perez should be on the pine - but compared to Nomar? Bench him. Walker is also a proven vet (a true proven vet, not Dusty's definition of one) and he's a bigtime gamer. Plus, he and Nomar are already familar with each other as far as the DP goes. I don't have a problem with Murton or Pie getting a chance, and if Patterson can prove himself, I welcome him. Despite his freeswinging past, he still has the potential to be a great hitter, and he's already a great fielder. I like the idea of a young pen, but I always get nervous thinking of how they'll be able to deal with the pressure. I'd like to see another veteran in there.

[erik316wttn]

I think the key to long term success is to blend in the youth with the vets.

 

As it is with all teams who become successful.

 

We need the vets here like Lee, Ramirez, Nomar and Walker (IMO, anyway, some people will probably disagree), and Barrett, but as far as Murton, Greenberg, Cedeno (as a backup and off-day giver to Nomar and Walker), Pie, etc go, they all should be given thier fair shot at success, even if it means passing on a vet. There really isn't much out there this year anyway except Giles, and I don't mind a 2006 opening day OF of Murton, Patterson/Greenberg, Pie. Give the kids a shot.

[LuvChicagoSports]

First let me say that if the Cubs don't make the playoffs this season I don't think Dusty Baker will be the manager next season because the Cubs will want to see the kids play and the front office knows just as well as the fans that nobody is going to see that with Dusty writing out the lineup. I'll give my two lineups and they are going to be identified not as vet-kids, but as playoffs-non playoffs (meaning this season).

 

First I'll give the if we get lucky and make the playoffs this season which I don't think will happen and I am VERY glad Hendry didn't trade one of the promising young prospects.

 

1. Lawton lf (if we make the playoffs he will be a huge part and resigned)

2. Garciaparra SS

3. Lee 1b

4. Burnitz rf

5. Ramirez 3b

6. Walker 2b

7. Patterson cf

8. Barrett c

9. Prior

 

This is a veteran filled lineup that will be put together knowing Dusty won't play young guys. Garciappara would sign a 2 or 3 year deal in hopes of going back to the playoffs with the Cubs because he loved the atmosphere. Walker loves Chicago so he resigns. Lawton is resigned because Dusty finally realizes obp is an important stat, but will only use it if a veteran is who gets to play. Patterson gets called up to play instead of Pie because he's done it before.

 

Here is my lineup that is just a possibility and is written by a different manager because Dusty is run out of town.

 

1. Damon/Lawton of (position is determined in Spring training)

2. Walker 2b (loves Chicago wanted to stay, good hitter, glove is fine)

3. Lee 1b

4. Ramirez 3b

5. Patterson of

6. Barrett c

7. Pie/Murton of

8. Cedeno ss

9. Prior

 

A new manager comes to town and instantly announces that Aramis will hit 4th even though he isn't a lefty because that is just the smart thing to do for your offensive lineup. The only legitimate move the Cubs make in free agency is to land Damon because the importance of a lead off man is evident as it has crippled the Cubs the past two seasons. Walker stays in Chicago and signs a 2 year deal which Hendy hopes is enough time for Eric Patterson to develop his skills in the minors. Lee and Ramirez provide the power in the middle of the lineup. Patterson ideally refines his swing in the minors and comes back up to the majors with the ability to have some dicipline at the plate. Barrett is moved up in the order because the new manager recognizes that while he has the dicipline to hit 8th he is better suited in a spot where he can drive runners in because that is more valuable. Pie and Murton have a spring training showdown and the winner is declared the starting outfielder. Nomar leaves for his homestate California and Cedeno is given a chance to man the position everyday and Neifi is kept to play backup which is where a new manager would keep him. I know the outfield seems a little crazy. Patterson can easily hit 20 hr in a season if he can smooth out the problems he has had swinging at everything. Pie is said to be a leadoff type hitter with 20 HR potential. Along with Damon that could possibly give you 50 HR's in the outfield with amazing speed and defense. With Lee and Aramis you have huge power numbers at you corner infield along with Walker who has above average power. Cedeno can hit for a good average and has decent speed. Barrett is rejuvinated with confidence as he gets to move up in the order and catch more than 3 times through the rotation everytime. Power is NOT the Cubs problem so losing some HR's is ok. We would have WAY more speed with that lineup and better defense. We could also play more small ball and do things like hit and run. A new manager would be willing to do these things. We would possess the best defensive outfield in baseball and also have a lot of team speed which is something we lack right now.

[Exile on Waveland]

Long, long time lurker, first time poster. (In fact, this is my first-ever post at any site). I'd like to apologize in advance for any typos, as my right arm is broken (with impeccable timing, I might add, on my first day of law school). All right, formalities concluded...

 

This much is certain:

 

C -- Barrett

1B-- Lee

3B -- Ramirez

 

This is a near-certainty:

 

2b -- Walker (Not sure if his option is mutual or not; either way, he'll surely pick it up, as will the Cubs)

 

That leaves SS and the OF as uncertain:

 

SS -- Garciaparra. Unless another team gives him a ridiculous offer, the Cubs will resign him. Hopefully, Neifi will be gone, so, when Nomar's inevitable injury comes, Cedeno will get that time.

 

LF -- Lawton. Damon will stay in the AL East -- either resigning with the BoSox or moving to the Yankees. Cubs will probably choose either Lawton or Burnitz. I'm predicting that Lawton continues his solid play at leadoff, which the Cubs value highly, so he'll be kept.

 

CF -- Patterson. A couple of weeks ago, I figured Patterson had played his final game for the Cubs. However, he's getting called back up (we think) and Hendry still likes him (I think). Pie is clearly an option here. I've tried to think rationally and keep my personal opinions out of this, but I hope it's not Pie at CF on opening day. Everything I've read says he needs more time. Please, Hendry, give it to him.

 

RF -- This is the most disputable position. Murton, Burnitz and Giles are all possibilities. Process of elimination: Dusty will still be the manager, so no Murton; Burnitz's option is, like, $9 million; and 34-year-old Giles will command at least three years. I'm going to hypothesize none of these options and go with a trade. A plethora of valuable Cub prospects will be Rule V eligible, therefore, a trade is imminent, in order to avoid Sisco Redux. I want Dunn (ha, big surprise at this board). It'll be Kearns, though.

 

C -- Barrett

1b -- Lee

2b -- Walker

SS -- Garciaparra

3B -- Ramirez

LF -- Lawton

CF -- Patterson

RF -- Kearns

 

I'm sure I'll be totally wrong about everything, but, hey, so is our manager.

 

Sorry for the complete and utter lack of brevity. A (soon-to-be) lawyer pontificating, whodathunkit?

Edited August 4, 2005 by Exile on Waveland

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Welcome to the Forum! Great first post.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

For a player who doesn't have much to offer hitting-wise, he sure does make a lot of errors.

 

cedeno is widely regarded to have excellent to gold glove caliber defense at shorstop. it is, after all, the first time he's ever played in the big leagues. i would cut him some slack.

[Exile on Waveland]

Welcome to the Forum! Great first post.

 

Thanks. Glad to be here.

 

It's weird, I feel like I know all the posters here from reading so much -- even going back to the horrific, mind-numbing, breaking news! espn.com/cubs.com days -- but I'm a total stranger to everyone else. I'm going to try and remedy that.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

For a player who doesn't have much to offer hitting-wise, he sure does make a lot of errors.

 

cedeno is widely regarded to have excellent to gold glove caliber defense at shorstop. it is, after all, the first time he's ever played in the big leagues. i would cut him some slack.

 

Especially since he has a total of one error in the major leagues.

[ConstableRabbit]

For a player who doesn't have much to offer hitting-wise, he sure does make a lot of errors.

 

cedeno is widely regarded to have excellent to gold glove caliber defense at shorstop. it is, after all, the first time he's ever played in the big leagues. i would cut him some slack.

 

Especially since he has a total of one error in the major leagues.

 

Sorry, I should've clarified. I didnt mean error as in the scorecard's 'E'. I was referring to mental mistakes throwing and on the basepaths that don't get scored as "errors." This is just my opinion. Am I completely off the mark in saying that I don't think he's as fundamentally sound as Garciaparra?

[Evers2Tinker2Chance]

I love giving the young guys a chance but i really doubt that we get all of Cedeno, Murton, Pie, Hill, and to whom ever mentioned Greenburg, Pinto, and Aarsma all on the team at the same time.

 

Ill address the young guys one at a time:

 

I think realisticly we could expect to have Pie in AAA next year and be one of the first call ups.

 

Murton has a good shot at making the team outta ST and sticking as either a starter or 4th OF.

 

Greenberg could be a 5th OF/pinch runner, I think he does have a decent shot at making the team next year.

 

Cedano could be the back up SS/Utl IF, but im gonna say he starts the year in AAA too.

 

Hill has a good shot at staying the rotation the rest of the year and having a spot next year too. Its all on how he pitches now.

 

Aarsdma and Pinto I give a very slim chance of making the team next year, they may see the majors at some point (I think Aarsdma has a much better shot at this) but i dont see them next year

 

Personally I see the following returning: Nomar (cheap), WAlker, maybe Lawton depending on performance, Dempster

 

Id love to have Jesus but Im not gonna hold my breath.

 

Therefor my 2006 Cubs:

 

1st Lee

2nd WAlker

ss Nomar

3rd Aram

RF Lawton

CF Patterson

LF Murton/FA

c Barrett

 

Bench:

Perez (unless Hendry decides to take away one of Dusty' toys)

Murton/FA

Greenberg

Blanco

Utl If (possibly Macias)

 

Rotation:

Prior

Z

Maddux

Wood

Hill/Williams

 

Pen:

Dempster

Ohman

Weurtz

Novoa

Williams (if arm holds up)

Rusch

I could see us going out a getting a WAgner or addressing this through trade.

 

Mitre is gone in a trade along with Welly and a few others to clear 40 man space Willaims may also be used in a trade depending on Woods' future (I think its still in the rotation) and how they feel about Hill

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Therefor my 2006 Cubs:

 

1st Lee

2nd WAlker

ss Nomar

3rd Aram

RF Lawton

CF Patterson

LF Murton/FA

c Barrett

 

Bench:

Perez (unless Hendry decides to take away one of Dusty' toys)

Murton/FA

Greenberg

Blanco

Utl If (possibly Macias)

 

Rotation:

Prior

Z

Maddux

Wood

Hill/Williams

 

Pen:

Dempster

Ohman

Weurtz

Novoa

Williams (if arm holds up)

Rusch

I could see us going out a getting a WAgner or addressing this through trade.

 

So, basically what you're saying is you want to give this team another shot? :-s

[sporrer17]

This team, with a steady core over the past year, year and a half, has been painfully disappointing...and just not good. Our C, 1b, 2b, 3b, CF (until recently) were all the same as last year.

 

I think Lee, Ramirez, Barrett are locks. From there, I go younger.

 

C- Barrett

1b- Lee

2b- Theriot

SS- Nomar

3b- Ramirez

OF- Lawton

OF- Patterson/Pie (if Pie's ready, it's him)

OF- Murton

 

RF- Lawton

2b- Theriot

SS- Garciaparra

1b- Lee

3b- Ramirez

C- Barrett

CF- Patterson/Pie

LF- Murton

 

Rotation:

Prior, Zambrano, Williams, Hill, Maddux/Wood (Maddux isn't going anywhere, so if Wood does good in the pen it'll help solve that)

 

Pen:

Ohman, Scott Eyre, Dempster, Wood, Rusch, Wuertz/Novoa/Van Buren/Wellemeyer

 

Not sure about bench, too much thinking.

[Evers2Tinker2Chance]

So, basically what you're saying is you want to give this team another shot? :-s

 

No Im saying thats what I think WILL happen. What I WANT to happen is completly different.

 

I guess i should have made that more clear sorry.

[LoneStarCubFan]

There are only four guys on this team who should be untouchable: Lee, Ramirez, Zambrano and Prior.

 

Everybody else who isn't a free agent should be on the market for the right price in the offseason. My guess is Hendry looks for one free agent outfielder or trades for one, either a corner guy or a center fielder.

 

With that said, I think the roster will look something like this:

 

1B Lee

2B Hairston

SS Nomar

3B Ramirez

LF Lawton

CF Patterson or FA Signee

RF Murton or FA signee

C Barrett

 

SP Prior

SP Maddux

SP Zambrano

SP Hill

SP Williams/Kid from system TBA

 

Murton/Corner OF TBA if Murton starts

Perez

Blanco

Cedeno

LH Hitting Corner IF TBA

Greenberg

 

Dempster

Wood

Rusch

Williamson

Ohman

Novoa/Van Buren/Aardsma

 

Pie starts the season in Des Moines.