Deal for Soriano or Dunn close?

[AAApittsburgh]

I say do it if that's what Texas wants.

 

Mitre is not a reliever at all and is an AAAA player, Pinto has had some troubles in Triple A and is pitching pretty decent in double a, welly has some control problems when he was up for us and Walker, sometimes it seems, just doesn't want to be here with Dusty here.

 

I just feel that we are valuing our prospects way too much.

 

Just remember, the future can't help us win now.

I feel some are valuing Soriano way too much.

 

I WANT MENCH!!! :D

[wilk]

Bruce Levine on ESPN 1000. He didn't mention Texas giving up anything additionally, but I'd think we'd at least get a prospect as well... I agree that it's much better than losing Hill, but I don't want to give up Walker, and Soriano adds more power and speed but does nothing to improve the consistency and tendency to be hot/cold. Plus I thought this was interesting:

 

Walker has a .275 EqA,

Soriano has a .288 EqA.

 

Walker has a .297 batting average on balls in play,

Soriano has a .295.

 

Walker has a .313 BA with runners in scoring position,

Soriano has a .270.

 

Walker has a 24.3% line drive percentage,

Soriano has a 21.5%.

(It's estimated that line drives fall for a hit around 75% of the time...)

 

There's a number some of us like to use called GPA - or Gross Production Average. It's not exactly the be-all and end-all but it is a variation of OPS and adjusted for ballpark factor. Generally, the scale is similar to the scale for batting average.

 

Walker's GPA is .275.

Soriano's GPA is .257.

[Roast]

People still value Mitre?

 

Why not?

 

He is a solid starter. He just SUCKS in the pen.

[nilodnayr]

I wouldnt trade Walker for Soriano straight up.

 

I would. Walker's been one of my favorite players the past few years but I'll take the guy who can go 40/100 while scoring 120 runs in a heartbeat.

 

Runs and RBIs are largely dependent not only on your own production but on the production of those infront of and in back of you in the lineup. Yes, Soriano has the power, but thats not what this team needs. We need guys who can get on base. Soriano and hs 314 OBP (275 away) can stay in Texas, not to mention him costing 3-4 times as much as walker.

[CubsHawks25]

If I heard the BBTN guy right, just before they went off the air, he quoted Manny as saying "'I want to stay here. I want to win a World Series.' Take that FWIW."

 

If he did say that, it must have been said in the last 12-14 hours.

[Rusch33]

If I heard the BBTN guy right, just before they went off the air, he quoted Manny as saying "'I want to stay here. I want to win a World Series.' Take that FWIW."

 

If he did say that, it must have been said in the last 12-14 hours.

 

 

You indeed did.

[rickrolled]

If I heard the BBTN guy right, just before they went off the air, he quoted Manny as saying "'I want to stay here. I want to win a World Series.' Take that FWIW."

 

If he did say that, it must have been said in the last 12-14 hours.

 

So, a week ago he wants to be traded and now he wants to stay all of a sudden?

[cubsfolyfe1]

If I heard the BBTN guy right, just before they went off the air, he quoted Manny as saying "'I want to stay here. I want to win a World Series.' Take that FWIW."

 

If he did say that, it must have been said in the last 12-14 hours.

 

So, a week ago he wants to be traded and now he wants to stay all of a sudden?

 

That's typical Manny.

[ThePenguin11]

Supposedly the package set up for Soriano is Walker + Pinto + Mitre + Wellemeyer.

 

Yuck?

 

I wouldn't mind it seeing as Mitre and Wellemeyer don't really fit into our plans and much as i like Pinto - it means we keep Hill. That deal probably would include others from the Rangers side - Delucci or Mench would be nice - but one of their pen arms would be good too. I would expect that they'd definitely include prospects though.

What's the point of giving up three serviceable arms when Walker provides essentially the same production as Soriano? (At 1/3rd the cost, no less?) Needless to say I think this would be an insanely stupid trade on the part of the Cubs. (And my opinion of Hendry would fall to Baker-esque levels if it went down.)

 

No improvement to the team at the cost of depleting our most tradeable commodities and a severe hit in the budget? No way. I'll say it again; I'm only remotely interested in Soriano if he ends up in Left and Walker stays at second. Otherwise, Texas is more than free to keep him.

 

Why does everyone think that Walker produces the same as Soriano? That's just absurd. Let me know when Walker can hit 40 Homeruns knock in 100 runs, score 120 runs and steal 30 - 40 bases.

 

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

[USSoccer]

Supposedly the package set up for Soriano is Walker + Pinto + Mitre + Wellemeyer.

 

Yuck?

 

Oh my. :shock:

 

If we get Delucci or Mench back do you feel better about it?

[E.J.]

Brad Wilkerson isn't in the Nationals' lineup today. Maybe Hendry is trading him for Todd Hollandsworth, and that's why Holly isn't in our lineup today. :smokin:

[sonicdethmonkey0]

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all.

[nilodnayr]

Brad Wilkerson isn't in the Nationals' lineup today. Maybe Hendry is trading him for Todd Hollandsworth, and that's why Holly isn't in our lineup today. :smokin:

 

thats outlandish...wed have to throw in Neifi too :D actually considering bowden that could be serious

[Roast]

Bah.

 

Runs have absoloutley nothing to do with him. Well, a player does have to get on base, but after that, it is soley in the hands of the other players on the team.

 

RBI's is pretty similar. Outside of HR's you cant create an RBI all by yourself. Your team needs to help you.

 

walker has the elad in avg (not that I like that category much anyways)

 

Walker has a twenty point lead in OBP.

 

We know soriano has more power and speed.

 

And Soriano's OPS is horribly skewed by his SLG%.

 

So, in the categories in which the player himself creates (i.e., not dependent on the team) they are fairly similar, with soriano having more power.

 

Why way three times more for that?

[DougDascenzo]

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all.

 

It actually hurts as we lose walker's superior OBP... It also still leaves the black hole in left field.

 

 

Soriano would be an upgrade in homeruns, an upgrade which this team doesn't need. We need OBP. We need a left fielder. We need Adam Dunn.

[ThePenguin11]

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all.

 

Not a big improvement? 20-30 more runs and 20-30 more rbi's??? Do you think his extra 12-15 errors make up for, say, 25 extra runs every year?

[ThePenguin11]

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all.

 

It actually hurts as we lose walker's superior OBP... It also still leaves the black hole in left field.

 

 

Soriano would be an upgrade in homeruns, an upgrade which this team doesn't need. We need OBP. We need a left fielder. We need Adam Dunn.

 

Agreed on Dunn - I'll gladly take him over Soriano. But if we can't get Dunn then Soriano at second base batting 6th and Murton in left batting 2nd would be a great lineup in my opinion.

[USSoccer]

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all.

 

Not a big improvement? 20-30 more runs and 20-30 more rbi's??? Do you think his extra 12-15 errors make up for, say, 25 extra runs every year?

 

It depends on how many unearned runs are the result of said errors, not to mention increased workload on the pitching staff caused by giving away free outs.

 

That said, if you want to trade for Soriano, Hendry, knock yourself out, but try and include Remlinger in the deal, and don't give up 4 players for Soriano.

[ThePenguin11]

Bah.

 

Runs have absoloutley nothing to do with him. Well, a player does have to get on base, but after that, it is soley in the hands of the other players on the team.

 

RBI's is pretty similar. Outside of HR's you cant create an RBI all by yourself. Your team needs to help you.

 

walker has the elad in avg (not that I like that category much anyways)

 

Walker has a twenty point lead in OBP.

 

We know soriano has more power and speed.

 

And Soriano's OPS is horribly skewed by his SLG%.

 

So, in the categories in which the player himself creates (i.e., not dependent on the team) they are fairly similar, with soriano having more power.

 

Why way three times more for that?

 

He would be just as potent in our lineup as he would in the Rangers lineup - our lineup isn't the Pirates lets remember. He would have a ton of RBI opportunities with Murton, Lee, Ramirez and Burnitz in front of him.

[UMFan83]

Supposedly the package set up for Soriano is Walker + Pinto + Mitre + Wellemeyer.

 

Yuck?

 

I wouldn't mind it seeing as Mitre and Wellemeyer don't really fit into our plans and much as i like Pinto - it means we keep Hill. That deal probably would include others from the Rangers side - Delucci or Mench would be nice - but one of their pen arms would be good too. I would expect that they'd definitely include prospects though.

What's the point of giving up three serviceable arms when Walker provides essentially the same production as Soriano? (At 1/3rd the cost, no less?) Needless to say I think this would be an insanely stupid trade on the part of the Cubs. (And my opinion of Hendry would fall to Baker-esque levels if it went down.)

 

No improvement to the team at the cost of depleting our most tradeable commodities and a severe hit in the budget? No way. I'll say it again; I'm only remotely interested in Soriano if he ends up in Left and Walker stays at second. Otherwise, Texas is more than free to keep him.

 

Why does everyone think that Walker produces the same as Soriano? That's just absurd. Let me know when Walker can hit 40 Homeruns knock in 100 runs, score 120 runs and steal 30 - 40 bases.

 

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

Texas' park is also a much better park to hit in then Wrigley, so it inflates Sorianos numbers as well. Also, despite less range, Walker is clearly the better fielder. Also account for the fact that for the most part Walker has a positive presense in the clubhouse. It would be pointless to include Walker in a deal for Soriano

[Guest]

Why does everyone think that Walker produces the same as Soriano? That's just absurd. Let me know when Walker can hit 40 Homeruns knock in 100 runs, score 120 runs and steal 30 - 40 bases.

It's only absurd if you think that archaic stats such as Runs and RBI tell you much about a player's production. They don't. In trading Walker for Soriano you're essentially exchanging 30-40 points of OBP for 60-70 points of slugging. That's not an upgrade; at best it's a wash. (And that's ignoring the fact that Soriano's numbers for the last two years have been grossly inflated by playing in the best hitter's park in the AL. I'm sure that's been mentioned once or twice before, though.)

 

By most/all good measures of a player's production there's essentially no difference between Walker and Soriano. Soriano provides more pop, but Walker gets on base more often. Given the fact that Walker is better at what this lineup really needs (decent top-of-the-order hitters) I see no reason to swap him for Soriano.

 

Forget about the prospects/pitchers for a second. I agree with the above poster who said they wouldn't do a Walker for Soriano straight-up deal. Even if Soriano somehow managed to maintain his Arlington-inflated numbers he still wouldn't represent a significant upgrade over Todd. (Certainly not one that justified 3x the pricetag.)

 

I'd gladly give up some of our pitching arms if it made this a better team. The proposed trade doesn't, so I'm against it.

[wilk]

Shall I repeat:

 

Walker has a .275 EqA,

Soriano has a .288 EqA.

 

Walker has a .297 batting average on balls in play,

Soriano has a .295.

 

Walker has a .313 BA with runners in scoring position,

Soriano has a .270.

 

Walker has a 24.3% line drive percentage,

Soriano has a 21.5%.

(It's estimated that line drives fall for a hit around 75% of the time...)

 

There's a number some of us like to use called GPA - or Gross Production Average. It's not exactly the be-all and end-all but it is a variation of OPS and adjusted for ballpark factor. Generally, the scale is similar to the scale for batting average.

 

Walker's GPA is .275.

Soriano's GPA is .257.

 

Or should we ignore these because they're a bit more abstract? I don't get how anyone tries to use RUNS or RBIs in any discussion. Those are situationally coincidental. They are not talent numbers. You can't subtract Walker's runs from Soriano's and say we would have scored those runs. Would Manny be the RBI machine he is if he played for the Royals? Yeah, he leads in RBI, but Boston also has the highest OBP out of the #1 and 2 hitters in baseball. I'm sure this has NOTHING to do with it... Soriano adds more power, and more speed. He also does it less consistently and less situationally, gets on base less, has worse defense, whines more, is not the leader that Walker is, and it can be argued that all things considered he adds to the team where we don't need it, and subtracts from the team where we do need it. Does that justify paying him 3x what we pay Walker, and losing pieces that could goto a trade that WOULD improve the team?

[sonicdethmonkey0]

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all.

 

Not a big improvement? 20-30 more runs and 20-30 more rbi's??? Do you think his extra 12-15 errors make up for, say, 25 extra runs every year?

 

i don't care about his rbi's, soriano's always been in the middle of the order with a great lineup in both texas and new york. also, he's made 19-23 errors every year since 2001, and he's already got 15 this year. he's making $7.5 million, walker is making $2.5 million. soriano will cost top prospects, keeping walker will cost nothing. the cubs shouldn't be focusing on soriano, i'm sorry. you have to address what your team needs, and the cubs do not need soriano.

 

i would rather have matt lawton than soriano.

[nilodnayr]

 

Not a big improvement? 20-30 more runs and 20-30 more rbi's??? Do you think his extra 12-15 errors make up for, say, 25 extra runs every year?

 

Yeah, and Adam Dunn has 125 advantage in OPS but has nearly the same about of runs and rbis as soriano, are they equal players? Runs and RBIs are nearly worthless stats that are not indicative of a players production because they are extremely heavily dependent on the other players in the lineup. Just like wins are for a pitcher.

[BigbadB]

SEASONAL AVG.'s (per 162 games played)

 

Walker:

 

Runs: 85

HR: 14

RBI: 71

BA: .289

OBP: .347

SLG: .439

OPS: .786

SB: 10

 

Soriano:

 

Runs: 103

HR: 33

RBI: 94

BA: .283

OBP: .321

SLG: .504

OPS: .825

SB: 34

 

I think it is indesputable that Soriano is more productive than Walker in almost every offensive facet ot the game. The only edge Todd has is OBP - and we can see how much that has helped his production vs. Soriano.[/u]

 

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all.

 

Not a big improvement? 20-30 more runs and 20-30 more rbi's??? Do you think his extra 12-15 errors make up for, say, 25 extra runs every year?

 

i don't care about his rbi's, soriano's always been in the middle of the order with a great lineup in both texas and new york. also, he's made 19-23 errors every year since 2001, and he's already got 15 this year. he's making $7.5 million, walker is making $2.5 million. soriano will cost top prospects, keeping walker will cost nothing. the cubs shouldn't be focusing on soriano, i'm sorry. you have to address what your team needs, and the cubs do not need soriano.

 

i would rather have matt lawton than soriano.

 

I'll second that. We have thump in the line up with Lee, Ramirez, Burnitz and Nomar when he gets back. I would rather have another guy who can get on base. Especially if the thumper will cost too much. And if the rumors of Walker, Mitre, Welly and someone else is true, Texas can keep Soriano.