Deal for Soriano or Dunn close?

[sonicdethmonkey0]

I'm saying that the Cubs lineup will present just as many opportunities for Soriano as the Rangers'.

 

yes, opportunities to not get on base and play bad defense and make lots of money

[nilodnayr]

 

Our offense isn't that much inferior to the Rangers' offense.

 

I guess that would be true if...um, it werent wrong. The Rangers offense is SIGNIFICANTLY better than ours. They are #3 in MLB in runs, only 9 out of first and we are #16 only 1 out of 18th. They are scoring nearly a run more a game than us. So if you are using runs and rbis to evaluate a ranger player, take it within the context of their lineup.

[wilk]

Our offense isn't that much inferior to the Rangers' offense. AT NO POINT DID I SAY THAT JUST BECAUSE A GUY IS GOOD IN ONE LINEUP THAT HE'LL BE GOOD IN ANY OTHER. I'm saying that the Cubs lineup will present just as many opportunities for Soriano as the Rangers'.

 

So are you saying that if Soriano played a full season with the Cubs he'd hit 14 home runs with 70 RBI's and score only 70 Runs? Those numbers would still carry over if he joined the Cubs.

 

You said that the RBI and Runs would carry over. Texas has scored 557 runs, and the Cubs have scored 473 runs. Hence, you suggested that not only would he be "as good" but that he'd suddenly become more productive on the Cubs. The Cubs lineup does NOT offer just as many opportunities. That is a fact. In any event, deciding if Soriano is good for the lineup, or a good replacement for Walker by comparing their RBI and R numbers is ridiculous. If you want to use "classic stats" you use hits, average, total bases, etc. You don't use stats that are coincidental and tell you more about the team than the player.

[abuck1220]

cubs' top two prospects for soriano...who doesn't even play a position of need for the cubs? no thanks.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

Our offense isn't that much inferior to the Rangers' offense.

 

I guess that would be true if...um, it werent wrong. The Rangers offense is SIGNIFICANTLY better than ours. They are #3 in MLB in runs, only 9 out of first and we are #16 only 1 out of 18th. They are scoring nearly a run more a game than us. So if you are using runs and rbis to evaluate a ranger player, take it within the context of their lineup.

 

The Rangers have better offensive players in all likelihood(I haven't taken a detailed look at it), but their overall numbers like Runs are skewed in their favor because 1) They play with the DH and 2) They play in a much more hitter friendly park than we do.

[nilodnayr]

Here is the latest from Rumor Central on ESPN.com...

Jul 31 - ESPN.com's Jayson Stark reports the race for Alfonso Soriano appeared Sunday to be down to two teams -- the Twins and Cubs -- after the Mets backed off. But one baseball man who had spoken with the Texas brass estimated that the odds were down to one in 100 that Soriano would be moved at all.

 

The Cubs won't part with pitcher Rich Hill or their top prospect, center fielder Felix Pie. And Texas is asking for both.

 

The Twins, meanwhile, are resisting including smokeballer Francisco Liriano in any deal. And clubs that have been in touch with the Rangers said Sunday that if those players were untouchable, Soriano will still be in Texas at the deadline.

 

However, an official of another team said Texas had stepped up its efforts to add pitching, whether it trades Soriano or not. One mild rumor had the Rangers trading for Matt Lawton and then moving another position player (David Dellucci?) for a starting pitcher.

I bolded the parts I found interesting. I'm glad that neither Hill nor Pie would be given up. And, hmmm, Lawton and Delucci for Mitre and some other prospect? Or maybe just one of them for Mitre? Is Hendry bringing in the Rangers in a 3-way deal to land Lawton or Delucci or both?

 

Looks like that means that theyd be keeping lawton and moving some one else...I'd trade Mitre for mench!!!

[sonicdethmonkey0]

 

Our offense isn't that much inferior to the Rangers' offense.

 

I guess that would be true if...um, it werent wrong. The Rangers offense is SIGNIFICANTLY better than ours. They are #3 in MLB in runs, only 9 out of first and we are #16 only 1 out of 18th. They are scoring nearly a run more a game than us. So if you are using runs and rbis to evaluate a ranger player, take it within the context of their lineup.

 

The Rangers have better offensive players in all likelihood(I haven't taken a detailed look at it), but their overall numbers like Runs are skewed in their favor because 1) They play with the DH and 2) They play in a much more hitter friendly park than we do.

 

all these arguments about texas being a better offensive team than the cubs are silly when referenced to soriano's production, because soriano is performing under his career numbers in most offensive categories this year. it's not like soriano is having some monster year because he's on texas.

 

it doesn't matter what lineup he's in, he's still overrated.

[wilk]

The Rangers have better offensive players in all likelihood(I haven't taken a detailed look at it), but their overall numbers like Runs are skewed in their favor because 1) They play with the DH and 2) They play in a much more hitter friendly park than we do.

 

Skewed numbers is exactly the point.

[SpanishFortCub]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

[abuck1220]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

and you're basing that on....?

[CubsWin]

Here is the latest from Rumor Central on ESPN.com...

Jul 31 - ESPN.com's Jayson Stark reports the race for Alfonso Soriano appeared Sunday to be down to two teams -- the Twins and Cubs -- after the Mets backed off. But one baseball man who had spoken with the Texas brass estimated that the odds were down to one in 100 that Soriano would be moved at all.

 

The Cubs won't part with pitcher Rich Hill or their top prospect, center fielder Felix Pie. And Texas is asking for both.

 

The Twins, meanwhile, are resisting including smokeballer Francisco Liriano in any deal. And clubs that have been in touch with the Rangers said Sunday that if those players were untouchable, Soriano will still be in Texas at the deadline.

 

However, an official of another team said Texas had stepped up its efforts to add pitching, whether it trades Soriano or not. One mild rumor had the Rangers trading for Matt Lawton and then moving another position player (David Dellucci?) for a starting pitcher.

I bolded the parts I found interesting. I'm glad that neither Hill nor Pie would be given up. And, hmmm, Lawton and Delucci for Mitre and some other prospect? Or maybe just one of them for Mitre? Is Hendry bringing in the Rangers in a 3-way deal to land Lawton or Delucci or both?

 

Looks like that means that theyd be keeping lawton and moving some one else...I'd trade Mitre for mench!!!

You do think big, don't you. I highly doubt that the Rangers trade Mench, but maybe Delucci.

[ThePenguin11]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

As for Texas' lineup, yes, you're right that they're scoring more runs than us. Upon further review that's correct. But all that really matters is that Lee, Ramirez and Burnitz will be batting in front of him. The Rangers are deep all throughout the lineup. They also have a good DH to thank for that. I'm just going to have to say we should agree to disagree. I don't feel like debating this anymore. Let's just get Dunn so we can all be happy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

In 16 and 2/3 major league innings, he's K'd 18 guys. Looks like the K's are carrying over.

 

EDIT: For comparison, only 1 qualified starter in MLB(Peavy) has a better K/9 than that.

Edited July 31, 2005 by Transmogrified Tiger

[CubsWin]

Murton is not in the line-up today. I always thought the Cubs were partially showcasing him by bringing him up when they did. He certainly should have impressed some GMs by now. How upset would people be if Murton was not a Cub in the next couple of hours?

 

Lawton is a Cub and Murton is not. Is that a good trade?

 

I know no one would be upset if the Cubs gave up Murton in a package for Dunn...

[nilodnayr]

The Rangers have better offensive players in all likelihood(I haven't taken a detailed look at it), but their overall numbers like Runs are skewed in their favor because 1) They play with the DH and 2) They play in a much more hitter friendly park than we do.

 

Skewed numbers is exactly the point.

 

yeah thats exactly my point, if you are evaluating soriano by runs and rbis these things need to be taken into consideration. I just love Sorianos monster 236/274/404/678 outside of ameriquest line. Ohh and Penquin, he only has 21 RBIs compared to 48 at home.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

why? small sample size, but he's striking out 10 people per 9 innings so far. why wouldn't he be a strikeout pitcher in the major leagues?

 

also, the fact that you want dunn so much, seems strange based on your arguments on why we should have soriano.

[rickrolled]

Murton should only be traded if we're getting Dunn or Manny in return.

[CubsWin]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

What are you basing your opinions on today? The guy is striking out more than a batter per inning in the majors thus far.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Murton is not in the line-up today. I always thought the Cubs were partially showcasing him by bringing him up when they did. He certainly should have impressed some GMs by now. How upset would people be if Murton was not a Cub in the next couple of hours?

 

Lawton is a Cub and Murton is not. Is that a good trade?

 

I know no one would be upset if the Cubs gave up Murton in a package for Dunn...

 

I would be upset if Murton was used in a deal that got us a temporary fix. I'm not as high on Murton as some, but he's still valuable enough to not just throw in for a rental.

[ThePenguin11]

If Rich Hill is one of the Cubs' top two prospects, the Cubs are screwed, because he's average at best.

 

average enough to lead the minor leagues in strikeouts

 

Hill is not a strikeout pitcher in Major league Baseball.

 

In 16 and 2/3 major league innings, he's K'd 18 guys. Looks like the K's are carrying over.

 

His k's per inning we're greatly higher in the minors. If you went with the same ratio he should have truck out like 26 batters. I should rephrase it: Hill will not be as dominant a strikeout pitcher as he was in the minors. In say ninety innings in the minors you could expect 140 K's. In the majors he'll get you about 90-100 k's. They won't carry over at the same rate because major leaguers can hit his curveball and aren't offset by it when he throws his fastball.

Edited July 31, 2005 by ThePenguin11

[Outshined_One]

When it comes to the prospects, it seems like lately, a decent number of people are selling them short seemingly just for the sake of being a contrarian. I grant you, some of us hype up prospects. However, there is plenty of justification for that in some cases.

 

Hill is one of the top prospects in the Cubs' system for a good reason. He's not THE top pitching prospect in the organization (that honor belongs to Sean Marshall, imo), but he is the most advanced prospect with the highest ceiling. If he can develop that third pitch, the rest should be all good for him.

[ThePenguin11]

When it comes to the prospects, it seems like lately, a decent number of people are selling them short seemingly just for the sake of being a contrarian. I grant you, some of us hype up prospects. However, there is plenty of justification for that in some cases.

 

Hill is one of the top prospects in the Cubs' system for a good reason. He's not THE top pitching prospect in the organization (that honor belongs to Sean Marshall, imo), but he is the most advanced prospect with the highest ceiling. If he can develop that third pitch, the rest should be all good for him.

 

If he had a splitter or forkball - then I wouldn't trade him for very many guys. He would be sick provided that he could keep it down and fool hitters into thinking it was his fastball.

[ThePenguin11]

I just noticed that Hill was born in Boston. Interesting...

[SanJoseCubsFan]

When it comes to the prospects, it seems like lately, a decent number of people are selling them short seemingly just for the sake of being a contrarian. I grant you, some of us hype up prospects. However, there is plenty of justification for that in some cases.

 

Hill is one of the top prospects in the Cubs' system for a good reason. He's not THE top pitching prospect in the organization (that honor belongs to Sean Marshall, imo), but he is the most advanced prospect with the highest ceiling. If he can develop that third pitch, the rest should be all good for him.

 

 

Nothing is wrong with following prospects and having hope but the reality of the manner is most prospects turn out to just be that. I think Jim has held on too long to some prospects when he could have gotten more value for them. (Cruz, Mitre, etc). I agree no one want to see another Willis but we have had good luck in trading prospects for core players.(A-Ram, D-Lee)