Deal for Soriano or Dunn close?

[Roast]

Roast, that is because Manny never gets to the ball, and If he does it falls next to him--hence no error.

seen him play tons of times--it is the next best thing to the circus.

 

 

I think that is a pretty weak argument. I, admittedly, do not see him play quite so often as you. But from what I have seen, he does a pretty good job of getting to balls in the outfield. And, like rocket said when discussing dunn and his defense. Who really cares. How many balls go to left field every game, really think about it. I'd say between 5 and 6 on a regular day. Its not a huge risk like it would be if he was playing somewhere that gets a bunch of oppratunities, like a SS.

 

And moreover, if he can give me 92 RBI's by July 29 every year. Then hell, he can sit down in left field for all i care.

[Guest]

From the recently locked duplicate thread:

 

HoopsCubs[/url]"]I am concerned about putting Soriano in the OF - everytime it's been suggested to him, he pouts. Having the right attitude about doing something is sometimes 50% of the battle in any endeavor in life or baseball. He clearly wants to play 2B. Last time I looked we had a 2B.

I would trade Walker in this deal, if the Rangers gave us Dellucci as well.

I'm not sure I'd even do a straight-up Walker for Soriano+Dellucci deall. As I've posted previously, Walker and Soriano have similar overall prouction numbers with Walker's skillset fitting better with the team's current needs. While Dellucci is having a fine season, the fact that it's severly out of step with the rest of his career makes me pretty wary of him. I don't see any such trade making us much better as a baseball team, just costing us 3x the salary.

[JC]

What I'm trying to say is that the impact of his distraction is overrated. Not only did his team make it to the world series last year in spite of his distractions, he also turned out to be the best player in the series that was the biggest in the history of his team. Maybe they were able to handle it better than most and maybe his distractive tendencies are overblown. The bottom line is I honestly don't think his supposed distractive shortcomings come close to overshadowing his unbelievable play.

 

I don't disagree.

[Chocolate Milk]

What I'm trying to say is that the impact of his distraction is overrated. Not only did his team make it to the world series last year in spite of his distractions, he also turned out to be the best player in the series that was the biggest in the history of his team. Maybe they were able to handle it better than most and maybe his distractive tendencies are overblown. The bottom line is I honestly don't think his supposed distractive shortcomings come close to overshadowing his unbelievable play.

 

I don't disagree.

 

Awesome! Lets be friends forever!

 

8)

[Roast]

 

I agree, that World Series MVP is quite a distraction and not a team player.

 

:mamoru:

 

But, her point is not that he isnt good, but that he may be a distraction off the field. But, you gotta remember that they said some of these same thigns about nomar.

 

I don't remember Nomar being a distraction off the field. They said he was quiet and kept to himself in the locker room, but not much worse than that.

 

To compare Nomar and Manny off the field is like comparing Nomar and Neifi on the field.

 

The boston media said he was a distraction, is what i'm getting at. They said he was whining about wanting a trade and such. What i'm getting at is the boston media is BRUTAL and they've said these same things about players in the past, players who we know arent like that at all.

 

Am I saying manny doesnt do ANYTHING the media reports? no. I am saying i dont beleive his problems are as serious as the boston media makes it out to be.

[JC]

What I'm trying to say is that the impact of his distraction is overrated. Not only did his team make it to the world series last year in spite of his distractions, he also turned out to be the best player in the series that was the biggest in the history of his team. Maybe they were able to handle it better than most and maybe his distractive tendencies are overblown. The bottom line is I honestly don't think his supposed distractive shortcomings come close to overshadowing his unbelievable play.

 

I don't disagree.

 

Awesome! Lets be friends forever!

 

8)

 

No. You can't deal with the truth that Erstad is the dirtiest player to ever play the game. Ever.

[BRBHAWK]

Roast, that is because Manny never gets to the ball, and If he does it falls next to him--hence no error.

seen him play tons of times--it is the next best thing to the circus.

 

 

I think that is a pretty weak argument. I, admittedly, do not see him play quite so often as you. But from what I have seen, he does a pretty good job of getting to balls in the outfield. And, like rocket said when discussing dunn and his defense. Who really cares. How many balls go to left field every game, really think about it. I'd say between 5 and 6 on a regular day. Its not a huge risk like it would be if he was playing somewhere that gets a bunch of oppratunities, like a SS.

 

And moreover, if he can give me 92 RBI's by July 29 every year. Then hell, he can sit down in left field for all i care.

 

Sorry, let me clarify.

First off, I would take Manny at the right price (both in terms of trade and contract) in a heart beat.

 

I was just stating that your using errors to say that Manny is not a bad fielder is a little miss guided. His is really quite aweful.

 

That being said, as you stated--it may just be a play or two a week that another guys makes. But in return you get 1,000,000 or so RBI.

[Roast]

 

No. You can't deal with the truth that Erstad is the dirtiest player to ever play the game. Ever.

 

Ty Cobb hates you now.

[Roast]

 

That being said, as you stated--it may just be a play or two a week that another guys makes. But in return you get 1,000,000 or so RBI.

 

Exxxxxxactly.

 

I want manny.

[JC]

 

No. You can't deal with the truth that Erstad is the dirtiest player to ever play the game. Ever.

 

Ty Cobb hates you now.

 

Daisy pushers don't scare me.

[hawkeyecub]

The boston media said he was a distraction, is what i'm getting at. They said he was whining about wanting a trade and such. What i'm getting at is the boston media is BRUTAL and they've said these same things about players in the past, players who we know arent like that at all.

 

Am I saying manny doesnt do ANYTHING the media reports? no. I am saying i dont beleive his problems are as serious as the boston media makes it out to be.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the situations are very different.

I don't think anyone in the media said Nomar was a distraction until last year, they loved him. Much of it was spin control to justify trading away their golden boy.

 

Manny has been considered a distraction and has done things to warrant that for years now. Nomar never played the game lacksadaisically like Manny has either. The things JC listed are the big ones, but there have been plenty of others. The organization has been fed up with it a number of times and some teammates apparently were fed up with it after he refused to play the other night (even though they had 2 off days in 5 days).

 

Again I'm not saying I don't want Manny and those offensive numbers would have an enormous impact on our offense. I'm just saying that people can't just completely dismiss any flaws that he has.

[HoopsCubs]

Allow me to muddy the Soriano waters.

 

In the other thread, Hoops talked about Soriano possibly pouting if put in LF. What if the deal comes with an understanding that he would play SS next year, or even this year a little bit? He came up as a SS, did he not?

 

Just wanted to toss that out there...

 

Muddy away! What if the understanding is that he plays 2B next year? Is it necessarily a given that Walker will be back?

[Cubzfan64]

One thing to note - Manny appears to be quite unhappy in Boston (for whatever reasons). My guess is no matter where he would end up he will be happy for at least a year - a happy Manny is an even better player than the one you've seen in 2005.

 

Personally I think his defense in LF is slightly below average - he doesn't always hustle, doesn't always get a good jump on the ball and sometimes takes dumb chances. That said, he usually has a strong and accurate arm and he has the ability to make surprisingly good plays. In short, he's not a disaster, but he won't keep you from cringing when you see a ball hit to LF with the game on the line either.

 

The stories about Manny's antics (wanting days off, relatives dying requiring him to take a leave for a day or two, etc....) are not exclusively from Boston - on numerous occassions I've heard of former Cleveland players and/or Indian organization folks laugh when they hear of things he's doing in Boston and say "he hasn't changed at all." He'll do the same things if he comes to Chicago as well - my guess is though, the change of scenery alone would make him happy for 1-2 years and by then his contract is almost up and we can do whatever we want with him because we won't have that albatross around our necks.

 

I wonder if there's any way for Texas, Boston, Chicago and New York Mets to work a deal where we get Floyd, the Mets get Manny, Boston gets Soriano and Texas gets ?

[JGalt73]

Roast, that is because Manny never gets to the ball, and If he does it falls next to him--hence no error.

seen him play tons of times--it is the next best thing to the circus.

 

 

I think that is a pretty weak argument. I, admittedly, do not see him play quite so often as you. But from what I have seen, he does a pretty good job of getting to balls in the outfield. And, like rocket said when discussing dunn and his defense. Who really cares. How many balls go to left field every game, really think about it. I'd say between 5 and 6 on a regular day. Its not a huge risk like it would be if he was playing somewhere that gets a bunch of oppratunities, like a SS.

 

And moreover, if he can give me 92 RBI's by July 29 every year. Then hell, he can sit down in left field for all i care.

 

From Davenport Translation stats, anyone with better/different bad fielding stats feel free to add them...

 

Manny Runs Allowed in LF '03, '04, '05 (to date) = -8, -11, -6

Dunn -6, -17, -6

Hollandsworth in '05 = -3

 

Soriano at 2nd base '03, '04, '05 = -4, -10, -19

Walker = -21, -5, -3 (he played fewer games in '04)

 

On the offessive side of these equations, both Manny and Dunn more than make up their differences. Hollandsworth - no comment, just threw it in for fun.

 

Soriano this year is losing to Walker at 2nd in fielding and pacing him with the bat. Soriano has not played the OF in the majors by my looking.

 

For those lost runs

[Chocolate Milk]

What I'm trying to say is that the impact of his distraction is overrated. Not only did his team make it to the world series last year in spite of his distractions, he also turned out to be the best player in the series that was the biggest in the history of his team. Maybe they were able to handle it better than most and maybe his distractive tendencies are overblown. The bottom line is I honestly don't think his supposed distractive shortcomings come close to overshadowing his unbelievable play.

 

I don't disagree.

 

Awesome! Lets be friends forever!

 

8)

 

No. You can't deal with the truth that Erstad is the dirtiest player to ever play the game. Ever.

 

:cry:

[Roast]

 

Again I'm not saying I don't want Manny and those offensive numbers would have an enormous impact on our offense. I'm just saying that people can't just completely dismiss any flaws that he has.

 

I agree you cant overlook these things. But, you also cant overlook the fact that the boston media is HORRIBLE for overblowing things. Cuse said it best yesterday "the boston media has a worse case of ADD then any kid i've ever seen". So, while he's probably not the best "team player" in the whole world, I find it hard to beleive he's as bad as the media makes him out to be.

 

And even if he is a prick, i dont really care. Team chemistry is bunk, in my opinion. Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig didnt even talk to each other for FIVE years. They hated each other. And I still think they did OK.

 

My point is, whatever short comings manny may have on the defensive, or off the field side of him. They are GREATLY overshaddowed by the production he brings.

[Roast]

 

No. You can't deal with the truth that Erstad is the dirtiest player to ever play the game. Ever.

 

Ty Cobb hates you now.

 

Daisy pushers don't scare me.

 

 

I bet the daisy's above ty cobbs grave could even kick some serious butt.

[MattyJLCC]

Muddy away! What if the understanding is that he plays 2B next year? Is it necessarily a given that Walker will be back?

 

I think this will more than likely be the case if we do land Soriano. He's a 2B by trait, not an OF, and I would look for walker to be spun for a relief pitcher if the Soriano deal goes through.

 

Perhaps Jim feels that if we can load our infield with big bats as mentioned before (A-Ram, Nomah, Soriano and D-Lee) then we could get by with a guy like Murton in LF who are great hitters but not a lot of pop. Now if only Murty could get some regular PT that'd be great...

[Roast]

Muddy away! What if the understanding is that he plays 2B next year? Is it necessarily a given that Walker will be back?

 

I think this will more than likely be the case if we do land Soriano. He's a 2B by trait, not an OF, and I would look for walker to be spun for a relief pitcher if the Soriano deal goes through.

 

Perhaps Jim feels that if we can load our infield with big bats as mentioned before (A-Ram, Nomah, Soriano and D-Lee) then we could get by with a guy like Murton in LF who are great hitters but not a lot of pop. Now if only Murty could get some regular PT that'd be great...

 

I think I could handle a situation like that.

 

And I know this is a dead horse that has been beaten to a pulp, but, those home/away splits REALLY scare me. I mean, there is a 300 point differential in OPS.

[Weltazar]

Weltazar wrote:

All the papers are say that Walker would be involved, so this is the first time that I heard Wood was involved. I would prefer to hang on to Walker anyway, but according to ESPN radio the Cubs would put Soriano in LF and that would give us 2 second basebman in the OF. I'm not sure I like that idea from a defensive stand up! What do you guys think?

 

CubinNY wrote:

Was: ESPN radio Wood & Mitre strait up for Soriano close?

 

Anyone else here this?

 

I'm calling BS and saying this thread be locked in order to prevent another fiasco like last week's Dunn thread.

 

I smell a troll. And my smeller is pretty good.

 

I will retract everything if there is some independent confirmation.

 

 

I am repling to a post in the other thread that was locked.

 

My intention was not to start some sort of controversy here. Admittedly the radio station( a ESPN affliate) I got this from was out of St Louis, but I did not realize that would make a difference. As a writer for my own website, (http://confoundedconfines.blogspot.com/) my intention was to get confirmation myself on whether this info was correct or not. As a new poster I'm not sure what a troll is, but it doesn't sound very appealing. When I joined northsiders.com I did so because I want to join a knowledgeable group concerning the cubs, not be shunned by them so please forgive the misunderstanding.

Edited July 29, 2005 by Weltazar

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

No. You can't deal with the truth that Erstad is the dirtiest player to ever play the game. Ever.

 

Ty Cobb hates you now.

 

Daisy pushers don't scare me.

 

 

they will when you join them :D

[Wheelimus]

So...we trade for Soriano yet?

 

:lol:

 

I don't think Wood would be involved, because you can't trade someone on the DL can you? Anyway, no way I include Woody in any deal for Soriano. Trade for Manny where Boston eats the $ difference for next year plus gives us a break the next two after? Sure thing. But not for Soriano. I think he is aquirable for just prospects.

[JGalt73]

From ESPN chat...

 

Victor (Chicago): Jerry, could you please answer this Cub ?Are the Chicago Cubs about to get Alfonso Soriano and are they inquiring about bullpen help?

 

Jerry Crasnick: (12:17 PM ET ) Victor,

 

Jim Hendry isn't afraid to make big deadline moves, as he showed last year with Nomar. But the Rangers are asking for so much for Soriano, I don't see the Cubs paying the price. Hendry's not going to give up Felix Pie, Rich Hill and a cast of thousands to acquire a guy who'll make $10 million plus next year, then be eligible for free agency.

[Rusch33]

From ESPN chat...

 

Victor (Chicago): Jerry, could you please answer this Cub ?Are the Chicago Cubs about to get Alfonso Soriano and are they inquiring about bullpen help?

 

Jerry Crasnick: (12:17 PM ET ) Victor,

 

Jim Hendry isn't afraid to make big deadline moves, as he showed last year with Nomar. But the Rangers are asking for so much for Soriano, I don't see the Cubs paying the price. Hendry's not going to give up Felix Pie, Rich Hill and a cast of thousands to acquire a guy who'll make $10 million plus next year, then be eligible for free agency.

 

 

ESPN doesn't have a clue.

[TripJ]

From ESPN chat...

 

Victor (Chicago): Jerry, could you please answer this Cub ?Are the Chicago Cubs about to get Alfonso Soriano and are they inquiring about bullpen help?

 

Jerry Crasnick: (12:17 PM ET ) Victor,

 

Jim Hendry isn't afraid to make big deadline moves, as he showed last year with Nomar. But the Rangers are asking for so much for Soriano, I don't see the Cubs paying the price. Hendry's not going to give up Felix Pie, Rich Hill and a cast of thousands to acquire a guy who'll make $10 million plus next year, then be eligible for free agency.

 

 

ESPN doesn't have a clue.

 

[Overstating the Obvious]True enough. But based on what we've heard about the discussions JH had with Cincy, he's not likely to overpay with our best prospects. If Texas' asking price is as high as he indicates, I'd be shocked if he wound up in Chicago.[/Overstating the Obvious]

Edited July 29, 2005 by TripJ