"The Cubs traded the wrong firstbaseman"

[CubinNY]

Those words were reportedly uttered by Andre Dawson after the Cubs trade Rapheal Palmerio instead of Mark Grace.

 

Now, Palmerio is set to join Aaron, Mays, and Murry in the 3,000 hit 500 homer Club.

 

Meanwhile, Mark grace is set to join Thom (who spells Tom with an h anyway?) Brenneman in the TV Booth.

 

My question to you my Cub brothern (and sisteren) is was the Hawk correct?

[OleMissCub]

Those words were reportedly uttered by Andre Dawson after the Cubs trade Rapheal Palmerio instead of Mark Grace.

 

Now, Palmerio is set to join Aaron, Mays, and Murry in the 3,000 hit 500 homer Club.

 

Meanwhile, Mark grace is set to join Thom (who spells Tom with an h anyway?) Brenneman in the TV Booth.

 

My question to you my Cub brothern (and sisteren) is was the Hawk correct?

 

 

I love gracie as much as anyone....I'm a lefty hitter and thrower, played 1st base 12 years, high school, college and the whole time I wore no. 17. So no one can question that I didn't love gracie...but as to the question....HELL YES Hawk is correct.

[TruffleShuffle]

Yes, but not as right as some might think. Grace had a 119 OPS+; Palmeiro has a 132 OPS+. That's not as much of a difference as some would expect, but Grace actually had a higher career OBP, and Palmeiro's numbers were helped out some by playing in more hitter-friendly parks. Grace was a better fielder too. So while Palmeiro was certainly the better choice and should have been kept in retrospect, Grace was not as far behind him as one would think from looking at the gaudy power stats of Palmeiro.

[OleMissCub]

Gracie DID lead all hitters in the decade of the 90's in hits and doubles.

[EricG]

How many throwing errors did Grace prevent with Dunston at SS?

Would Sandberg want to play right next to Palmiero everyday?

[CoolHandLuke]

I wasnt very old at the time but Grace was my favorite cub growing up so I feel choosing either one to go with would have been a good call, especially considering the results of both players. I just don't like the return we got for Raffy (and Moyer) at all. Wild Thing was pretty huge in 89 but besides him it looked like we got a lot of crap.

[katway]

I wasnt very old at the time but Grace was my favorite cub growing up so I feel choosing either one to go with would have been a good call, especially considering the results of both players. I just don't like the return we got for Raffy (and Moyer) at all. Wild Thing was pretty huge in 89 but besides him it looked like we got a lot of crap.

 

I agree that both have had great careers. Grace was the better fielder. Raffy had more power in the long run. At the time, no one would have identified Raffy as a power hitter; so, given the choice, I think the Cubs made the best educated guess to stick with Grace. It would have been nice to keep them both. They tried Raffy in the outfield, but it became clear he could only play first and would be a defensive liability.

[Illini Iceman]

Those words were reportedly uttered by Andre Dawson after the Cubs trade Rapheal Palmerio instead of Mark Grace.

 

Now, Palmerio is set to join Aaron, Mays, and Murry in the 3,000 hit 500 homer Club.

 

Meanwhile, Mark grace is set to join Thom (who spells Tom with an h anyway?) Brenneman in the TV Booth.

 

My question to you my Cub brothern (and sisteren) is was the Hawk correct?

 

He might be correct, but the assumption that the Rangers would have accepted either one probably is not:

 

"Raffy was the guy we wanted," said broadcaster Tom Grieve, who was then the Rangers' general manager. "We wanted a guy who could hit the toughest pitchers and we thought Raffy was the guy. Nothing against Grace, but if they had asked us to do it for him, I don't know that we would have. We liked Raffy."

 

Clearly the Cubs gave up the better players in this trade but it did net them a one year wonder in Williams that helped them win the division so it is hard for me to say I would not want them to do it all over again.

[Cubzfan64]

It's very very hard to say - Raffy had the power we could have used for all those years, but Grace was pretty much mister consistency his entire career (fielding and hitting) day in and day out.

 

What we SHOULD have done is been the ones to put Raffy in the outfield - then we could have had them both.

[bhogg]

Raffy was always pegged as a power hitter. He hit for power at MSU and in the minors.

[sweetpeteman]

Those words were reportedly uttered by Andre Dawson after the Cubs trade Rapheal Palmerio instead of Mark Grace.

 

Now, Palmerio is set to join Aaron, Mays, and Murry in the 3,000 hit

500

homer Club.

 

Meanwhile, Mark grace is set to join Thom (who spells Tom with an h anyway?) Brenneman in the TV Booth.

 

My question to you my Cub brothern (and sisteren) is was the Hawk correct?

 

 

And he will actually end up with more than 600 homers, more than likely.

[CoolHandLuke]

It looks like Raffy didn't hit for as much power as gracey in the minors. At their AA stops Raffy hit 12 homers and 29 doubles in 509 at bats and Mark hit 17 homers and 29 doubles in 453 at bats. So I would guess that the Cubs thought Grace would hit for more power over the course of his career.

[biittner77]

It looks like Raffy didn't hit for as much power as gracey in the minors. At their AA stops Raffy hit 12 homers and 29 doubles in 509 at bats and Mark hit 17 homers and 29 doubles in 453 at bats. So I would guess that the Cubs thought Grace would hit for more power over the course of his career.

 

Yes, the Cubs expected Grace to develop more power which of course he never did.

 

The real blame for this trade falls on Jim Frey and his disasterous tenure as GM. If he hadn't run Lee Smith out of town he wouldn't have needed to trade Moyer and Palmeiro for a closer and some role players. Maybe he still winds up trading him anyway due to the Sandberg drama but he could have gotten a better deal.

[Bench Coach]

Mark Grace is one of my favorite human beings of all time, therefore I'm glad he stayed with the Cubs as long as he did.

 

Besides, wasn't Raffy traded because he slept with Sandberg's wife? Maybe thats not true, but thats what I heard from Rome.

[EricG]

Mark Grace is one of my favorite human beings of all time, therefore I'm glad he stayed with the Cubs as long as he did.

 

Besides, wasn't Raffy traded because he slept with Sandberg's wife? Maybe thats not true, but thats what I heard from Rome.

the rumor was that Sandberg's wife slept around some, rumored to have slept with Palmeiro and Dave Martinez (Martinez was traded to Montreal for Mitch Webster)

[illiniguy]

any year now grace will make the hall of fame. :roll:

[Illini Iceman]

any year now grace will make the hall of fame. :roll:

 

He has a better case than Ozzie Smith. If he had done a few back flips at 1B he may have given himself a chance. :P

[bhogg]

I'm a Grace fan, but he's not in Ozzie Smith's league.

 

Ozzie's nowhere near as great as the hype suggests, but he's still a no-brainer hall of famer.

 

 

It would have been nice if Grace had developed a power stroke, but it just never happened. I think having Gracie hit 3rd for the Cubs so many years really hurt the team. With he and Ryno you basically had two number 2 hitters hitting back to back.

[ZZ Thorn]

Raffy was always pegged as a power hitter. He hit for power at MSU and in the minors.

 

Raffy was a doubles hitter with the Cubs, and I recall him playing in LF for us. He went to the AL and started playing AL-style ball. He really was Grace's Latin clone when he was a Cub: go the other way, hit doubles right down the line.

[SouthSideRyan]

Grace didn't sleep with Cindy. Just everyone else.

 

If Palmiero, then no Sandberg IMHO.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Grace didn't sleep with Cindy. Just everyone else.

 

If Palmiero, then no Sandberg IMHO.

 

The never substantiated rumor, but one which over the years nearly everyone has come to accept as fact, is that Ryno went to management and told them flat out--take your pick, Palmeiro or me, but one of us won't be here next spring or else someone might get killed. It was very ugly. Grace won the job by default.

 

Even so, I do remember at the time, Palmeiro was the one that got moved to the outfield for a reason, the Cubs liked Grace better. Hard to get on their case here--both players were very very good for a long time. And Grace WAS the better all-around player.

[Holy Cow]

While we're on the subject, if gambling on baseball can keep you out of the HOF, shouldnt sleeping with a teammate's wife? In my book of taboos, it isn't even close. Obviously, gambling has a better chance of effecting play on the field, but come on!

[Soul]

Well, in the Cubs' defense, there was no way they could know that Raffy would start pumping steroids with Jose Canseco in Texas, while Gracie stayed clean as a whistle.

[goonys evil twin]

My question to you my Cub brothern (and sisteren) is was the Hawk correct?

 

Absolutely. No question.

 

It would have been nice to see them play Raffy in lefty and keep both though.

 

That's what happens when a desperate franchise uses short-term thinking. That '89 season was followed by a decade of incompetence.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

For those who think Ozzie is more deserving of the hall of fame:

 

I know they were different types of hitters, but a few back flips shouldn't get you into the hall of fame. Ozzie's numbers are really not that impressive. He was a great defensive player, but Gracie was no slouch in that department either. Ozzie's steals are nice, but that still doesn't make up for the career .262 average.

 

Grace - 2,445 hits - 173 HR - 1,146 RBI's - 70 SB - .303 avg - .383 obp - .442 slg

 

Smith - 2,460 hits - 28 HR - 793 RBI's - 580 SB - .262 avg - .337 obp - .328 slg

 

Keep in mind that Ozzie played 3 more years as well. My argument is that if Ozzie can get in, Grace belongs in as well.

 

 

I know Palmeiro turned out to be a great player, but I was quite happy with our consistent Mark Grace. You can't feel too bad about a guy who put up decent numbers every year, and did his job day in and day out.

 

And I've heard the Sandberg's wife rumor too. So someone had to go before they ended up killing each other. Who'd have guessed they'd both be hall of famers though.