Everyone who says Pujols should be the MVP..

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I look at the MVP as it says, most valuable player...in other words, which player has the most value to his team. I think the Cardinals, even without Pujols, would be playing very good baseball and likely still playing for a playoff spot. On the other hand, without Lee, the Cubs are likely fighting the Reds for the division cellar. That in my mind makes Lee more valuable than Pujols.

[wolf stansson]

I think the Cardinals, even without Pujols, would be playing very good baseball and likely still playing for a playoff spot.

I don't know. With all the DL time, Edmonds would be the only legit threat in the entire lineup. I still think that barring anything dramatic, Pujols will get it by name recognition and reputation alone. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him win a GG by the same merit. Same reason Clemens will get the CY as long as he wins 16 or more.

[PujolsPower]

I look at the MVP as it says, most valuable player...in other words, which player has the most value to his team. I think the Cardinals, even without Pujols, would be playing very good baseball and likely still playing for a playoff spot. On the other hand, without Lee, the Cubs are likely fighting the Reds for the division cellar. That in my mind makes Lee more valuable than Pujols.

 

I haven't looked up win shares or anything like that, but I a think that Pujols has probably been close to as valuable to the Cards offensively as Lee has been to the Cubs. When you factor in that the Cubs are currently 5 games out of the wild card race and trailing 4 teams, I think Lee's value to his teams loses a little of its signifigance. Is being 5 games out that much better than being 11 games out as Cincinatti is. Right now, of course you are still closer to being in contention, but if the season ends and you are still 5 games out of the WC and trail 4 teams, then I think that Lee fall short in the MVP voting.

[gus_dog]

Just being objective. Part of the MVP award is based on how your team does. That gives the advantage to Pujols. Lee's advantage in some of the statistical categories isn't enough to make up for the team's record. Lee is in line to win the Silver Slugger.

 

Ha, ha, ha,...that's kind of funny. Not picking on you, but when you have a handle of 'PujolsPower', saying you are objective does not quite mean too much.

 

I can certainly relate to your partisanship, no problem there. You undoubtedly want Pujols to win any accolade he can get, so really, it doesn't mean much when you write that Pujols is your pick to win MVP.

 

I think that if Lee continues his recent tail-off, Pujols should win. However, if Lee picks it back up again and gives his numbers a boost back up near where they were in mid-July, he is the obvious choice.

 

Now, as far as predicting what the voters will do, I will pick Pujols because his numbers are close enough, his team will make the playoffs, yada, yada, yada....

 

The Gold Glove awards are meaningless, IMO, because it usually is a 50/50 shot as to whether or not the best defencive player ever gets the award.

 

My prediction: Pujols wins both MVP and GG.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Ha, ha, ha,...that's kind of funny. Not picking on you, but when you have a handle of 'PujolsPower', saying you are objective does not quite mean too much.

 

That's really not a fair distinction to make.

[gus_dog]

Ha, ha, ha,...that's kind of funny. Not picking on you, but when you have a handle of 'PujolsPower', saying you are objective does not quite mean too much.

 

That's really not a fair distinction to make.

 

Why not? I think it is VERY difficult (sometimes impossible) for any fan (including myself) to be objective when dealing with a subject that directly involves one of their favourite players, on (or) their favourite team.

 

I'm not slamming PujolsPower, simply making a comment about human nature, in general, and how it is manifested in sports fans.

[wolf stansson]

I think it is VERY difficult (sometimes impossible) for any fan (including myself) to be objective when dealing with a subject that directly involves one of their favourite players

See my Cabrera-Pujols thread in Rants. I am a very objective, rational person, but when it comes to Albert I cannot budge.

[windows]

I'm slightly biased on this issue as I'm somewhat of a Cardinal fan. I'm more of a Yankee fan, but I'd favor the Cardinals over the Cubs.

 

That being said, it's hard to think that offense, or any hitter in the Cardinals offense, has carried the Cardinals. The biggest thing going for the Cardinals is having two top of the rotation starters, one of which is just starting to get in a groove.

 

The Cardinals are 18-5 when Mulder starts. When Carpenter starts, the Cardinals are 18-4. Compare that with the rest of the rotation. When Morris starts, the record is 13-7. When Suppan starts, the team is 10-12. And when Marquis starts, the Cardinals are 10-13. The Cardinals are 27 games over .500 when Mulder or Carpenter starts compared with exactly one game over when the other three starters start. And when you look at the numbers, Mulder has been more lucky than good. Carpenter, on the other hand, has just been outstanding.

 

What's my point? When you see a contrast as sharp as the one I just presented, it's a very good case that Chris Carpenter (and not Albert Pujols) is the Cardinals MVP. And if a player isn't the MVP of his own team, how can he be the league MVP?

 

That's my case against Pujols.

[treebird]

Lee and Pujols are now even in win shares, each having 28. Pujols is slightly ahead of Lee in batting win shares, but Lee makes up the difference by being slightly ahead of Pujols in fielding win shares.

 

As far as Lee being the man in the lead for mvp, I'd say that the end is near.

[PujolsPower]

I'm slightly biased on this issue as I'm somewhat of a Cardinal fan. I'm more of a Yankee fan, but I'd favor the Cardinals over the Cubs.

 

That being said, it's hard to think that offense, or any hitter in the Cardinals offense, has carried the Cardinals. The biggest thing going for the Cardinals is having two top of the rotation starters, one of which is just starting to get in a groove.

 

The Cardinals are 18-5 when Mulder starts. When Carpenter starts, the Cardinals are 18-4. Compare that with the rest of the rotation. When Morris starts, the record is 13-7. When Suppan starts, the team is 10-12. And when Marquis starts, the Cardinals are 10-13. The Cardinals are 27 games over .500 when Mulder or Carpenter starts compared with exactly one game over when the other three starters start. And when you look at the numbers, Mulder has been more lucky than good. Carpenter, on the other hand, has just been outstanding.

 

What's my point? When you see a contrast as sharp as the one I just presented, it's a very good case that Chris Carpenter (and not Albert Pujols) is the Cardinals MVP. And if a player isn't the MVP of his own team, how can he be the league MVP?

 

That's my case against Pujols.

 

Pujols contributes on a daily basis, versus Carpenter contributing every 5 days. Team performance is obviously based on a combination of pitching and hitting and defense. The Cardinals lead the NL in ERA but also lead in runs scored. Carpenter is the clear leader of the pitching staff, while Pujols is the clear leader of the offense. You can probably pick the top 2 pitchers from a number of good teams and see similar winning patterns compared to the 3-5 starters. I think it would be very hard to argue that Carpenter is more valuable than Pujols. Pujols is the only player having an elite offensive season, while the entire pitching staff is doing well.

[ManCrushOnNomar]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

[Strife]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

And what exactly do you base this opinion on? Watching him play? Well I'd venture to say that there are a lot of Cardinal fans who have seen him play more than you. Stats? The stats say he is slightly inferior to DLee as a fielder. So are you prepared to say that DLee is also only slightly better than average "on his best day"? I think not. Here's the best idea: don't make blanket statements about a player's fielding ability (especially when you don't watch them everyday) because fielding statistics are horrible, and so you really have no way of knowing how good in the field Pujols is.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

And what exactly do you base this opinion on? Watching him play? Well I'd venture to say that there are a lot of Cardinal fans who have seen him play more than you. Stats? The stats say he is slightly inferior to DLee as a fielder. So are you prepared to say that DLee is also only slightly better than average "on his best day"? I think not. Here's the best idea: don't make blanket statements about a player's fielding ability (especially when you don't watch them everyday) because fielding statistics are horrible, and so you really have no way of knowing how good in the field Pujols is.

 

I still think Pujols is a slightly above average fielder and doesn't deserve a gold glove. I'm not knocking him as a hitter. He's one of the best I've ever seen, and he's not a poor fielder, just not gold glove caliber.

 

Derrek Lee and Todd Helto are two that are much better than he is in the field.

[treebird]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

And what exactly do you base this opinion on? Watching him play? Well I'd venture to say that there are a lot of Cardinal fans who have seen him play more than you. Stats? The stats say he is slightly inferior to DLee as a fielder. So are you prepared to say that DLee is also only slightly better than average "on his best day"? I think not. Here's the best idea: don't make blanket statements about a player's fielding ability (especially when you don't watch them everyday) because fielding statistics are horrible, and so you really have no way of knowing how good in the field Pujols is.

 

I still think Pujols is a slightly above average fielder and doesn't deserve a gold glove. I'm not knocking him as a hitter. He's one of the best I've ever seen, and he's not a poor fielder, just not gold glove caliber.

 

Derrek Lee and Todd Helto are two that are much better than he is in the field.

 

Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

And what exactly do you base this opinion on? Watching him play? Well I'd venture to say that there are a lot of Cardinal fans who have seen him play more than you. Stats? The stats say he is slightly inferior to DLee as a fielder. So are you prepared to say that DLee is also only slightly better than average "on his best day"? I think not. Here's the best idea: don't make blanket statements about a player's fielding ability (especially when you don't watch them everyday) because fielding statistics are horrible, and so you really have no way of knowing how good in the field Pujols is.

 

I still think Pujols is a slightly above average fielder and doesn't deserve a gold glove. I'm not knocking him as a hitter. He's one of the best I've ever seen, and he's not a poor fielder, just not gold glove caliber.

 

Derrek Lee and Todd Helto are two that are much better than he is in the field.

 

Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols

 

i'll have to agree with that, When he was younger, J.T. Snow was also a fairly slick fielding firstbaseman, but I don't think he's as good as he was a few years back.

[wolf stansson]

Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols

Doug Mientkiewicz > Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols.

 

I do agree though that Pujols is underrated as a first basemen by the guy who said he is slightly above average. He's good man. He's not as good as Lee and Helton because he's not as quick, but he is just as good at making the plays he can get to. He also is fantastic making the stretch and scoop. He's definitely getting better.

[ltb]

Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols

 

this is what i would have said.

[ltb]

Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols

Doug Mientkiewicz > Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols.

 

I do agree though that Pujols is underrated as a first basemen by the guy who said he is slightly above average. He's good man. He's not as good as Lee and Helton because he's not as quick, but he is just as good at making the plays he can get to. He also is fantastic making the stretch and scoop. He's definitely getting better.

 

mientkiewicz is not nearly as good as helton or lee.

[treebird]

Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols

Doug Mientkiewicz > Todd Helton>Derrek Lee>>pretty much the rest of the NL first basemen, including Pujols.

 

no way is minky better than helton or lee. just because the red sox thought he was good enough to put out in the field at the end of their games last year doesn't mean he's the best in the league. hugely overrated.

[ManCrushOnNomar]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

And what exactly do you base this opinion on? Watching him play? Well I'd venture to say that there are a lot of Cardinal fans who have seen him play more than you. Stats? The stats say he is slightly inferior to DLee as a fielder. So are you prepared to say that DLee is also only slightly better than average "on his best day"? I think not. Here's the best idea: don't make blanket statements about a player's fielding ability (especially when you don't watch them everyday) because fielding statistics are horrible, and so you really have no way of knowing how good in the field Pujols is.

My fiancee is as diehard about the Cardinals as I am about the Cubs. Living in central Illinois I get both Cards and Cubs games every day. Don't tell me I don't watch the Cards play. I actually might have seen more Cards games than Cubs games this year.

 

I wouldn't make a statement without a way to back it up, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

[indifferent]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

And what exactly do you base this opinion on? Watching him play? Well I'd venture to say that there are a lot of Cardinal fans who have seen him play more than you. Stats? The stats say he is slightly inferior to DLee as a fielder. So are you prepared to say that DLee is also only slightly better than average "on his best day"? I think not. Here's the best idea: don't make blanket statements about a player's fielding ability (especially when you don't watch them everyday) because fielding statistics are horrible, and so you really have no way of knowing how good in the field Pujols is.

My fiancee is as diehard about the Cardinals as I am about the Cubs. Living in central Illinois I get both Cards and Cubs games every day. Don't tell me I don't watch the Cards play. I actually might have seen more Cards games than Cubs games this year.

 

I wouldn't make a statement without a way to back it up, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

 

I still don't think you watch every game.

[treebird]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

And what exactly do you base this opinion on? Watching him play? Well I'd venture to say that there are a lot of Cardinal fans who have seen him play more than you. Stats? The stats say he is slightly inferior to DLee as a fielder. So are you prepared to say that DLee is also only slightly better than average "on his best day"? I think not. Here's the best idea: don't make blanket statements about a player's fielding ability (especially when you don't watch them everyday) because fielding statistics are horrible, and so you really have no way of knowing how good in the field Pujols is.

My fiancee is as diehard about the Cardinals as I am about the Cubs. Living in central Illinois I get both Cards and Cubs games every day. Don't tell me I don't watch the Cards play. I actually might have seen more Cards games than Cubs games this year.

 

I wouldn't make a statement without a way to back it up, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

 

I still don't think you watch every game.

 

im pretty sure it's not okay for you to tell people their opinion is invalid on the basis of whether or not they've watched every cardinal game this year

[wolf stansson]

Shoot. That means all my arguments are invalid because I've only gotten to see like 10 games.

[Catman61]

If Pujols wins the GG then there is officially something wrong with the award.

 

He is a slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year.

 

I wouldn't make a statement without a way to back it up, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

 

How about this for backup.

First base: Todd Helton. Helton, like Maddux, was a repeat winner (albeit only two times in a row, not 13) who got knocked off in 2003 but has been restored in 2004. We can't disagree, since Helton has the best BP marks in the league for the fourth time in five years, missing the fifth year by two runs. He's got a 24/18, in part due to a league-leading 144 assists. Watch out for Lyle Overbay (20/14) and, as he showed in the playoffs, Albert Pujols (17/11) to contend for future Gloves, along with last year's winner Derrek Lee (a solid 14/8 ).

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3603

 

Why would they say that about a "slightly above average fielder on his best day of the year?"

[PujolsPower]

RBI's are a team dependent stat, as are runs scored. Lets take a look at independent stats:

 

AVG:

 

Lee .378

Pujols .337

 

OBP:

 

Lee .452

Pujols .423

 

SLG:

 

Lee .733

Pujols .594

 

OPS:

 

Lee 1.186

Pujols 1.017

 

RC:

 

Lee 95.1

Pujols 80.7

 

RC27:

 

Lee 12.35

Pujols 9.35

 

 

ISOP:

 

Lee .356

Pujols .257

 

That's not cherry picking, either. Not only has Derrek been better in almost every individual statistical category, but it's not even close. In order for Pujols to even approach Lee in any of these categories, Derrek would have to fall flat on his face. Even if Derrek reverted to his career norms for the entire second half, the chances would be remote at best that Albert would catch him. Especially since Derrek has been a better second half player over the course of his career.

 

Now in 2006 Albert will probably be better, but there is no question who has been better this year.

 

Any chance we can get those comparisons updated? I thinkt that the MVP race is now between Pujols, Andruw Jones and Derrek Lee, although I think the Cubs will need to start winning more for Lee to get serious consideration in the voting.