Everyone who says Pujols should be the MVP..

[jaydee]

over Lee...says so because the cardinals are the best team in the NL. Well, if the MVP has to come from the best team, who is the MVP of the AL? Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, or Podsednik? I say Podsednik.

[Catman61]

Last time I looked there were still some 75 or so games to be played or more than 45% of the season.

[reggiemiller rules]

the white sox arugment isnt even close to being the same thing, because none of them are close to having the top number. Pujols is in the top 5 in average, home runs, rbis, and runs so its a little different. I think right now that Lee is the MVP but if pujols has the lead in RBIS and runs at the end of the year and closes the HR's and Avearage I could see him winning it because the cards will make the playoffs. It was the same thing as in 98 where Sosa got it over Mcgwire even though he didnt hit as many HR's or rbis but the cubs made the playoffs and the cards were awful.

[imb]

PUNCTUATION

[jaydee]

the white sox arugment isnt even close to being the same thing, because none of them are close to having the top number. Pujols is in the top 5 in average, home runs, rbis, and runs so its a little different. I think right now that Lee is the MVP but if pujols has the lead in RBIS and runs at the end of the year and closes the HR's and Avearage I could see him winning it because the cards will make the playoffs. It was the same thing as in 98 where Sosa got it over Mcgwire even though he didnt hit as many HR's or rbis but the cubs made the playoffs and the cards were awful.

 

if i remember correctly sosa was better in several categories than mcgwire, including RBIs. Also, Sosa was a big part of why the cubs did so well. IF he wasn't on the team, no way they would of been in the playoffs. That is not the case with Pujols and St. Louis IMO

[indifferent]

So you're saying the Cardinals could maintain a winning record without Pujols? I'd agree with you.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

So you're saying the Cardinals could maintain a winning record without Pujols? I'd agree with you.

 

Exactly. It's not like Pujols is propelling the Cardinals to contention, although he certainly has a hand in it. On the other hand, the Cubs are probably 5 games worse without Lee's production. He's been more valuable to his team in addition to outproducing Pujols across the board.

[wondernorm]

if i remember correctly sosa was better in several categories than mcgwire, including RBIs. Also, Sosa was a big part of why the cubs did so well. IF he wasn't on the team, no way they would of been in the playoffs. That is not the case with Pujols and St. Louis IMO

 

McGwire's OPS was over 200 points higher than Sosa's. The only categories he was better in are team-dependent, like runs scored and rbi. The only reason he won the MVP was because the Cubs made the playoffs, as is likely to be the case this year with Pujols, particularly if he closes the gap or passes Lee in a category or two.

[dalgreen]

I'm a Cub fan but I don't understand the vehement disagreement with Pujols. It's not like people are saying Jose Guillen or Brian Giles should get it. There's still way too much time left in the season to get worked up over it and there's no such tangible thing as a first half MVP award. Pujols is having an outstanding year, it's just that Lee is having a monster year. I'd vote for Lee, but don't have a problem with Pujols winning it. Remember, we can still make the playoffs rendering the "he was on a playoff team" argument moot.

[The Voice of Reason]

Imagine how much better D. Lee's numbers would be if he it behind all-stars like Eckstein and Edmonds instead of hitting behind low OBP players like Patterson, Perez, etc.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

Edmonds normally hits in the 5 or 6 hole.

[ManEatingTarp]

If the Cubs make the playoffs, or are in the hunt to the end, Lee wins the MVP. No question IMO. If the Cubs fall out of the race by the beginging of Sept and Lee cools down, Albert should win it. Right now I think it's a 50/50 to go either way. Much like the All-Star thing, I wouldn't be upset if either one was the MVP. (at least it won't be freaking Barry Bonds!)

[Mark_R]

If the Cubs make the playoffs, or are in the hunt to the end, Lee wins the MVP. No question IMO. If the Cubs fall out of the race by the beginging of Sept and Lee cools down, Albert should win it. Right now I think it's a 50/50 to go either way. Much like the All-Star thing, I wouldn't be upset if either one was the MVP. (at least it won't be freaking Barry Bonds!)

 

Bonds has deserved it every year though, imo.

[ManEatingTarp]

If the Cubs make the playoffs, or are in the hunt to the end, Lee wins the MVP. No question IMO. If the Cubs fall out of the race by the beginging of Sept and Lee cools down, Albert should win it. Right now I think it's a 50/50 to go either way. Much like the All-Star thing, I wouldn't be upset if either one was the MVP. (at least it won't be freaking Barry Bonds!)

 

Bonds has deserved it every year though, imo.

 

 

I know. I just don't like the way he goes about his off the field business.

Lee and Pujols are both players I can cheer for.

[gus_dog]

So you're saying the Cardinals could maintain a winning record without Pujols? I'd agree with you.

 

Absolutely.....unfortunately.

[1wizard]

Edmonds normally hits in the 5 or 6 hole.

 

Actually Edmonds is batting in the second hole and has been for about a month.

 

 

Mark_R wrote:

ChicagoCardFan wrote:

If the Cubs make the playoffs, or are in the hunt to the end, Lee wins the MVP. No question IMO. If the Cubs fall out of the race by the beginging of Sept and Lee cools down, Albert should win it. Right now I think it's a 50/50 to go either way. Much like the All-Star thing, I wouldn't be upset if either one was the MVP. (at least it won't be freaking Barry Bonds!)

 

 

Bonds has deserved it every year though, imo.

 

I guess you are right, but I would think that those numbers are greatly inflated by roids. Every stat Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire are questionable in my mind.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

Edmonds normally hits in the 5 or 6 hole.

 

Actually Edmonds is batting in the second hole and has been for about a month.

That's because Walker is a gimp.

[Catman61]

Edmonds normally hits in the 5 or 6 hole.

 

Actually Edmonds is batting in the second hole and has been for about a month.

 

17 games 57 AB batting 2nd

37 games 127 AB batting 4th

14 games 50 AB batting 5th

5 games 10 AB batting 6th

[genghiskhan]

The situations in 1998 and 2005 are pretty much exactly equivalent. If it was OK for Sosa to win the MVP over McGwire in 1998 b/c the Cubs made the playoffs (finishing six games ahead of STL, IIRC) and the Cardinals didn't, it'll be OK this year for Pujols to win when the Cards win 100 games and the Cubs miss the playoffs.

 

And that's assuming Derrek Lee finishes the season with numbers approximating what he has at the break. Pujols is pretty much hitting around his career averages, while Lee is hitting well over his.

[gus_dog]

I disagree - this situation is nothing like 1998.

 

McGwire was not nearly the complete players that Pujols, Lee, or even Sosa was (in 1998).

 

McGwire had a great year hitting the long ball, and IIRC, he had more walks than singles. It was pretty much either he would hit a dinger, or walk.

 

Sosa's year was complete, and probably his best overall.

[The Voice of Reason]

Edmonds normally hits in the 5 or 6 hole.

 

Actually Edmonds is batting in the second hole and has been for about a month.

 

17 games 57 AB batting 2nd

37 games 127 AB batting 4th

14 games 50 AB batting 5th

5 games 10 AB batting 6th

 

 

Let me try this another way, if Pujols was hitting behind Patterson and Perez all year (like Lee has) he would IMO have less RBI than he has now hitting behind Eckstein, Edmonds (and others who have hit second) which makes Lee's accomplishments all the more impressive.

 

Also, Lee's home run average would be higher if he hadn't played all those years in Florida (just ask Carlos Del Gado).

[TB_11]

I disagree - this situation is nothing like 1998.

 

McGwire was not nearly the complete players that Pujols, Lee, or even Sosa was (in 1998).

 

McGwire had a great year hitting the long ball, and IIRC, he had more walks than singles. It was pretty much either he would hit a dinger, or walk.

 

Sosa's year was complete, and probably his best overall.

 

2001 was Sosa's best year. Period.

 

McGwire was the better hitter in 1998 - his OBP and SLG were each 80 points higher than Sammy's that year. Sammy's completeness as a player often rested on his speed - that year he was successful on 67% of his SB attempts (18 of 27). The debate over who was the MVP is a fair one, but the debate over who was the better player should start and end with McGwire.

[gus_dog]

The debate over who was the MVP is a fair one, but the debate over who was the better player should start and end with McGwire.

 

That would be your opinion.

[TruffleShuffle]

Edmonds normally hits in the 5 or 6 hole.

 

Actually Edmonds is batting in the second hole and has been for about a month.

 

17 games 57 AB batting 2nd

37 games 127 AB batting 4th

14 games 50 AB batting 5th

5 games 10 AB batting 6th

 

 

Let me try this another way, if Pujols was hitting behind Patterson and Perez all year (like Lee has) he would IMO have less RBI than he has now hitting behind Eckstein, Edmonds (and others who have hit second) which makes Lee's accomplishments all the more impressive.

 

Also, Lee's home run average would be higher if he hadn't played all those years in Florida (just ask Carlos Del Gado).

 

Or, to put in terms of the actual stats:

 

Cards #1 hitters OBP: .370

Cards #2 hitters OBP: .337

 

 

Cubs #1 hitters OBP: .317

Cubs #2 hitters OBP: .295

 

 

Eckstein's numbers are fluky this year, but still, the Cubs OBPs are atrocious in the top two spots in the batting order. What's worse:

 

OBP as leadoff hitter

Hairston .389

Patterson .268

N. Perez .253

 

 

But of course, Hairston has had only about 40% of the Cubs' leadoff plate appearances. This suggests that Lee would easily have more RBIs if the Cubs had a competent manager.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I disagree - this situation is nothing like 1998.

 

McGwire was not nearly the complete players that Pujols, Lee, or even Sosa was (in 1998).

 

McGwire had a great year hitting the long ball, and IIRC, he had more walks than singles. It was pretty much either he would hit a dinger, or walk.

 

Sosa's year was complete, and probably his best overall.

 

2001 was Sosa's best year. Period.

 

McGwire was the better hitter in 1998 - his OBP and SLG were each 80 points higher than Sammy's that year. Sammy's completeness as a player often rested on his speed - that year he was successful on 67% of his SB attempts (18 of 27). The debate over who was the MVP is a fair one, but the debate over who was the better player should start and end with McGwire.

 

I'm not sure that is the case. In 1998, McGwire led Sosa by four homeruns, and out slugged him by 100 points. Sosa had more RBI and a higher batting average. In 98, Sosa was a better base runner and better defender. It was close.

 

If you're talking better career player... :-k

 

McGwire has a career 263 BA compared to Sosa's 277.

McGwire has a career 394 OBP compared to Sosa's 348.

McGwire has a career 588 SLG compared to Sosa's 545.

McGwire has 583 HR's compared to Sosa's 574.

 

McGwire showed more power throughout his career, but if you use a grouping of five best seasons, Sosa looks a little better. McGwire was a decent fielder, while Sosa showed athleticism but had flaws. Sosa was a better base runner, especially earlier in his career. I don't think either one is clearly a better player than the other.