Strife

Carpenter's a couple years removed from his operation...

lol. :lol: Sure, I'll shut up. But in the future, if you don't want an argument, don't ask for it:

Wow, i didn't know rodriguez could catch the ball...i think that's the first thing he's done right outside of the batter's box in a Cards uniform.

unnecessary trolling. unnecessary trolling? It's a very relevant stat that Pujols has stepped it up as the Cardinals locked up the division, while Lee went 0-for-forever during that 8 game losing streak that crippled you guys. the cardinals have had the division locked up for months. don't act like they haven't. lee had a slump - okay, big deal. pujols, too, has slumped. it doesn't take away from the fact that lee has been an overall better player all season - note that i said ALL SEASON, which is what MVP voting is based on, not an 8-game stretch in august. All season? Have we played the whole season yet? I was under the impression we had a month and a half left. Seems to me that Lee had a good half and has been average or slightly better in the second half. The real difference between the two is that Lee's slump isn't quite through yet. When it is, Pujols will have the better numbers. Who are you, Nostradomus? Being able to predict the future must be something inherint in in people from St Louis. And Barrett just jobbed. I'll bet you, even money, right now that Pujols ends with a higher AVG, OBP, and OPS.

I do when my team isn't playing.

unnecessary trolling. unnecessary trolling? It's a very relevant stat that Pujols has stepped it up as the Cardinals locked up the division, while Lee went 0-for-forever during that 8 game losing streak that crippled you guys. the cardinals have had the division locked up for months. don't act like they haven't. lee had a slump - okay, big deal. pujols, too, has slumped. it doesn't take away from the fact that lee has been an overall better player all season - note that i said ALL SEASON, which is what MVP voting is based on, not an 8-game stretch in august. All season? Have we played the whole season yet? I was under the impression we had a month and a half left. Seems to me that Lee had a good half and has been average or slightly better in the second half. The real difference between the two is that Lee's slump isn't quite through yet. When it is, Pujols will have the better numbers.

if you'll trace all this back to the source, it was not me who started the MVP/Cy Young talk in this thread.

unnecessary trolling. unnecessary trolling? It's a very relevant stat that Pujols has stepped it up as the Cardinals locked up the division, while Lee went 0-for-forever during that 8 game losing streak that crippled you guys.

I always thought the reason Grudz was moved to second was that the Dodgers had a hole there when he left Montreal and signed with them.

Well he was a shortstop when he got to the bigs.

disingenuous? hahahahaha, yeah, okay. pujols trails in just about every offensive category to lee, yet he deserves the MVP? this isn't really the place for this, but i really think you can find a better argument against vance than this. it's really pathetic. He trails him in average and HR by a small amount, leads OBP by a small amount, trails in SLG by about 30 points, and other than that it's about even. The difference between the two is that Lee has been hitting .270 in the second half (while the Cubs fell apart), while Pujols has been hitting over .360 since the All-Star break, as the Cards put away the division. Who do you think will end up with the better stats? ;)

Clemens' opposition: .184 LD%, .238 BABIP Carpenter's opposition: .194 LD%, .263 BABIP Clemens hasn't been that much luckier than Carpenter. When you consider that Carp strikes out more batters, and only has a slightly higher LD%, the number of runs he's allowed is disproportionate.

Vance, maybe you can point out where I said that I think Carp deserves the Cy Young. I was responding to JonMDavis' query about what the arguments for Carp as Cy Young were. There they are: ERA is a luck-based stat. The only stats that aren't luck-based are K/BB, K/9, HR allowed (all this is in Moneyball and other books about misconceptions of baseball stats). Carp has more strikeouts, less walks, more k/ip, fewer bb/ip. But feel free to make your disingenuous Lee for MVP arguments while out of the other side of your mouth talking down on Cards fans who support their guy for an award.

well, there's the K/BB and better K/9, and there's the fact that Clemens is purely a 7 inning pitcher, whereas Carp has given the Cards' bullpen rest numerous times, with a league-leading 5 CGs, and the most IP in the NL. Also, the same people that brought us the "Wins and Losses are Overrated" philosophy (Bill James and followers) also think that ERA is just as much a byproduct of luck. Really the only thing a pitcher can control is Ks, walks, and HRs allowed. That Clemens ERA is that much lower than Carpenter's really only says that fewer of the balls he has allowed to be put into play have dropped for hits.

Geez, I wish we could trade in some of that 'luck' for a couple games of luck in last year's Series. For an intelligent person to say that luck is a primary factor in the Cardinals' success is just ludicrous.