Caray on the difference between the Cubs and Braves.

[scs_paradise]

Interesting Article:

Caray said that winning is approached differently with the Braves than with the Cubs.

 

''I was looking forward to the culture shock of going from the Cubs Nation to the Braves Nation,'' he said. ''The Cubs hope they're going to win, and the Braves every year expect to win. It's different. It's really been interesting to see.''

 

I hear people say this all the time but no one really ever explains it. I've experienced it as well but couldn't explain it my self. What do you do to get this change in mindset? I did get that feeling in 2003 that we expected to win but that could just be romance....

[JC]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

[Roast]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Funny, I dont remember that. (you're old)

 

:P

[Flames24Rulz]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Funny, I dont remember that. (you're old)

 

:P

 

i don't remember them being bad either.

[scs_paradise]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Yeah I remember the end of the dale murphy era, those horrible unis....they were bad. I don't know enough about their history, when they turned it around was it a new owner, gm, manager?? Or did they just "fall" into success?

[moorecg]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Yeah I remember the end of the dale murphy era, those horrible unis....they were bad. I don't know enough about their history, when they turned it around was it a new owner, gm, manager?? Or did they just "fall" into success?

 

Actually...it was the Cubs' fault.

 

8-10 years of a rotation of

Maddux,

Smoltz,

Glavine

 

set them up for success.

[XZero771679666304]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Funny, I dont remember that. (you're old)

 

:P

 

i don't remember them being bad either.

 

It wasn't that long ago. As recently as 89' the Braves were terrible, and they had been for the better part of the 80's, IIRC.

[scs_paradise]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Yeah I remember the end of the dale murphy era, those horrible unis....they were bad. I don't know enough about their history, when they turned it around was it a new owner, gm, manager?? Or did they just "fall" into success?

 

Actually...it was the Cubs' fault.

 

8-10 years of a rotation of

Maddux,

Smoltz,

Glavine

 

set them up for success.

 

well 1/3 our fault anyway....

 

if healthy (I know) Prior, wood, z.....could they be the next maddux, smoltz, glavine?

 

The difference I see is in the demeanor, I think prior could have pitched with those other three but I'm not sure wood and z could have...the braves just don't seem like the kind of guys wood and z would gel with....but I don't want to start talking about team chemistry.....

[fiver]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Funny, I dont remember that. (you're old)

 

:P

 

i don't remember them being bad either.

 

JC shouldn't be considered old soley because he remembers watching the Braves when they were lousy. :P I'm 26 and I certainly remember them when they were the doormats of the NL East. The Braves had Glavine and Smoltz surface in the late '80s. Maddux joined their rotation a couple years after, and they've won the NL East every year since.

[fiver]

....and Bobby Cox has a lot to do with their succes IMO....He managed some very good Toronto teams in the early '80s and then became the GM of Bravos. He soon after appointed himself manager of the team and that was one of the first of many good decisions that he made for the Braves thereafter.

[johnnyba99]

John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox joined the Braves in 1990. The first season was mediocre, but from 1991 on, you all know the story.

 

They were the doormats of the NL West back then, other than Dale Murphy I couldn't name one player from a single one of their teams in the 80's.

[fiver]

John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox joined the Braves in 1990. The first season was mediocre, but from 1991 on, you all know the story.

 

They were the doormats of the NL West back then, other than Dale Murphy I couldn't name one player from a single one of their teams in the 80's.

 

Were they in the West, really? I don't remember that detail for some reason.

 

ummmm...Zane Smith...Claudell Washington..Odibe Mcdowell. That's about all I have from the top of my head...Even though the Braves were much closer to where I lived in the 80's, the Cubs were still my team.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

They were the doormats of the NL West back then, other than Dale Murphy I couldn't name one player from a single one of their teams in the 80's.

 

Rick Mahler was the ace of the staff through the almost the entire decade. He was amongst the league leaders in IP and CG a few times. He should be admired for taking the mound every fifth day for years on those teams.

[johnnyba99]

Were they in the West, really? I don't remember that detail for some reason.

 

ummmm...Zane Smith...Claudell Washington..Odibe Mcdowell. That's about all I have from the top of my head...Even though the Braves were much closer to where I lived in the 80's, the Cubs were still my team.

 

Definitley were in the West division until Selig created the three division alignment (1994 I think). Odibe McDowell, I do remember him.

[MustangMike]

Interesting Article:

Caray said that winning is approached differently with the Braves than with the Cubs.

 

''I was looking forward to the culture shock of going from the Cubs Nation to the Braves Nation,'' he said. ''The Cubs hope they're going to win, and the Braves every year expect to win. It's different. It's really been interesting to see.''

 

I hear people say this all the time but no one really ever explains it. I've experienced it as well but couldn't explain it my self. What do you do to get this change in mindset? I did get that feeling in 2003 that we expected to win but that could just be romance....

 

I think attitude comes from winning. The yanks believe in themselves because they win year in and year out. The braves have won the division every year for how many years now, how can that NOT breed confidence and expectations of success? The cubs win the division what, like once a decade and were terrible for 30 years in a row? My dad raised me a cubs fan, but when i was real young we didn't go to see them win, we just went because they NEVER won. A few years of hitting the playoffs and it changes everyone's attitude. 40-41 with a high payroll, no faith in the manager and scattered faith with the GM, never a good combo. I don't even think the GM and Manager are on the same page, and I feel everyone knows that and its hurting the team. What's the focus and direction of this team? I can't see it.

[Cubfanintheknow]

Boy, reading some of these posts makes me feel old!

 

 

The Atlanta Braves were pretty much the doormats of the National League West in the 80's. But they had some good, young pitching they stuck with (notably Tom Glavine and Steve Avery) and went from worst to first in 1991--the same year the Twins pulled off their dramatic turnaround in the AL.

 

As far as "hoping vs. expecting," maybe there is a little different mindset. But it doesn't matter whether you hope or expect to win before the game starts. You still have to get the job done on the field. And I don't think that mindset comes into play when the game is on.

[biittner77]

I don't even think the GM and Manager are on the same page, and I feel everyone knows that and its hurting the team. What's the focus and direction of this team? I can't see it.

 

I think Hendry and Baker are on the same page. They both like experienced, aggressive hitters and hard throwing pitchers. They both want to win but are very traditional in their thinking. Both overvalue batting average and tend to overlook OBP. Consider this evidence:

 

Hendry trades for Randall Simon to replace Hee Sop Choi- a player that Baker agreed was not aggressive enough.

 

Hendry signs Burnitz to play RF and defends him by saying that he was 5th best at (something) among players that struck out a lot.

 

Hendry and Baker are very much on the same page. Unfortunately most of us- and a good portion of the league- have already read that book and didn't like how it ended.

 

Nothing will chnage unless 1 of these 2 things happens. Hendry pulls off a deal to bring in 2 hitters that represent sizeable upgrades over the incumbents or Hendry and Baker get fired and replaced by a new management team that value speed, defense and palyers that don't make as many outs.

[MustangMike]

I don't even think the GM and Manager are on the same page, and I feel everyone knows that and its hurting the team. What's the focus and direction of this team? I can't see it.

 

I think Hendry and Baker are on the same page. They both like experienced, aggressive hitters and hard throwing pitchers. They both want to win but are very traditional in their thinking. Both overvalue batting average and tend to overlook OBP. Consider this evidence:

 

Hendry trades for Randall Simon to replace Hee Sop Choi- a player that Baker agreed was not aggressive enough.

 

Hendry signs Burnitz to play RF and defends him by saying that he was 5th best at (something) among players that struck out a lot.

 

Hendry and Baker are very much on the same page. Unfortunately most of us- and a good portion of the league- have already read that book and didn't like how it ended.

 

Nothing will chnage unless 1 of these 2 things happens. Hendry pulls off a deal to bring in 2 hitters that represent sizeable upgrades over the incumbents or Hendry and Baker get fired and replaced by a new management team that value speed, defense and palyers that don't make as many outs.

 

I always had the feeling that Hendry liked the younger player, Dubois and Cendeno...players like that. He didn't give Baker an option in LF besides Hollandsworth yet he still played him. I don't think he can make him play anyone else. Maybe its just the losing thats making it feel like nothing is right in cubdom.

[Roast]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Funny, I dont remember that. (you're old)

 

:P

 

i don't remember them being bad either.

 

It wasn't that long ago. As recently as 89' the Braves were terrible, and they had been for the better part of the 80's, IIRC.

 

well, there is a good reason. I was born in 88.

[Fred Hornkohl]

The Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves are a very interesting franchise and a study in contrasts. The Braves, along with the CUBS, are the only two teams to compete each and every season since 1876. (That's the same season that the Indians beat the Custer's out in Montana). From 1876 through 1900, the Boston Braves were the best team in professional baseball. (The CUBS did run a close second.), But in 1901, everything changed. The American League was formed, and suddenly the Braves were challenged for popularity within their own home market. During the next 53 years, the Braves played like horse........ well..... lets just say they were bad. Only the Philadelphia Phillies and the St. Louis Browns had worse records during the period. (Those are 2 great studies in futility in their own right). The only highlight for the Braves during this period was the summer of 1914. Mired in dead last place in late June..... they came back to win the pennant and the World Series that year, their only title in Boston !! Then it was on to Milwaukee, where the Braves won another World Series, and were the second winningest team in the NL during the period. Then Bill Bartholomay decided he wasn't making enough money in Milwaukee, and uprooted the team for the greener pastures of Atlanta. In their first 24 years in the south, only the Cleveland Indians had worse winning record than the hapless Atlanta Braves. (I'm omitting the expansion teams of the period for this comparison). The turnaround of the Braves in 1991 is well known to all of us. For all their winning over the last 15 years, this franchise is still 41 games under .500 over it's lifetime. Hell, even the CUBS are 9,756 - 9,208 for a 0.5144 winning percentage over that time !!

 

                                                                 World Series
years       team                        W       L     pct    PA     W     L
1876 - 1900  Boston Braves           1686    1175   0.589     0     0     0
1901 - 1953  Boston Braves           3524    4485   0.440     2     1     1
1954 - 1966  Milwaukee Braves        1139     905   0.557     2     1     1
1967 - 1990  Atlanta Braves          1753    2060   0.460     2     0     0
1991 - 2004  Atlanta Braves          1341     859   0.610    13     1     4

franchise totals                     9443    9484   0.499    19     3     6

[CaliforniaRaisin]

John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox joined the Braves in 1990. The first season was mediocre, but from 1991 on, you all know the story.

 

They were the doormats of the NL West back then, other than Dale Murphy I couldn't name one player from a single one of their teams in the 80's.

 

Were they in the West, really? I don't remember that detail for some reason.

 

ummmm...Zane Smith...Claudell Washington..Odibe Mcdowell. That's about all I have from the top of my head...Even though the Braves were much closer to where I lived in the 80's, the Cubs were still my team.

 

They sure were in the West. Remember in 1993 when the Giants finished one game behind them and didn't make the playoffs despite winning 103 games?

[goonys evil twin]

John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox joined the Braves in 1990. The first season was mediocre, but from 1991 on, you all know the story.

 

They were the doormats of the NL West back then, other than Dale Murphy I couldn't name one player from a single one of their teams in the 80's.

 

Were they in the West, really? I don't remember that detail for some reason.

 

ummmm...Zane Smith...Claudell Washington..Odibe Mcdowell. That's about all I have from the top of my head...Even though the Braves were much closer to where I lived in the 80's, the Cubs were still my team.

 

They sure were in the West. Remember in 1993 when the Giants finished one game behind them and didn't make the playoffs despite winning 103 games?

 

Yeah, not only were the Braves in the West, so were the Reds. I was a pretty good student, but that always screwed with my geography. Plus, the White Sox were in the west, while the Brewers were in the AL East.

[Flames24Rulz]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Funny, I dont remember that. (you're old)

 

:P

 

i don't remember them being bad either.

 

It wasn't that long ago. As recently as 89' the Braves were terrible, and they had been for the better part of the 80's, IIRC.

 

well, there is a good reason. I was born in 88.

 

i was also born in 88 so thats why i didn't remember them being bad. It's really amazing that a team has won so much in such a long period of time like they have, yet they only have 1 WS to show for it in that time span.

[erik316wttn]

Its been interesting in my lifetime watching the Braves go from an atrocious, perennial laughing stock to the organization it is today.

 

Funny, I dont remember that. (you're old)

 

:P

 

i don't remember them being bad either.

 

It wasn't that long ago. As recently as 89' the Braves were terrible, and they had been for the better part of the 80's, IIRC.

 

well, there is a good reason. I was born in 88.

 

i was also born in 88 so thats why i didn't remember them being bad. It's really amazing that a team has won so much in such a long period of time like they have, yet they only have 1 WS to show for it in that time span.

 

To breed a winning tradition, you can't just field good players and hope for the best. A good on-field product is merely a part. You need an entire organization on the same page, from the GM to the manager, to the minor league coaches and managers, to the scouts, to the players on the ML roster. I'd be shocked if the Cubs had any 2 of those on the same page.

[dime]

bright spots to the 2005 season:

 

- no sammy

 

- no chip

 

- no alou

 

- derrek lee is the best player in baseball

 

- burnitz proves to be a very patient hitter, if not a powerful one

 

- aramis ramirez is locked up, and he's very very good

 

- ron santo is (relatively) well