Our outfield/leadoff solution

[Jehrico]

Why not just bring up Felix Pie now? Some guys are destined for greatdom, and there's no point in holding them down. The Marlins brought up Miguel Cabrera in 2003 when he was 20, ARod came up about that age too. The Cubs brought up Wood and Zambrano when they were only 20, so the precedent is there for the Cubs as well. Everyone seems to think that Pie is destined to be one of the elite. He's hit everywhere he has been at, and he's tearing up what is considered to be a strong league for pitchers. Plenty of guys have successfully made the jump from AA to the bigs and had success. I'd rather not trade Corey for another CF. Bring up Felix, and if he does well in the next couple of weeks and you're bent on trading Corey, see what elite reliever or corner OF and prospects you can get in return. I think it's time the Cubs took a gamble on Felix, and I think he's shown enough to where it shouldn't be considered rushing him too much.

 

What do you all think?

[BigbadB]

He's hurt right now. He'll miss at least the next two weeks. I definitely wouldn't want to bring him up after sitting for a month due to an injury.

[Tedward]

Why not just bring up Felix Pie now? Some guys are destined for greatdom, and there's no point in holding them down. The Marlins brought up Miguel Cabrera in 2003 when he was 20, ARod came up about that age too. The Cubs brought up Wood and Zambrano when they were only 20, so the precedent is there for the Cubs as well. Everyone seems to think that Pie is destined to be one of the elite. He's hit everywhere he has been at, and he's tearing up what is considered to be a strong league for pitchers. Plenty of guys have successfully made the jump from AA to the bigs and had success. I'd rather not trade Corey for another CF. Bring up Felix, and if he does well in the next couple of weeks and you're bent on trading Corey, see what elite reliever or corner OF and prospects you can get in return. I think it's time the Cubs took a gamble on Felix, and I think he's shown enough to where it shouldn't be considered rushing him too much.

 

What do you all think?

 

I think you run the risk of re-creating a Corey Patterson situation all over again. Many of Pie's skills are still raw and IMO he needs to further his development. I'd like to see him in AAA next season.

[XZero771679666304]

Why not just bring up Felix Pie now? Some guys are destined for greatdom, and there's no point in holding them down. The Marlins brought up Miguel Cabrera in 2003 when he was 20, ARod came up about that age too. The Cubs brought up Wood and Zambrano when they were only 20, so the precedent is there for the Cubs as well. Everyone seems to think that Pie is destined to be one of the elite. He's hit everywhere he has been at, and he's tearing up what is considered to be a strong league for pitchers. Plenty of guys have successfully made the jump from AA to the bigs and had success. I'd rather not trade Corey for another CF. Bring up Felix, and if he does well in the next couple of weeks and you're bent on trading Corey, see what elite reliever or corner OF and prospects you can get in return. I think it's time the Cubs took a gamble on Felix, and I think he's shown enough to where it shouldn't be considered rushing him too much.

 

What do you all think?

 

For starters, he's injured. And I for one really don't want to see him ruined like Patterson was by being yo-yo'ed up and down. It could work, but it's always a gamble, and if you lose, you usually lose big. I'd just as soon let him play out this year in the minors, see how that goes, and make a decison in ST.

[goonys evil twin]

Felix is actually not as bad a comparison to Cabrera as some may think, from strictly a numbers standpoint to this point in their careers. Neither guy was putting up particularly special numbers leading up to his breakout AA season.

 

But there are a couple of things working against your plan. First of all, as far as I can tell, Pie is still out with an injury that he suffered a couple weeks ago. Plus, his numbers, while very solid, were significantly less than Cabrera's breakout AA season. *And finally, Pie is not a great leadoff candidate. His walk rates are not that high, and his OBP is dominated by his AVG. Even a slight drop in AVG, which would be expected going from AA to the majors, would equate to a lackluster OBP, certainly not anything we can dub "the answer" to leadoff*. And on top of that, Cabrera was eased into the backend of a lineup that wasn't having any problems getting guys on base at the top. Calling up Pie, a relatively less accomplished prospect, to fill a major hole in this lineup, would be quite different than the situation Cabrera was in.

 

 

 

 

*Just to tie it in with the Cabrera comparison, Miguel was hitting .365/.429/.609 at AA when he was called up. He was used primarily in the 7 hole, and ended up with a line of .268/.325/.468, close to a 25% decline across the board. If Pie came up and experienced similar declines from his AA numbers to the majors, we could expect something like .228/.261/.415. Even if his decline was much less dramatic than Miggy's, he's still likely be significantly below anything we could consider season saving.

 

It's not worth the risk at this point of losing such a talented player.

Edited July 5, 2005 by goony's evil twin

[JC]

Pie's injury is the biggest reason I wouldn't consider a call up anytime soon. He will need time to get reaclimated to his league.

 

However, I don't really buy the argument that Pie would suffer the same fate as Patterson if he were to be brought up. They are two different people whose minor league numbers (correct me if I'm wrong) don't particularly mirror each other. Plus, Patterson seems a little mentally frail to me.

[goonys evil twin]

However, I don't really buy the argument that Pie would suffer the same fate as Patterson if he were to be brought up. They are two different people whose minor league numbers (correct me if I'm wrong) don't particularly mirror each other.

 

They don't mirror each other. Corey's were better, he had much more power in the lower ranks. But both struggled with BB/K ratios, and neither was a solid OBP guy. Unlike Corey, Felix has had a chance to hit each stop along the way and receive ample time to prove himself at those levels. But that process is not over, and the Cubs should not place any pressure on Pie to be the savior, especially not when he'd be replacing another player put in that same spot too early.

[Iceblink]

The most likely and reasonable solution for the OF/leadoff position for this season is to play Hairston in LF and CF (and occasionally 2B) and let him lead off. He can't steal bases very well, but he does get on base. Patterson and Neifi drop to the bottom of the order - though that means Barrett has to protect ARAM (Baylor's obsession this month), and Barrett might not be consistent or dangerous enough for that. Of course, neither are Corey or Neifi.

 

Three streaky, non-selective hitters make for a slump-prone team (add the slightly less streaky Burnitz and you've got four.) Getting some OBP out of the top of the order helps, but there's still more to address.

 

Rushing Pie to try to salvage something this year is potentially damaging to Felix; and Felix's skills, at least today, don't lend themselves to leading off. It's likely Hairston would outproduce Felix in the majors the rest of this season, anyway.

[CubfaninCA]

That solution has no chance. Baker hasn't been fired yet.

[Cubfanintheknow]

Pie's injury is the biggest reason I wouldn't consider a call up anytime soon. He will need time to get reaclimated to his league.

 

However, I don't really buy the argument that Pie would suffer the same fate as Patterson if he were to be brought up. They are two different people whose minor league numbers (correct me if I'm wrong) don't particularly mirror each other. Plus, Patterson seems a little mentally frail to me.

 

Injury aside, I also don't buy into the whole "rushing him like they rushed Patterson" argument. It's not necessarily a question of when players are called up. It's how they're used when they're called up. Patterson was used sparingly by Don Baylor and it seemed most of the time it was in bad situations from a developmental standpoint.

 

I think Pie would benefit greatly from playing every day at the major league level. If the Cubs can't turn it around soon, we just may get a chance to see come August 1.

[Jehrico]

I forgot he was hurt. It doesn't sound too bad though...if he comes back from his injury playing like he was, he could force himself into AAA this year, maybe on the big team next spring. Everyone says he needs more seasoning, but I see this kid forcing his way onto the roster sooner than later (assuming he doesn't have any other injury bugs...).

[goonys evil twin]

 

I think Pie would benefit greatly from playing every day at the major league level. If the Cubs can't turn it around soon, we just may get a chance to see come August 1.

 

In what alternative universe would Dusty Baker play Pie every day? Or, just what do you think would have to happen to this team to see Dusty leave the team by August?

[GaborBako]

Patterson's numbers were not better in the minors than Pie's have been. Corey had one very good year at Class A Lansing, then struggled at both AA and in Iowa. Corey was promoted because the Cubs had Sleeves Buford and Little Sarge in center.

 

Pie has had more success in his minor league career than Patterson ever did, and Felix has been the youngest player in three different leagues in his minor league career to this point.

 

However, throwing a rookie into the leadoff spot halfway through a season, to try and get back into the race isn't a smart thing to do. You'd be better off looking for a short-term fix and letting Felix come to Mesa next year with a shot at winning the CF spot.

[goonys evil twin]

Patterson's numbers were not better in the minors than Pie's have been. Corey had one very good year at Class A Lansing, then struggled at both AA and in Iowa. Corey was promoted because the Cubs had Sleeves Buford and Little Sarge in center.

 

Pie has had more success in his minor league career than Patterson ever did, and Felix has been the youngest player in three different leagues in his minor league career to this point.

 

Depends on how you define Corey's minor league career. Corey was better in the Midwest League than Pie was, although he was a year older. Corey never had the chance to play in the FSL though, and moved directly to AA. This was only his 2nd professional season. Pie had the chance to play in the FSL before moving up to AA, and that was his 3rd pro season, and those numbers were behind what Corey did in his 2nd season. Corey was pushed way too fast, came up too early, and was a victim of gross neglect by the organization as he yo-yoed from 2001 on.

[Cubfanintheknow]

 

I think Pie would benefit greatly from playing every day at the major league level. If the Cubs can't turn it around soon, we just may get a chance to see come August 1.

 

In what alternative universe would Dusty Baker play Pie every day? Or, just what do you think would have to happen to this team to see Dusty leave the team by August?

 

Funny, in a sad way.

[davecubsfan]

 

I think Pie would benefit greatly from playing every day at the major league level. If the Cubs can't turn it around soon, we just may get a chance to see come August 1.

 

In what alternative universe would Dusty Baker play Pie every day? Or, just what do you think would have to happen to this team to see Dusty leave the team by August?

 

Funny, in a sad way.

 

"We need speed off the bench man, Once Jose Macias gets on man, we'll sub in Pie to use that speed man"

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I forgot he was hurt. It doesn't sound too bad though...if he comes back from his injury playing like he was, he could force himself into AAA this year, maybe on the big team next spring. Everyone says he needs more seasoning, but I see this kid forcing his way onto the roster sooner than later (assuming he doesn't have any other injury bugs...).

 

Per Oneri Fleita earlier this season, Felix isn't leaving AA at all this season. Hopefully Fleita sticks to his word and Felix gets about 3-4 months at AAA next year before being called up.

[Shawon12]

I think you run the risk of re-creating a Corey Patterson situation all over again. Many of Pie's skills are still raw and IMO he needs to further his development. I'd like to see him in AAA next season.

 

I am not convinced that Corey would be any different of a player if we had let him play longer in the minors. He shows no signs of every changing. Why couldn't he develop up here? It's not like he was brought up and struggled so bad that he lost his confidence and ability to progress. Corey experienced enough success to suggest he was as ready as he was ever going to be...which, unfortunately, isn't as good as we all had hoped.

 

That being written, I still wait on Pie, even if he was healthy.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I think you run the risk of re-creating a Corey Patterson situation all over again. Many of Pie's skills are still raw and IMO he needs to further his development. I'd like to see him in AAA next season.

 

I am not convinced that Corey would be any different of a player if we had let him play longer in the minors. He shows no signs of every changing. Why couldn't he develop up here? It's not like he was brought up and struggled so bad that he lost his confidence and ability to progress. Corey experienced enough success to suggest he was as ready as he was ever going to be...which, unfortunately, isn't as good as we all had hoped.

 

That being written, I still wait on Pie, even if he was healthy.

 

Corey was rushed up without a chance to adapt and change his game, then yo-yo'ed between the major league bench at AAA. By the time he was a regular, he hadn't been given enough proper instruction on how to improve his game. Once he became a regular, he wasn't going to change what had gotten him success all his life.

[Shawon12]

I think you run the risk of re-creating a Corey Patterson situation all over again. Many of Pie's skills are still raw and IMO he needs to further his development. I'd like to see him in AAA next season.

 

I am not convinced that Corey would be any different of a player if we had let him play longer in the minors. He shows no signs of every changing. Why couldn't he develop up here? It's not like he was brought up and struggled so bad that he lost his confidence and ability to progress. Corey experienced enough success to suggest he was as ready as he was ever going to be...which, unfortunately, isn't as good as we all had hoped.

 

That being written, I still wait on Pie, even if he was healthy.

 

Corey was rushed up without a chance to adapt and change his game, then yo-yo'ed between the major league bench at AAA. By the time he was a regular, he hadn't been given enough proper instruction on how to improve his game. Once he became a regular, he wasn't going to change what had gotten him success all his life.

 

How old is he? 25?? It is NOT too late to start making adjustments..minor league or major league. In fact, keeping him in the minor leagues may have masked his shortcomings and slowed his growth even more. It should have become apparent to him that he must make adjustments to be successful in the MLB. It's not to late.