Dusty Bad Managerial Moves Thread

[TruffleShuffle]

For the sake of starting the Prior/Wood arm useage argument up again, from a different angle: How much impact do you think the use of these two guys had had BEFORE they became Cubs? I know Wood's high-school coach used Wood for an insane amount of innings, especially during their last state playoff run. And I could be wrong about this, but doesn't Prior hold the record for most Innings pitched at USC? Again, I coulkd be wrong on that. Might be an interesting point to consider.... :?:

 

I don't know, but I've heard Dusty bashed for abusing various starters, setup men and closers during his career, which is really hard to do. The only thing I can conclude from this is that Dusty's teams simply play more innings than every other team in baseball.

[CuseCubFan69]

For the sake of starting the Prior/Wood arm useage argument up again, from a different angle: How much impact do you think the use of these two guys had had BEFORE they became Cubs? I know Wood's high-school coach used Wood for an insane amount of innings, especially during their last state playoff run. And I could be wrong about this, but doesn't Prior hold the record for most Innings pitched at USC? Again, I coulkd be wrong on that. Might be an interesting point to consider.... :?:

 

I don't know, but I've heard Dusty bashed for abusing various starters, setup men and closers during his career, which is really hard to do. The only thing I can conclude from this is that Dusty's teams simply play more innings than every other team in baseball.

 

Dusty is a firm believer in winning and playing in one run games. He manages that way and stresses to his players the value of doing just that. This will go with your more innings statement.

[CubinNY]

I'm curious as well, what exactly did Dusty do that caused Fox to get injured? Did he leave him out there too long? Is Fox not supposed to throw more than 20 pitches? If that's the case why is there no hate being spewed for Rothschild, he was the one who said leave him in there for 1 more batter(correct me if I'm wrong, just going off of what other people say, I don't get WCIU)

 

Fox pitched a total of 8 innings for Dusty Baker, 8! Yet somehow Baker has ended his career.

 

It's not how many innings but when. Fox pitched in 3 consecutive days. The culmination was yesterday's blow out. There was absolutly no reason for him to be in there, none. I don't blame Dusty for injurying Fox, but I do question his baseball acumen.

 

How do you pitch a guy comming off of a serious arm injury in 3 straight games? Espeically when he has been anointed as the closer de jour.

 

If a tree falls in the forest...can we blame Dusty?

 

Fox closed one game, he's not our closer.

[Dunston_to_Ryno_to_Grace]

***MINORITY OPINION CENSORED!!!!*** Edited May 6, 2005 by Dunston_to_Ryno_to_Grace

[UK1679666180]

I have no problem with a manager working his starters hard, if the situation merits it. But, if the Cubs are up 8-2 and Z has 115 pitches thru 6 and laboring, he should have been pulled.

 

Looking for proof?

 

Zambrano in 2004'

 

 

 

April 15-117 pitches in a 10-5 win (9-1 when he left the game)

April 20-111 pitches in a 9-1 win

May 13-114 pitches in a 7-3 win (6-1 when he was pulled)

May 30-110 pitches in a 12-1 win

June 5th-113 pitches in a 6-1 win

June 10th-121 pitches (12-3 win)

June 26th-128 pitches thru 6 in a 6-3 loss

July 2nd-124 pitches thru 6.1 (6-2 win)

July 29th-120 pitches in a 4-0 win

Aug. 11th-124 pitches in a 5-1 win

Aug. 23rd-115 pitches thru 6.2 in a 8-3 win

Sept. 6th-119 pitches in a 9-1 win

Sept. 17th-112 pitches in a 12-4 win

Sept. 27th-124 pitches thru 6.1IP in a 12-5 win

 

14 out of 31 starts the Cubs could have been more cautious w/Zambrano.

 

Carlos wasn't injured, yet extremely stupid and careless to work him like that in situations when he should have been pulled.

[UK1679666180]

...How do you pitch a guy comming off of a serious arm injury in 3 straight games? Espeically when he has been anointed as the closer de jour.

 

As a professional big league relief pitcher, if you can't throw three straight days without risking serious arm injury, there's something very wrong. If this is the case with Fox, the Cubs should never have signed him. Or any other team for that matter.

 

If Baker is incorrect enough to use 7 relievers, he should be able to allocate time, to where he doesn't have to use a reliever coming of the second of 3 three serious arm injuries on back to nights for the 2nd time in a week. He is coming off an arm injury, ease him back into the process, he is still getting his arm back into shape.

 

7 relievers in a 4 run lead and you have to throw a reliever coming back from an arm injury on back to back cold days is either careless for the pitchers, inability to manage a bullpen, or both. I'm going with both.

[wastra]

My main question is whether or not Dusty starts the circus midget at second base again tonight since he managed to get his second whole hit of hte year last night.

[Careless]

No one's posted here yet? When you essentially PH blanco for Dubois, that has to be recognized universally as stupid or malevolent

[UK1679666180]

No one's posted here yet? When you essentially PH blanco for Dubois, that has to be recognized universally as stupid or malevolent

 

Desensitized?

[J.R.]

No one's posted here yet? When you essentially PH blanco for Dubois, that has to be recognized universally as stupid or malevolent

 

I'm starting to believe it's the latter. Evil Dusty, dude.

[JC]

No one's posted here yet? When you essentially PH blanco for Dubois, that has to be recognized universally as stupid or malevolent

 

There are just too many objectively bad decisions to count.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

man... where to begin for tonight's game

 

the cubs deserved to lose for being so stupid

[brinoch]

Robb Nen comes to mind.

 

So does Jason Schmidt.

[TruffleShuffle]

Robb Nen comes to mind.

 

So does Jason Schmidt.

 

Wait, just to make sure, we're talking about pitchers Dusty has "ruined" right? I assume you're referring to the same Jason Schmidt who had elbow problems the year before he got traded to San Francisco? And the same Jason Schmidt who had these average pitch counts?

 

1998: 105.5

1999: 108.6

2000: 109.5

2001: (Pit) 98.1

2001: (SF) 103.1

2002: 104.4

2003: 106.8

2004: 112.8

 

 

Note that the two years Dusty was his manager, he had his lowest pitch counts in a 7 year stretch. Yet Dusty is the one who caused his injuries?

 

As for Nen:

 

1995: 62 G, 65.2 IP (Fla)

1996: 75 G, 83.0 IP (Fla)

1997: 73 G, 74.0 IP (Fla)

1998: 78 G, 88.2 IP (SF)

1999: 72 G, 72.1 IP

2000: 68 G, 66.0 IP

2001: 79 G, 77.2 IP

2002: 68 G, 73.2 IP

AVG: 72 G, 75 IP

Avg (Fla): 70 G, 74 IP

Avg (SF): 73 G, 76 IP

 

M. Rivera:

1996: 61 G, 107.2 IP

1997: 66 G, 72 IP

1998: 54 G, 61 IP

1999: 66 G, 69 IP

2000: 66 G, 76 IP

2001: 71 G, 81 IP

2002: 45 G, 46 IP (inj)

2003: 64 G, 71 IP

2004: 74 G, 79 IP

AVG (w/o 2002): 65 G, 77 IP

 

T. Hoffman:

1996: 70 G, 88 IP

1997: 70 G, 81 IP

1998: 66 G, 73 IP

1999: 64 G, 67 IP

2000: 70 G, 72 IP

2001: 62 G, 60 IP

2002: 61 G, 59 IP

AVG: 66 G, 72 IP

 

T. Percival:

1996: 70 G, 88 IP

1997: 70 G, 81 IP

1998: 66 G, 73 IP

1999: 64 G, 67 IP

2000: 70 G, 72 IP

2001: 62 G, 60 IP

2002: 61 G, 59 IP

2003: 52 G, 49 IP (some inj)

2004: 52 G, 49 IP (some inj)

AVG (w/o inj years): 66 IP, 71 IP

 

 

What do these guys have in common? For one thing, their numbers are very similar. Nen pitched a few more games than the other guys on average, but had fewer games where he had to pitch more than 1 inning. Also, each of these guys has had injury problems, and each of these guys has been considered an elite closer. So either closers are just abused by every manager, or Nen was abused and the others just had bad luck.

 

If you ask people around baseball, most would say that his delivery - little leg kick and very little drive with his lower half - was the source of his shoulder problems. Guys who generate most of their power based on purely their arm strength are prone to break down more than guys who drive with their legs, and Nen is about the most extreme example of a guy who used his arm strength and not his legs.

[Holy Cow]

Who is worried about defensive replacements late in the game when we are down by 3? We need RUNS. Having Dubois and Barret in would have been nice, although Dusty was kinda bailed out by the error on the Blanco groudout.

[brinoch]

Truffle, you might very well be right about Schmidt. That's my perception without the necessary support. However, as to Baker pitching arms into the ground, there are many opinions supporting that supposition. In 2000, BP named Baker as the most abusive manager in baseball.

 

In 2003, the Cubs lead the league in PAP. Look at the numbers for Prior, Zambrano and Wood, it's sickening. I believe that the struggles Wood and Prior had in 2004 are largely in part to their overusage.

 

In 2004, the Cubs were 3rd in PAP. Take a look at Zambrano and Wood; Prior doesn't get the abuse because they really took care not to abuse him. How long before Zambrano's elbow goes boom? With this usage pattern, unless he's Livan Hernandez, it'll probably happen.

 

Were the 2004 problems with Wood and Prior related to the 2003 overuse? I believe so. Tim did an excellent study, which I know you've seen, about Wood coming off starts with more than 120 pitches and how poorly he does.

[Yeti]

ive quit reading this thread, i know what it will say each and every day cause i watch every pitch...

i just like seeing how many pages it grows each day

[Yeti]

i dunno if it was mentioned or not cause i quit reading the thread, but how about...

WTF was Z even in today for with a blister???it WAS his problem today...i called it when he went out with it last game he pitched(granted it was to a friend sitting in my house cant be found on the board)......he needed a week+ off....good thing we got 2 off days b4 he's up again...maybe that thing can heal...dusty is gambling on Z healing quick against Z's season

UNFORGIVABLE!!!

 

 

now i know you'll say blisters dont wreck a season, but if they never have a chance to heal, Z wont be effective...give the kid a day off and let him heal

[TruffleShuffle]

Truffle, you might very well be right about Schmidt. That's my perception without the necessary support. However, as to Baker pitching arms into the ground, there are many opinions supporting that supposition. In 2000, BP named Baker as the most abusive manager in baseball.

 

In 2003, the Cubs lead the league in PAP. Look at the numbers for Prior, Zambrano and Wood, it's sickening. I believe that the struggles Wood and Prior had in 2004 are largely in part to their overusage.

 

In 2004, the Cubs were 3rd in PAP. Take a look at Zambrano and Wood; Prior doesn't get the abuse because they really took care not to abuse him. How long before Zambrano's elbow goes boom? With this usage pattern, unless he's Livan Hernandez, it'll probably happen.

 

Were the 2004 problems with Wood and Prior related to the 2003 overuse? I believe so. Tim did an excellent study, which I know you've seen, about Wood coming off starts with more than 120 pitches and how poorly he does.

 

BP is really obnoxious. They act like they know everything and like what they say is gospel. In that article they basically say that Livan Hernandez will either get hurt or be ineffective the rest of his career because of the abuse he's taken from his managers. So where's the mea culpa from them, now that Hernandez has posted his best ERA+'s in back to back seasons? Of course, it's nowhere, because they'll never admit that they were wrong.

 

Russ Ortiz is another guy Dusty has supposedly abused, yet his ERA+ the last two years is right in line with his career average. Jason Schmidt was destroyed so badly by all the abused that he's thrown only 206 innings per year the last three seasons, and finished in the top 4 of Cy Young voting each of the last two years.

 

But they never mention any of that. See, from where they're sitting, it's easy to bring up the guys who got ineffective or injured, and blame it on the manager for abuse. But what about guys who were not abused and still got hurt? Or the guys who were abused and still turned into outstanding pitcher? They don't prove their point, so they sweep those guys under the rug.

 

Here's a tip. Check out the numbers early in the careers of Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens. Maddux was throwing 230-265 innings a year between age 22 and age 25, and Clemens was 250-280 innings a year between age 23 and age 25. According to BP, these two guys should have been injured, ineffective and out of the league... but hey look what happened, they both pitched 20 years in the majors and turned into two of the best pitchers of their generation!

[frostwyrm]

Dubois jacks a homer Apr. 27 but gets pinch hit for by badly slumping Holla again. Macias PHed for him the day before. Will Dubois ever play a whole game in a Cubs uniform? How bad does Holla have to be to get benched?

[ZZ Thorn]

To me Dubois is right on track - he's out-hitting Holla by an excellent margin, and Holla's not doing that well, which is no surprise. Dubois is starting to get more starts. If he keeps hitting that'll increase and Holla will be where he should be, on the bench.

 

Dubois has to stop making Holla-as-defensive-replacement seem like a good idea tho. Dubois is whiffing more than I hoped, but he's producing otherwise - right on track....

[frostwyrm]

To me Dubois is right on track - he's out-hitting Holla by an excellent margin, and Holla's not doing that well, which is no surprise. Dubois is starting to get more starts. If he keeps hitting that'll increase and Holla will be where he should be, on the bench.

 

Dubois has to stop making Holla-as-defensive-replacement seem like a good idea tho. Dubois is whiffing more than I hoped, but he's producing otherwise - right on track....

 

So when do you think Dubois will get regular starts vs. RH pitchers? The fact that Macias pinch hit for Dubois vs. a RH reliever Saturday, on a day when he was 2-3, shows me that Dusty still has very little confidence in Dubois' ability to hit RH pitching. He will remain badly underused for a while yet. If Holla has a hot streak Dubois should ask to be traded.

[J.R.]

I still can't get over the fact that Dusty's ridiculous machinations resulted in the benching of Dubois, Barrett and Hairston, three of our better hitters of late, in the middle of a slugfest. It just makes no sense.

[TruffleShuffle]

Does anyone know what Dubois' stats were against RHP in the minors?

[ZZ Thorn]

To me Dubois is right on track - he's out-hitting Holla by an excellent margin, and Holla's not doing that well, which is no surprise. Dubois is starting to get more starts. If he keeps hitting that'll increase and Holla will be where he should be, on the bench.

 

Dubois has to stop making Holla-as-defensive-replacement seem like a good idea tho. Dubois is whiffing more than I hoped, but he's producing otherwise - right on track....

 

So when do you think Dubois will get regular starts vs. RH pitchers? The fact that Macias pinch hit for Dubois vs. a RH reliever Saturday, on a day when he was 2-3, shows me that Dusty still has very little confidence in Dubois' ability to hit RH pitching. He will remain badly underused for a while yet. If Holla has a hot streak Dubois should ask to be traded.

 

I'm sure your joking. The 27 year old rookie making a demand like that is laughable... if he did I'd hope they'd demote him back to the minors.

 

Just go with me here: Dusty, as mananger of people, needs to support all his players, even when they suck. Especially with vets who have had success in the past, and are older, he has to baby them a bit. Hendry and Dusty always said HOlla was the starter, they can't just bench him at the first sign of struggling, can they? That would demoralize him and send a bad message to the team. It's a long season.

 

I think yeah, maybe in a month, if things progress like they are, Dubois will have proven to all, including Holla, that he should start regularly.