2022 Hall of Fame

[OleMissCub]

Ok, so the Vets Committee et al voted in:

 

Bud Fowler - first AA player in organized baseball, so that's cool

Buck O'Neill - of course he should be in

Gil Hodges - not a HOFer imo. If he had played in Cleveland he wouldn't even be considered. I do think he might have been a HOF manager if he had lived though.

Tony Oliva - I've never given much thought to him as a HOFer, but looking at his stats, I could see why the Vets would put him in. He only played 11 seasons over 120 games and led the league in hits 5 of those 11 seasons. His HOF monitor score is a pretty stout 114.

Jim Kaat - Meh, seems like the definition of a compiler. He only had one season where he finished Top 5 in Cy Young voting.

Minnie Minoso - an early color barrier pioneer who was a heck of a player and actually got a basehit in an MLB game at age 50. I'm fine with that selection as well.

 

Now the fun part:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2022.shtml

 

My ballot would be

Clemens

Bonds

Sosa

Manny

A-Rod

Rolen

Helton

Ortiz

Sheffield

Andruw

[UMFan83]

Have they already started tracking ballots? I am hoping the last year on the ballot will soften enough voters to put in at least Clemens and Bonds, like they were punishing them, but I know that is very unlikely. Like I just can't give a horsefeathers about the baseball HOF when they put in guys like Harold Baines (not to mention keep outward racists like Cap Anson in there) and not Barry horsefeathering Bonds. Bonds and Clemens seem the most obvious but eventually guys like Manny, ARod should be in there.

[OleMissCub]

Have they already started tracking ballots? I am hoping the last year on the ballot will soften enough voters to put in at least Clemens and Bonds, like they were punishing them, but I know that is very unlikely. Like I just can't give a horsefeathers about the baseball HOF when they put in guys like Harold Baines (not to mention keep outward racists like Cap Anson in there) and not Barry horsefeathering Bonds. Bonds and Clemens seem the most obvious but eventually guys like Manny, ARod should be in there.

 

Regarding A-Rod, he's done a really damn good job at attempting to rehab his image in recent years. I think he gets in this year, as he should.

[cl smooth]

Have they already started tracking ballots? I am hoping the last year on the ballot will soften enough voters to put in at least Clemens and Bonds, like they were punishing them, but I know that is very unlikely. Like I just can't give a horsefeathers about the baseball HOF when they put in guys like Harold Baines (not to mention keep outward racists like Cap Anson in there) and not Barry horsefeathering Bonds. Bonds and Clemens seem the most obvious but eventually guys like Manny, ARod should be in there.

 

yeah, some goobers have shown their ballots with jeff kent as one of their choices.

[OleMissCub]

 

yeah, some goobers have shown their ballots with jeff kent as one of their choices.

 

I mean, I don't think he's a HOfer but at least a somewhat honest case could be made for him unlike some people who are actually in the HOF.

 

Here's a random observation: Bobby Abreu has absolutely zero HOF buzz yet he has more WAR than Vlad.

[Rob]

Being a shitty person isn't enough to warrant keeping somebody from the Hall of Fame, given the quality of many of the already-enshrined individuals.

 

However, I see little reason to reward people for their awfulness in a way that let's them profit on it by going to conventions and ratcheting up their price to sign a baseball because they're a Hall of Famer. If you're a domestic abuser (Bonds, Vizquel, Jones), potential pedophile/groomer (Clemens), or just a generally awful and racist piece of trash (Schilling, Kent), then I think you should get the presumptive Pete Rose treatment and only end up enshrined posthumously.

 

And while I don't care about steroids from the guys who were abusing them with the implicit permission of the owners to do so -- such as Bonds and Clemens -- I've yet to decide how I think best to handle those busted for using steroids after that date came and went. I'm inclined to think A-Rod was a Hall of Famer anyways... but Manny is a close call, even if it only impacted his counting stats.

 

So my ballot:

 

Abreu

Helton

Ortiz

Rodriguez

Rolen

Sheffield

Sosa

 

I think all of those are deserving inductees [sosa gets in largely for overall contribution to renewing the popularity of the game rather than his numbers, which would come up short on their own]. For my final three votes, I'd play a bit of triage by keeping Manny's candidacy on the board to evaluate later. Probably toss one at Joe Nathan for the same reason.

 

For the final one I'm torn. I don't think there's a deserving candidate left on the board, as all of these guys are Hall of Very Good. Closest to deserving might be Papelbon, but Nathan was better and I see Nathan as a pretty weak candidate, honestly. So I think I just toss my final vote at Tim Lincecum as a "I know you're not getting in, but thanks for all the fun" vote.

[UMFan83]

 

yeah, some goobers have shown their ballots with jeff kent as one of their choices.

 

I mean, I don't think he's a HOfer but at least a somewhat honest case could be made for him unlike some people who are actually in the HOF.

 

Here's a random observation: Bobby Abreu has absolutely zero HOF buzz yet he has more WAR than Vlad.

 

Abreu was a WAR machine just before the era where people started legitimizing that statistic. He was always looked at as good but not given the attention that someone who averaged 6 bWAR over a 7 year period deserves. Then he became a true good but not great player for the last 10 years of his career. I bet he's someone that some committee in the future votes in after taking another look at his numbers and realizing how good he actually was.

[CubinNY]

 

yeah, some goobers have shown their ballots with jeff kent as one of their choices.

 

I mean, I don't think he's a HOfer but at least a somewhat honest case could be made for him unlike some people who are actually in the HOF.

 

Here's a random observation: Bobby Abreu has absolutely zero HOF buzz yet he has more WAR than Vlad.

It's hard for me to understand how one of the best offensive 2nd basemen in the history of the sport doesn't get into the HOF. He was kind of a dick and not that good of a fielder so those are minuses, but still. Lou Whitaker (7th all-time WAR) isn't in either.

[OleMissCub]

Lou Whitaker (7th all-time WAR) isn't in either.

 

I really think he gets in next year when the Modern Baseball Committee meets again. Having a scandal free player with a 75 WAR NOT be in the Hall is absurd. Literally the ONLY scandal free position players with a 70+ WAR who aren't in the HOF (and are currently eligible) are Rolen (70.1), Grich (71), Lou (75.1), and Bill Dahlen (75.2)

[champaignchris]

Bonds, Clemons, Schilling and ARod should all be no brainers. It would be the height of hypocrisy for ARod to get in with Bonds and Clemons being left out. As far as I can see, the only reason Schilling has been excluded is that he’s a jerk. He is a jerk, but that’s not a good reason.

 

I’d also vote for Manny, Rolen and A Jones.

 

I have a hard time differentiating Sheffield, Sosa and Abreu. I think they should either all be in or all be out. I think I’m more tepid on Sosa than I should be because I’m afraid my Cubs fandom is biasing me in his favor and then overcorrect.

[apete6]

In order, here's my HOF ballot:

 

10 in: Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Rolen, Sosa, Sheffield, Andruw Jones, Ortiz, Todd Helton, Bobby Abreu

 

2 that I'm on the fence on because they got busted for PEDs AFTER it was against the rules, which, in my opinion, is a bit different because it was pretty damn clear by then: AROD, Manny

 

If I have to insert those 2 onto the ballot for the list of 10 only, it goes: Bonds, Clemens, AROD, Manny, Schilling, Rolen, Sosa, Sheffield, Jones, Ortiz

[We Got The Whole 9]

Rolen is mostly remembered as a Cardinal so I'm totally fine with him getting shafted for lacking traditional counting numbers.

 

I wish Abreu would get more respect but he's probably never going to get in.

[CubinNY]

In order, here's my HOF ballot:

 

10 in: Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Rolen, Sosa, Sheffield, Andruw Jones, Ortiz, Todd Helton, Bobby Abreu

 

2 that I'm on the fence on because they got busted for PEDs AFTER it was against the rules, which, in my opinion, is a bit different because it was pretty damn clear by then: AROD, Manny

 

If I have to insert those 2 onto the ballot for the list of 10 only, it goes: Bonds, Clemens, AROD, Manny, Schilling, Rolen, Sosa, Sheffield, Jones, Ortiz

 

That's a great list. I have a grandiose idea to re-organize the HOF into semi-defined eras and dramatically enlarge who gets in. I think players should be judged by the era in which they played.

 

Dead ball

Pre-integration

Integration

Expansion

Steroid (and call it that)

Whatever this era gets called in 20 years.

[Rob]

Put it in the general thread, but it should have probably gone here.

 

Results are in: David Ortiz elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. No other inductees.

 

ETA: Vote Totals

 

David Ortiz 307 (77.9%), Barry Bonds 260 (66.0), Roger Clemens 257(65.2), Scott Rolen 249 (63.2), Curt Schilling 231 (58.6), Todd Helton 205 (52.0), Billy Wagner 201 (51.0), Andruw Jones 163 (41.4), Gary Sheffield 160 (40.6), Álex Rodríguez 135 (34.3), Jeff Kent 129 (32.7), Manny Ramírez 114 (28.9), Omar Vizquel 94 (23.9), Sammy Sosa 73 (18.5), Andy Pettitte 42 (10.7), Jimmy Rollins 37 (9.4), Bobby Abreu 34 (8.6), Mark Buerhle 23 (5.8), Torii Hunter 21 (5.3), Joe Nathan 17 (4.3), Tim Hudson 12 (3.0), Tim Lincecum 9 (2.3), Ryan Howard 8 (2.0), Mark Teixeira 6 (1.5), Justin Morneau 5 (1.3), Jonathan Papelbon 5 (1.3), Prince Fielder 2 (0.5), A.J. Pierzynski 2 (0.5), Carl Crawford 0, Jake Peavy 0.

 

 

Sucks that Joe Nathan fell off the ballot without any real debate. That's one of my big problems with the way the voters have been punishing obviously deserving candidates like Bonds and Clemens -- the backlog has let quite a few people who aren't Bonds/Clemens level of godly get lost in the shuffle, even though they might be deserving on the merits.

[UMFan83]

Not that I ever expected Sammy to get voted in, but sad to see him drop off the ballot. Really hope these committees see things differently than the voters did. Sammy not be close to the level of Bonds and Clemens but without penalizing for steroids he should be in there.

[OleMissCub]

Not really understanding the disconnect between Bonds\Clemens voters and A-Rod only getting 34%. Ridiculous

[UMFan83]

Not really understanding the disconnect between Bonds\Clemens voters and A-Rod only getting 34%. Ridiculous

 

He was a repeat offender, so he got punished twice and thus had half the votes

[Andy]

Not that I ever expected Sammy to get voted in, but sad to see him drop off the ballot. Really hope these committees see things differently than the voters did. Sammy not be close to the level of Bonds and Clemens but without penalizing for steroids he should be in there.

He got fewer votes than Omar Vizquel, so I guess domestic abuse and sexual harassment are less problematic than steroid use.

[UMFan83]

The other thing that bugs me is that they aren't even consistent in punishing steroid users. David Ortiz was named as one of the ~100 players to test positive for PEDs in 2003. It was the only time he tested positive or was caught in connection to PEDs. Sammy Sosa was named as one of the ~100 players to test positive for PEDs in 2003. It was the only time he tested positive or was caught in connection to PEDs.

 

One is a first ballot HOFer, the other is off the ballot with less than 20% of the vote. Sosa had a higher career WAR (though are close) and played a defensive positon his entire career. I guess the argument was that 2003 was before David Ortiz was really David Ortiz and 95% of his production came after that test while Sosa's career took off after his alleged PED test. But in this case you are making assumptions. You are assuming Sosa started doing steroids between 1996-1998 and was caught in 2003. You are assuming Ortiz got caught in 2003 and never used PEDs again.

 

It's just all so stupid....when you put Harold Baines in the HOF but keep out guys like Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire and Sosa, etc etc) the honor loses all credibility imo

Edited January 26, 2022 by UMFan83

[OleMissCub]

Yes, remarkably inconsistent with regards to juicers/potential juicers being left out but Ortiz being first ballot.

[Rob]

Yes, remarkably inconsistent with regards to juicers/potential juicers being left out but Ortiz being first ballot.

 

I still think treating players and failed tests from the pre-testing era differently is perfectly defensible.

 

(1) The tests weren't really failed. Normal testing gets retested to verify results. MLB just went with the first test on these.

(2) We really don't know who failed those tests. Reporting of Ortiz and Sosa could be erroneous. And there could be a bunch of other names on that list that haven't leaked.

(3) Doping wasn't really against the rules at the time

(4) The owners were implicitly encouraging the doping to sell tickets

(5) It sounds as though the doping was truly ubiquitous at the time, so there's no real issue comparing them against their peers.

 

Of course, nowadays it's completely different. There's due process on testing. Results are published. It is against the rules. MLB is trying to crack down on it. And the testing ensures that current players largely aren't doing it -- so the cheaters are getting an actual edge from it.

 

I can 100% understand how you could vote for Bonds / Clemens and leave A-Rod off your ballot. Or vote for Ortiz but leave Manny off.

[OleMissCub]

So the 1988-2016 Vets Committee meets next year. Will be interesting to see how they treat Bonds and Clemens. I imagine Lofton has a real shot next year with the committee.

[UMFan83]

Yes, remarkably inconsistent with regards to juicers/potential juicers being left out but Ortiz being first ballot.

 

I still think treating players and failed tests from the pre-testing era differently is perfectly defensible.

 

(1) The tests weren't really failed. Normal testing gets retested to verify results. MLB just went with the first test on these.

(2) We really don't know who failed those tests. Reporting of Ortiz and Sosa could be erroneous. And there could be a bunch of other names on that list that haven't leaked.

(3) Doping wasn't really against the rules at the time

(4) The owners were implicitly encouraging the doping to sell tickets

(5) It sounds as though the doping was truly ubiquitous at the time, so there's no real issue comparing them against their peers.

 

Of course, nowadays it's completely different. There's due process on testing. Results are published. It is against the rules. MLB is trying to crack down on it. And the testing ensures that current players largely aren't doing it -- so the cheaters are getting an actual edge from it.

 

I can 100% understand how you could vote for Bonds / Clemens and leave A-Rod off your ballot. Or vote for Ortiz but leave Manny off.

 

That’s fine but we’re also talking about inconsistent between players with very similar circumstances like Ortiz/Sosa.

 

Some will say Sosa was a borderline HOF or his peak was too short or whatever but if Ortiz is first ballot, Sosa should be in

 

To your point though, I don’t think it should matter at all. However they accumulated their numbers, they were accumulated and it’s a museum to honor the best most dominant players in baseball history. If they got caught during the testing era they will serve their suspensions as per the rules just like players that may have been caught with corked bats or using foreign substances. Or like others have mentioned been charged with violent crimes.

 

There are so many names now that aren’t in the HOF that I can no longer take it seriously as a measuring stick of the best players in baseball history.

 

Someone should create another HOF and enshrine all the current HOFers then add Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Rose, Sosa, Manny, Albert Belle, ARod etc

[Rob]

So the 1988-2016 Vets Committee meets next year. Will be interesting to see how they treat Bonds and Clemens. I imagine Lofton has a real shot next year with the committee.

 

There are a lot of potentially interesting and deserving candidates. Albert Belle, Will Clark, Orel Hershiser, Joe Carter, Mark McGwire, Kevin Brown, David Cone, Chuck Finley, Dwight Gooden, Al Leiter, Brad Radke, Bret Saberhagen, Curt Schilling, Fernando Valenzuela, David Wells, Javy Lopez, Mark Grace, Fred McGriff, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Mo Vaughn, Chuck Knoblauch, Robin Ventura, Matt Williams, Jose Canseco, Juan González, Kenny Lofton, & Bernie Williams.

 

Unfortunately, I anticipate another logjam at this level. There's really no debate on McGwire, Sosa, and Palmeiro until Bonds and Clemens are in. And there isn't much hope for guys like McGriff, Lofton, and Bernie Williams getting a real debate until the better players ahead of them are in. I have to imagine it's just too hard to vote for the 7th best player on the list when you've already decided not to vote for the guys ahead of them.

 

Pitching could be more interesting. Kevin Brown, David Cone, Dwight Gooden, etc...

 

That said, I'm 100% predicting the Veterans immediately elect Schilling. A bunch of rich old dudes? Most of them probably would have liked his posts if they knew how to tweet. Hell, they might even induct George W. Bush while they're at it just to make a point.

[Rob]

That’s fine but we’re also talking about inconsistent between players with very similar circumstances like Ortiz/Sosa.

 

Some will say Sosa was a borderline HOF or his peak was too short or whatever but if Ortiz is first ballot, Sosa should be in

 

To your point though, I don’t think it should matter at all. However they accumulated their numbers, they were accumulated and it’s a museum to honor the best most dominant players in baseball history. If they got caught during the testing era they will serve their suspensions as per the rules just like players that may have been caught with corked bats or using foreign substances. Or like others have mentioned been charged with violent crimes.

 

There are so many names now that aren’t in the HOF that I can no longer take it seriously as a measuring stick of the best players in baseball history.

 

Someone should create another HOF and enshrine all the current HOFers then add Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Rose, Sosa, Manny, Albert Belle, ARod etc

 

Oh yeah, the inconsistency within tiers bugs the hell out of me. Players in the same boat should be treated the same way unless there's some sort of differentiating factor.

 

As far as to whether it should matter or not, I'm still undecided to be perfectly honest. Up above I posted my pretend ballot. You'll note I still voted for A-Rod and Manny, in addition to guys like Sosa. Steroids alone wasn't enough to scare me off of any player. But I had room for all of them on my ballot because I was leaving off guys like Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, and others for reasons outside of the diamond. Even those abusers and racists, I'm okay with them getting in eventually [there's plenty of equally-vile players already in] -- but I don't want any of them profiting off the Hall of Famer label in their lifetime. I'd prefer their inductions be posthumous.

 

The ones that really drove me nuts were guys like Piazza and Bagwell that were never connected to steroids but we had to hear endless and baseless speculation of whether they were or weren't on them at the time, and writers making voting choices on gut calls. That was beyond stupid. But we're largely past that and dealing with confirmed cases nowadays -- so I wont get my knickers in a bunch either way with it so long as the voters are being consistent.