Fowler signs with Cardinals for 5/82

[Clem Fandango]

[toonsterwu]

As an aside, the Cardinals ... intrigue me. If things go well, you could see them compete for a playoff spot. You'd almost have to have all the dominoes fall in place for them to see them really dominate, but if enough things go right, sure, they are in the playoff hunt.

 

Yet, the team's fairly thin, the system's fairly weak. It's easy to see them get off to a tough start. Thing is, if they get off to a tough start and opt to sell ... I'm not sure who they can move to net them the necessary returns to cut costs while accelerating a rebuild. I mean, there's Wainwright/Molina/Carpenter. After that? Fowler/Leake would probably require the Cardinals to eat a lot. I guess they could sell some of the younger arms hitting arbitration, or move a Piscotty/Grichuk, but ideally, some of those guys are pieces you build your next team around. Moving Alemdys Diaz makes little sense for them. Hard to see how much Jhonny Peralta could net. Maybe Kolten Wong?

 

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

[d_money]

As an aside, the Cardinals ... intrigue me. If things go well, you could see them compete for a playoff spot. You'd almost have to have all the dominoes fall in place for them to see them really dominate, but if enough things go right, sure, they are in the playoff hunt.

 

Yet, the team's fairly thin, the system's fairly weak. It's easy to see them get off to a tough start. Thing is, if they get off to a tough start and opt to sell ... I'm not sure who they can move to net them the necessary returns to cut costs while accelerating a rebuild. I mean, there's Wainwright/Molina/Carpenter. After that? Fowler/Leake would probably require the Cardinals to eat a lot. I guess they could sell some of the younger arms hitting arbitration, or move a Piscotty/Grichuk, but ideally, some of those guys are pieces you build your next team around. Moving Alemdys Diaz makes little sense for them. Hard to see how much Jhonny Peralta could net. Maybe Kolten Wong?

 

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

Weren't they supposed to have some good, live arms in the minors a few years ago? Now that Martinez is on the club - what else do they have in terms of arms at the minor league level?

[Cubfanintheknow]

 

DAMN... I thought that was Heyward. Fowler has the best celebrations/reactions. That, Schwarber Dong vs Cole last season, his game 7 HR trot, etc..

 

He clearly knew it was gone off the bat. Of course we all did. That's a great photo.

That is a great photo. The ump, catcher, Ricketts in the background all tracking the flight of the ball.

 

Seeing as how everyone is still watching the flight of the ball, I think Dex knew it was gone by the sound of contact, which was probably similar to a cannon going off.

[TMan92]

Nobody has said it yet so I will....

 

Dexit

[MarkMero23]

As an aside, the Cardinals ... intrigue me. If things go well, you could see them compete for a playoff spot. You'd almost have to have all the dominoes fall in place for them to see them really dominate, but if enough things go right, sure, they are in the playoff hunt.

 

Yet, the team's fairly thin, the system's fairly weak. It's easy to see them get off to a tough start. Thing is, if they get off to a tough start and opt to sell ... I'm not sure who they can move to net them the necessary returns to cut costs while accelerating a rebuild. I mean, there's Wainwright/Molina/Carpenter. After that? Fowler/Leake would probably require the Cardinals to eat a lot. I guess they could sell some of the younger arms hitting arbitration, or move a Piscotty/Grichuk, but ideally, some of those guys are pieces you build your next team around. Moving Alemdys Diaz makes little sense for them. Hard to see how much Jhonny Peralta could net. Maybe Kolten Wong?

 

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

 

System is decent, could be really good in a year depending on their development as their best talent is in the lower levels (Delvin Perez could become a stud but he's 17).

 

Oh would probably net a nice return considering teams are loving closers now

Carpenter, Molina and depending on how good Wainwright does the first half, would all net nice returns

 

The others that would net nice returns, would be stupid to trade (Martinez, Reyes, Piscotty, Diaz) because they could be a future core. The others are just decent players but probably not getting you anything more than b-level prospects at best.

 

Cardinals team isn't really old, it's actually fairly young, but they don't have much in the way of a young core of position players. They have Wong who is okayish, Piscotty who's about a two win player, and Diaz who could be really good or his first year could've been a mirage. Not much. Their rotation could be really good with Martinez and Reyes anchoring it for the foreseeable future though. Depends if Martinez can take that next step and if Reyes can cut down the walks.

 

They're about a floor 80 wins, ceiling 90 win team.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

As an aside, the Cardinals ... intrigue me. If things go well, you could see them compete for a playoff spot. You'd almost have to have all the dominoes fall in place for them to see them really dominate, but if enough things go right, sure, they are in the playoff hunt.

 

Yet, the team's fairly thin, the system's fairly weak. It's easy to see them get off to a tough start. Thing is, if they get off to a tough start and opt to sell ... I'm not sure who they can move to net them the necessary returns to cut costs while accelerating a rebuild. I mean, there's Wainwright/Molina/Carpenter. After that? Fowler/Leake would probably require the Cardinals to eat a lot. I guess they could sell some of the younger arms hitting arbitration, or move a Piscotty/Grichuk, but ideally, some of those guys are pieces you build your next team around. Moving Alemdys Diaz makes little sense for them. Hard to see how much Jhonny Peralta could net. Maybe Kolten Wong?

 

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

Weren't they supposed to have some good, live arms in the minors a few years ago? Now that Martinez is on the club - what else do they have in terms of arms at the minor league level?

 

Alex Reyes was a top 5 prospect last year and is already in their big league rotation. Luke Weaver might be their fifth starter. They also have Jack Flaherty, Junior Fernandez and Sandy Alcantara who were in A+ or A ball last year.

[Brian]

that poor child

 

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DexterFowler/status/807643030836514816[/tweet]

[Aaron_Kennelly]

that poor child

 

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DexterFowler/status/807643030836514816[/tweet]

 

She's done something no one else in a Cardinals hat has done before: kept her car between the lines.

[Cubfanintheknow]

that poor child

 

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DexterFowler/status/807643030836514816[/tweet]

 

She's done something no one else in a Cardinals hat has done before: kept her car between the lines.

 

Hat and car come complete with a .22 breathalyzer reading.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Noooooo, this is like reverse-Edmonds!

 

it's nothing like that really

 

Maybe like a reverse Johnny Damon.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

 

No-man's land is a good description. Their problem is the same as it was last year, they have a remarkable amount of depth with decent players, but nothing in the way of star power. Last year their top fWAR-getters were Martinez at 3.3 and Carpenter at 3.2, and they're hurting Carpenter's value by moving him to 1B. For reference, the Cubs had 8 players with > 3.3 fWAR, and Contreras played a half season at a 4+ win pace too. Fowler doesn't really address the core problem either, and the FO appears to be tentative to make a decisive move that could backfire on them, which is kinda what they need if they're going to be a consistent playoff team over the next 2-3 years. Reyes and to a much lesser extent Diaz offer a little bit of hope for that starpower, but if they don't come through then they're going to be in 85 win purgatory with as good as the Cubs, Nats, Dodgers, and Giants are.

[David]

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

 

No-man's land is a good description. Their problem is the same as it was last year, they have a remarkable amount of depth with decent players, but nothing in the way of star power. Last year their top fWAR-getters were Martinez at 3.3 and Carpenter at 3.2, and they're hurting Carpenter's value by moving him to 1B. For reference, the Cubs had 8 players with > 3.3 fWAR, and Contreras played a half season at a 4+ win pace too. Fowler doesn't really address the core problem either, and the FO appears to be tentative to make a decisive move that could backfire on them, which is kinda what they need if they're going to be a consistent playoff team over the next 2-3 years. Reyes and to a much lesser extent Diaz offer a little bit of hope for that starpower, but if they don't come through then they're going to be in 85 win purgatory with as good as the Cubs, Nats, Dodgers, and Giants are.

 

I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking about how the Cardinals were still going to be right in the thick of the division race in 2017 and it was annoying me. Same kind of thing going into 2016 when the Cubs were miles better than the pack and they still had to say stuff about how the division definitely wouldn't be a cakewalk - well, it was pretty much exactly that. Is clinching with like 3 weeks left good?

 

Like they still don't realize how wide the gap is. Sure, if things went very wrong for the Cubs and very right for St. Louis, there might be some degree of drama to the race. That's about it.

 

Also maybe it's just me but I don't feel like the Giants belong in that bunch...though they are an NL team that I'd put ahead of the Cardinals.

[Clem Fandango]

FWIW

 

Derrick Goold and Ben Frederickson of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch write that the Cardinals "could become more aggressive than previously believed," with Mark Trumbo and Edwin Encarnacion as "possible pursuits."

Interesting. The report says that the Cards' reported five-year, $80 million-ish contract for Dexter Fowler "could signal a pivot" for the club that "makes them a player for other free agents." Justin Turner has also been previously linked to St. Louis as a potential corner infield option. The Cards have already committed to playing Matt Carpenter at first base next season, but it sounds like they could explore signing a first baseman and presumably moving Carpenter back to third base. Encarnacion's market in particular isn't as robust as most figured it would be, and St. Louis might consider taking advantage.

[mul21]

As an aside, the Cardinals ... intrigue me. If things go well, you could see them compete for a playoff spot. You'd almost have to have all the dominoes fall in place for them to see them really dominate, but if enough things go right, sure, they are in the playoff hunt.

 

Yet, the team's fairly thin, the system's fairly weak. It's easy to see them get off to a tough start. Thing is, if they get off to a tough start and opt to sell ... I'm not sure who they can move to net them the necessary returns to cut costs while accelerating a rebuild. I mean, there's Wainwright/Molina/Carpenter. After that? Fowler/Leake would probably require the Cardinals to eat a lot. I guess they could sell some of the younger arms hitting arbitration, or move a Piscotty/Grichuk, but ideally, some of those guys are pieces you build your next team around. Moving Alemdys Diaz makes little sense for them. Hard to see how much Jhonny Peralta could net. Maybe Kolten Wong?

 

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

 

I questioned when Luhnow left for the Astros if he wasn't the real brains behind the operation. It seems their eye for talent has diminished significantly since he left, with really only the high draft picks and Diaz to show as products of their system. They haven't had one of those middle round guys explode to have a major impact in quite a while, and they're not even getting many of those guys to fill supporting roles cheaply as they had in the past.

[d_money]

FWIW

 

Derrick Goold and Ben Frederickson of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch write that the Cardinals "could become more aggressive than previously believed," with Mark Trumbo and Edwin Encarnacion as "possible pursuits."

Interesting. The report says that the Cards' reported five-year, $80 million-ish contract for Dexter Fowler "could signal a pivot" for the club that "makes them a player for other free agents." Justin Turner has also been previously linked to St. Louis as a potential corner infield option. The Cards have already committed to playing Matt Carpenter at first base next season, but it sounds like they could explore signing a first baseman and presumably moving Carpenter back to third base. Encarnacion's market in particular isn't as robust as most figured it would be, and St. Louis might consider taking advantage.

 

Yeah, that they might be players in FA is the first thing that came to mind for me. Either Bautista and Encarnacion, both players getting totally definitely not colluded against in FA, could work for them and offer rare RH power.

They've got plenty of money to spend, they just haven't had to spend it in the past. With 10+ years of 3M or more attendance, they could easily spend they're way into the top 6-7 teams in terms of payroll.

[mul21]

This sucks just a little bit more now. I got a signed and framed Dex photo for Christmas that my dad bought before he signed with the Cards.

[toonsterwu]

As an aside, the Cardinals ... intrigue me. If things go well, you could see them compete for a playoff spot. You'd almost have to have all the dominoes fall in place for them to see them really dominate, but if enough things go right, sure, they are in the playoff hunt.

 

Yet, the team's fairly thin, the system's fairly weak. It's easy to see them get off to a tough start. Thing is, if they get off to a tough start and opt to sell ... I'm not sure who they can move to net them the necessary returns to cut costs while accelerating a rebuild. I mean, there's Wainwright/Molina/Carpenter. After that? Fowler/Leake would probably require the Cardinals to eat a lot. I guess they could sell some of the younger arms hitting arbitration, or move a Piscotty/Grichuk, but ideally, some of those guys are pieces you build your next team around. Moving Alemdys Diaz makes little sense for them. Hard to see how much Jhonny Peralta could net. Maybe Kolten Wong?

 

In short, on the surface, I tend to think they are in no man's land for an organization - good enough to be ... decent to good, not good enough to be great barring all the dominoes falling their way, but lack the minor league assets or the capability to swing trades for enough quality future assets. I'm actually mildly curious what Mozeliak plans on doing. Now, they had a good draft, IIRC, so maybe their development goes fast and the system looks far better mid-season.

 

I questioned when Luhnow left for the Astros if he wasn't the real brains behind the operation. It seems their eye for talent has diminished significantly since he left, with really only the high draft picks and Diaz to show as products of their system. They haven't had one of those middle round guys explode to have a major impact in quite a while, and they're not even getting many of those guys to fill supporting roles cheaply as they had in the past.

 

I was reading Derrick Goold's chat for the Cardinals system on BA the other day, and I was surprised at how positive he felt the system was. I think he said he felt it was a top 10 system. He did note a gap in the system and that there really aren't many top shelf guys yet. He noted Paul DeJong in there, and I'm still not sure DeJong is anything more intriguing than Christian Villanueva (different types of guys, just noting I'm not sure I'm convinced DeJong is a starter at the next level). He had a blurb in there about trading for a potential third baseman if he's put on the market ... which seemed to hint at Manny Machado. Unless Dan Duquette gets ... silly ... I'm not sure how, as of now, the heck they have the chips to make said trade without other teams swooping in and topping it. Even a headlining package involving, say, Alex Reyes, would probably only be the start.

 

Took a quick look over the Cardinals list today, and I'm just not that enamored with their guys. Maybe there's some bias here. I'm certain there are guys that I like in the Cubs system (not including cases like PJ Higgins, who just piques me interest) on skill/ability that people would look at and say, eh. Still ... I see a lot of power arms, but a lot of it seems unrefined/raw. I'm not particularly enamored with Harrison Bader, who I'm not sure is a starting OF. They have some CF depth, but don't love Bader, and I'm still not sure how excited one should be about Magneuris Sierra. Dunno ... I guess there's some pieces to dream on, but I'm just not sure there's a ton of ceiling in that system to be really superbly excited about, guys that seem unique/special despite being far away. That Arozarena kid seems like he's the hot thing, so maybe him. There is pitching depth, no doubt about it, but they need some of those top shelf guys to really step up to be interesting.

 

Dunno, will be curious to see how it unfolds.

[d_money]

I know it's been asked before, but when is the MLB gonna announce their punishment? I assume it'll include taking away draft picks. Would MLB levy a multi year or multi round draft pick fine?

[Bull]

I know it's been asked before, but when is the MLB gonna announce their punishment? I assume it'll include taking away draft picks. Would MLB levy a multi year or multi round draft pick fine?

I'm glad for them to wait a little to hand down a punishment. Let the Cubs dominate them for several years beforehand, so no one will ever get confused and say "MLB helped the Cubs by taking away cardinals draft picks."

[KrisBryantisaBeast]

I know it's been asked before, but when is the MLB gonna announce their punishment? I assume it'll include taking away draft picks. Would MLB levy a multi year or multi round draft pick fine?

I'm glad for them to wait a little to hand down a punishment. Let the Cubs dominate them for several years beforehand, so no one will ever get confused and say "MLB helped the Cubs by taking away cardinals draft picks."

 

Except no one is going to say this.

[Bull]

I know it's been asked before, but when is the MLB gonna announce their punishment? I assume it'll include taking away draft picks. Would MLB levy a multi year or multi round draft pick fine?

I'm glad for them to wait a little to hand down a punishment. Let the Cubs dominate them for several years beforehand, so no one will ever get confused and say "MLB helped the Cubs by taking away cardinals draft picks."

 

Except no one is going to say this.

Really?!?

 

Im guessing you don't know many cards fans.

 

I lived in saint louis for five years. They say all of the awful, stupid things there. They selectively remember, rewrite history and only see things through cardinal red glasses. Some of them genuinely believe the MLB told the umps to call balls strikes and strikes balls to help the Cubs win.

 

Either way cards fans will believe any punishment is a Cubs conspiracy. I just want it as far removed from the WS win as possible.

[NonProfitCow]

Really?!?

 

Im guessing you don't know many cards fans.

 

I lived in saint louis for five years. They say all of the awful, stupid things there. They selectively remember, rewrite history and only see things through cardinal red favorite team glasses. Some of them genuinely believe the MLB told the umps to call balls strikes and strikes balls to help the Cubs other team win.

 

Either way cards fans will believe any punishment is a Cubs conspiracy. I just want it as far removed from the WS win as possible.

That's just describing every fan base out there.

[Tim]

Really?!?

 

Im guessing you don't know many cards fans.

 

I lived in saint louis for five years. They say all of the awful, stupid things there. They selectively remember, rewrite history and only see things through cardinal red favorite team glasses. Some of them genuinely believe the MLB told the umps to call balls strikes and strikes balls to help the Cubs other team win.

 

Either way cards fans will believe any punishment is a Cubs conspiracy. I just want it as far removed from the WS win as possible.

That's just describing every fan base out there.

True, but Cards fans (in general) are just far more sanctimonious about it.

[Bull]

Really?!?

 

Im guessing you don't know many cards fans.

 

I lived in saint louis for five years. They say all of the awful, stupid things there. They selectively remember, rewrite history and only see things through cardinal red favorite team glasses. Some of them genuinely believe the MLB told the umps to call balls strikes and strikes balls to help the Cubs other team win.

 

Either way cards fans will believe any punishment is a Cubs conspiracy. I just want it as far removed from the WS win as possible.

That's just describing every fan base out there.

True, but Cards fans (in general) are just far more sanctimonious about it.

There is also a special paranoia with Cards fans with respect to the Cubs.