The Cardinals

[Cubswin11]

He must be the best teammate ever to jump right into talking up Molina if he didn't mean it.

Yadi probably threatens all the young guys that they need to talk him up any chance they can to heighten his sense of value and mystique.

[Bull]

 

Unless that reason he was secretly almost 40 the entire time and it doesn't matter that he's 37 and broken now, then who gives a horsefeathers.

 

How do you know he's still hurt?

 

Are all our hurt guys going to be broken when they come back of the IL too, or is this just a SSS Cardinals thing?

 

Haahahaha! Too good.

 

Kintzler, Kimbrel and Strop are obviously all still broken. So, yes?

[Sammy Sofa]

What a weird reply.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Why are the balls so sticky in St Louis

 

https://apple.news/AIvsgLs-DREOqMt0KPcy0MQ

[Bull]

What a weird reply.

More replying to the guy you were replying to. And in general agreement to the idea that it’s not unreasonable to think that someone (anyone) coming off the IL may have some residual issues. That may manifest itself in lost velocity, lack of control, or decreased use of the pitch causing the pain for pitchers or being old and slow and ugly in the case of a certain catcher.

[raisincharlie]

Cardinals fan here. I am not here to troll as I respect the Cubs and Chicago as a city.

 

This guy is off base about Molina. Molina had a great career. I've seen his entire career arc. He had a great night last night even, but the dude is nearly toast. He's nice to have back there and we have an org that waits for things to mature before making bold moves like moving on from an HOF catcher.

 

Wieters might be the net-better option, but the Cardinals really have some x-factor thing they like about Molina and his game management beyond what can be quantified. It explains their patience in younger players like Edman too.

 

Molina was a great catcher last year for a 36 year old. This year he looks and plays like he's 37. Luckily for us, Knizner is on the way and looks like a great heir.

[champaignchris]

... an HOF catcher...

 

I know it’s going to happen. I’m resigned to it. But does average bat, great glove get you in the Hall now for catchers? What’s the difference between Molina and Jason Kendall, AJ Pierzynski, Benito Santiago and a half a dozen other similar catchers who aren’t in the Hall and have no chance to? Are we lowering the bar to 30 career WAR and being a good teammate on a WS winning team?

 

Even if we assume that Molina is one of the best half-dozen defensive catchers of all time (a point I’m not conceding), he doesn’t hit nearly as well as Bench, Pudge, or Carter did. Molina is much closer offensively to the non-HoF defensive greats like Sundberg and Boone, the difference being that Molina had a slightly longer stretch of offensive adequacy.

 

I’d argue that Molina is not the best catcher of his generation. That’s Joe Mauer even when excluding the numbers he racked up when he was primarily a 1b. Or Buster Posey if you want to expand the definition of generation a bit. Molina is basically on the same level as Russell Martin, trading offense for defense.

 

I’d argue that Molina is not even the best catcher in Cardinals history. That’s Ted Simmons, who belongs in the Hall way before Molina does.

 

That said, I know Molina is going to the Hall because a bunch of sportswriters say so, without much beyond anecdotal support for their reasoning. I’ve got six or seven years to get over it. I’ll be fine.

[The SABR Gamer]

... an HOF catcher...

 

I know it’s going to happen. I’m resigned to it. But does average bat, great glove get you in the Hall now for catchers? What’s the difference between Molina and Jason Kendall, AJ Pierzynski, Benito Santiago and a half a dozen other similar catchers who aren’t in the Hall and have no chance to? Are we lowering the bar to 30 career WAR and being a good teammate on a WS winning team?

 

Even if we assume that Molina is one of the best half-dozen defensive catchers of all time (a point I’m not conceding), he doesn’t hit nearly as well as Bench, Pudge, or Carter did. Molina is much closer offensively to the non-HoF defensive greats like Sundberg and Boone, the difference being that Molina had a slightly longer stretch of offensive adequacy.

 

I’d argue that Molina is not the best catcher of his generation. That’s Joe Mauer even when excluding the numbers he racked up when he was primarily a 1b. Or Buster Posey if you want to expand the definition of generation a bit. Molina is basically on the same level as Russell Martin, trading offense for defense.

 

I’d argue that Molina is not even the best catcher in Cardinals history. That’s Ted Simmons, who belongs in the Hall way before Molina does.

 

That said, I know Molina is going to the Hall because a bunch of sportswriters say so, without much beyond anecdotal support for their reasoning. I’ve got six or seven years to get over it. I’ll be fine.

 

I hate defending Yadi, but Fangraphs added framing to their defensive WAR and he's now the #1 defensive catcher of all time in fangraphs value, and over 50 career WAR, which is 13th best in MLB history for a catcher (3rd amongst his peers, less than 2 WAR behind both McCann and Martin). That's at least close to HOF worthy to me.

 

Catcher WAR MLB History

 

ETA: Framing stats start after 2002, so historical rankings probably shift somewhat, but those guys could be hurt just as much as they are helped by it, so he likely ends up in a similar spot.

[mul21]

... an HOF catcher...

 

I know it’s going to happen. I’m resigned to it. But does average bat, great glove get you in the Hall now for catchers? What’s the difference between Molina and Jason Kendall, AJ Pierzynski, Benito Santiago and a half a dozen other similar catchers who aren’t in the Hall and have no chance to? Are we lowering the bar to 30 career WAR and being a good teammate on a WS winning team?

 

Even if we assume that Molina is one of the best half-dozen defensive catchers of all time (a point I’m not conceding), he doesn’t hit nearly as well as Bench, Pudge, or Carter did. Molina is much closer offensively to the non-HoF defensive greats like Sundberg and Boone, the difference being that Molina had a slightly longer stretch of offensive adequacy.

 

I’d argue that Molina is not the best catcher of his generation. That’s Joe Mauer even when excluding the numbers he racked up when he was primarily a 1b. Or Buster Posey if you want to expand the definition of generation a bit. Molina is basically on the same level as Russell Martin, trading offense for defense.

 

I’d argue that Molina is not even the best catcher in Cardinals history. That’s Ted Simmons, who belongs in the Hall way before Molina does.

 

That said, I know Molina is going to the Hall because a bunch of sportswriters say so, without much beyond anecdotal support for their reasoning. I’ve got six or seven years to get over it. I’ll be fine.

 

I hate defending Yadi, but Fangraphs added framing to their defensive WAR and he's now the #1 defensive catcher of all time in fangraphs value, and over 50 career WAR, which is 13th best in MLB history for a catcher (3rd amongst his peers, less than 2 WAR behind both McCann and Martin). That's at least close to HOF worthy to me.

 

Catcher WAR MLB History

 

ETA: Framing stats start after 2002, so historical rankings probably shift somewhat, but those guys could be hurt just as much as they are helped by it, so he likely ends up in a similar spot.

 

 

I'd be shocked if those don't get some revision at some point. There's no way in hell the guy added nearly 50% to his total value just from framing and there's other guys I certainly don't buy are losing as much as they did with that figured in.

[champaignchris]

I hate defending Yadi, but Fangraphs added framing to their defensive WAR and he's now the #1 defensive catcher of all time in fangraphs value, and over 50 career WAR, which is 13th best in MLB history for a catcher (3rd amongst his peers, less than 2 WAR behind both McCann and Martin). That's at least close to HOF worthy to me.

 

Catcher WAR MLB History

 

ETA: Framing stats start after 2002, so historical rankings probably shift somewhat, but those guys could be hurt just as much as they are helped by it, so he likely ends up in a similar spot.

 

So, are Russell Martin and Brian McCann Hall of Famers? McCann, in particular, is a significantly better bat whose defense has not been as highly regarded absent those framing stats.

[squally1313]

During arguably the worst stretch of the Cubs season, we want to have a discussion on Yadi's HOF credentials?

 

horsefeathers that.

 

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[Cubswin11]

The HOF is already broken and overseen by self-righteous pricks. From a “history of the game” perspective Yadi belongs in and so do a lot of guys who haven’t gotten in or won’t and I lean towards the HOF being more a history of the game/museum thing at this point than some sort of keeper of telling us who was good or not. If it was performance based I’d say he doesn’t belong.

[raisincharlie]

53+ WAR according to Fangraphs. (The real WAR)

 

2 rings and good postseason moments.

[Derwood]

53+ WAR according to Fangraphs. (The real WAR)

 

2 rings and good postseason moments.

 

You know a player who (currently) has around 44 fWAR, 2 rings and good postseason moments?

 

 

Ben Zobrist

 

 

First ballot HoF'er?

[raisincharlie]

I think defense always carries a bigger weight with catcher.

 

I wouldn't put Yadi in for awhile. Not first ballot. But if Baines is in, Yadi sure as horsefeathers is getting in.

[JudasIscariotTheBird]

53+ WAR according to Fangraphs. (The real WAR)

 

2 rings and good postseason moments.

 

You know a player who (currently) has around 44 fWAR, 2 rings and good postseason moments?

 

 

Ben Zobrist

 

 

First ballot HoF'er?

TWO TIME WORLD SERIES MVP?! HE SHOULD GET IN WITHOUT HAVING TO BE ON THE BALLOT!!!

[raisincharlie]

A lotta Cards on the wrong side of 30 - Fowler, Molina, Carpenter, Goldschmitt, Mikolas, Miller - with significant financial commitments. They could get old/bad real fast.

To be fair, we've heard this for 15+ years. "They'll get old" but we always have more coming up the pipeline despite drafting low.

 

Dylan Carlson and Nolan Gorman are top 30 level prospects. Flaherty is 23 and throwing like a top 15 pitcher now. Carlos will be in the rotation again. Jordan Hicks throws 103 and is 22. If Alex Reyes can be even half what we expected, then he will be a nice back end guy. Goldschmidt has good spray ability/exit velo and should be fine until at least the end of his contract.

 

Fowler and Carpenter are the main problems. The team is already willing to put Fowler in a 4th OF role. So he will just be an expensive backup sunk-cost. Who cares, the owner is the third richest in the league, he can eat it. They may have to pray for Carpenter to defy age cliffs like Zobrist has until Gorman is ready.

 

DeJong, Wong, Bader are all young. Edman is a great bench/role player and he's 24. Bader just needs to bat 100 wRC+ to be 3 WAR center fielder. More than doable. Gallegos has one of the better 3-year ZiPS projections of any Cardinal so he will be a good bullpen contributor. The Miller contract is nothing. And honestly, the Fowler contract is nothing--I look at it like they did Peralta's...you pay premium in years to get value in the earlier part of the deal. We're lucky he bounced back but he won't be penciled into the lineup if he's not at least hitting 108-115 wRC+. Not with his bad fielding.

 

Molina's contract is up next year and they will move him to a mostly bench role with Knizner getting shared catcher duties. They are committed to Knizner because they traded Carson Kelly, a decent catcher in his own right, because they like him so much.

[mul21]

Those are some insanely rose colored glasses you're wearing. I'm also amused by the sudden faith in the team by many after a hot streak where they beat up on garbage teams. Living here as a Cubs fan is a weird deal.

[Cubswin11]

Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

 

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).

[NonProfitCow]

Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

Martinez solely to the pen was pretty much a panic move because the pen sucked early on and was exacerbated when Hicks went down. I don't see any reason that Martinez won't be back in the rotation next year with Gallegos taking over closing duties. Reyes is a pure wildcard though, albeit with tremendous upside.

 

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).

The FSL is notoriously hard on hitters. The league average OPS is .667 to put his .723 in perspective. He's also doing it as one of, if not the youngest players in the league (turned 19 in May, league average age is 22.3) and he's expected to stay at 3b. To get an idea on his power...

[tweet]

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[raisincharlie]

Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

 

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).

1. Nolan Gorman is 19 years old.

2. Why don't you sort by all the other people his age on Fangraphs and see how they're all doing.... He is on par with Kelenic and Ramos...

3. We might not get to see what an expected K rate for him is at on-age competition until he's 25 and a 3 year MLB vet.

4. This is from another forum where I read this but, even guys like Fernando Tatis Jr. pretty consistently show promotion issues. Consider his '18 AA season. Again, small sample size (smaller than Gormans), but 3.5 BB rate and K rate near 30%, and his ISO tanked. He seems fine now! (That .410 BABIP is noteworthy, though).

[raisincharlie]

Those are some insanely rose colored glasses you're wearing. I'm also amused by the sudden faith in the team by many after a hot streak where they beat up on garbage teams.

Hey I know this is a Cubs forum but be fair! Cardinals have a .509 SOS to the Cubs's .499 SOS.

 

Cardinals build their teams to live and die by contact. That's why conventional pitching WAR stats are useless in grading the talent of a guy like Dakota Hudson who throws the ball right down the middle and Shildt fields scrappy low-hit tool defenders like Edman, Wong, DeJong, Bader to get the outs. Only the A's have a better BABIP-against/UZR ratio.

[Cubswin11]

Martinez will start again? He was moved to the pen because he isn’t healthy enough for the SP workload, Alex Reyes’s next healthy season will be his first, Hicks had TJ. Seems awfully optimistic on those guys.

Martinez solely to the pen was pretty much a panic move because the pen sucked early on and was exacerbated when Hicks went down. I don't see any reason that Martinez won't be back in the rotation next year with Gallegos taking over closing duties. Reyes is a pure wildcard though, albeit with tremendous upside.

 

I don’t get the Nolan Gorman love, he has a 33% K rate for his minor league career and is at 31% in A ball currently, he doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for average and the power just seems okay (15 Dongs in ~130 games this year).

The FSL is notoriously hard on hitters. The league average OPS is .667 to put his .723 in perspective. He's also doing it as one of, if not the youngest players in the league (turned 19 in May, league average age is 22.3) and he's expected to stay at 3b. To get an idea on his power...

[tweet]

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I thought Martinez was moved to the pen because his shoulder is fucked, there were all sorts of comments how it isn't in good enough shape to handle a regular starters workload.

 

In regards to Gorman... Eh, everyone hits for power now. That appears to be his only real tool, the swing and miss has to be a huge concern and lack of walks. He's a really intriguing prospect for sure and the age and level is a good mark for him, but I don't get the top 20-30 prospect in baseball love he's gotten.

[raisincharlie]

In regards to Gorman... Eh, everyone hits for power now. That appears to be his only real tool, the swing and miss has to be a huge concern and lack of walks. He's a really intriguing prospect for sure and the age and level is a good mark for him, but I don't get the top 20-30 prospect in baseball love he's gotten.

He's 19 with a 10% walk rate in the minors. What are you talking about? Have you seen what other people his age are doing? He blows them out of the water.

 

10/29 BB/K with a .826 OPS in his first ~700 PAs at 19 with a lot of those numbers coming in the brutal FSL is more than fine. You would be hyping any Cub with those numbers. Not to mention what scouts say about him and what he'll grow into. Wait until he’s in the Texas League and PCL...

[Transmogrified Tiger]

In regards to Gorman... Eh, everyone hits for power now. That appears to be his only real tool, the swing and miss has to be a huge concern and lack of walks. He's a really intriguing prospect for sure and the age and level is a good mark for him, but I don't get the top 20-30 prospect in baseball love he's gotten.

He's 19 with a 10% walk rate in the minors. What are you talking about? Have you seen what other people his age are doing? He blows them out of the water.

 

10/29 BB/K with a .826 OPS in his first ~700 PAs at 19 with a lot of those numbers coming in the brutal FSL is more than fine. You would be hyping any Cub with those numbers. Not to mention what scouts say about him and what he'll grow into. Wait until he’s in the Texas League and PCL...

 

Lumping together Gorman's low-A and high-A numbers is not a very useful exercise. He was good in the midwest league, especially for his age, but not overly special, certainly not blowing peers out of the water. As a point of comparison, Gorman put up a .364 wOBA on 11% BB% and 28% K rates in low-A at 19, while the Cubs have Brennan Davis who has a .403 wOBA on an 8% BB% and 19% K% in the same league at the same age, and as a CF to boot. Cubs fans are excited about Davis's potential, but no one is saying 'watch out Cards fans' about his Major League impact yet. Then if you look at what Gorman's doing in High A, it's just not very good, .337 wOBA, sub-6% BB% and 31% K%. That doesn't mean he sucks, and it's noteworthy that he's not getting completely humiliated in High A at 19, but if we're talking about the major league team we are not at all close to 1) being sure Gorman is going to make it and 2) being certain Gorman is going to be an above average/impact player at that level.

 

Also, some unsolicited advice from someone who has thousands of posts at a Cardinals message board: if all your posts are nitpicking the degrees to which the Cardinals players are better than Cub fan perception, it's not an enjoyable experience on either side. Trying to have your team be perfectly represented by rival fans is never going to happen, and then you just get associated as *that* person who is coming across as a permanent antagonist, even if you're not trolling or insulting people.