General Baseball Chit-Chat Thread

[jersey cubs fan]

It's not what I'd do -- it could be a way to counter the "why aren't you donating to the police departments who want to do a good job!?!"

 

You don't need to counter "just pay off the cops" with anything other than pointing out how stupid the idea is.

[ConstableRabbit]

It is very clear and obvious what the players are protesting.

 

 

Those people choosing to act as though it is not clear what the protest is about, are making up excuses to justify not supporting the players, because they know the players are right, or they are just willfully ignorant.

 

I had this very same conversation with somebody this past summer. He kept hammering on the idea of "what does he (kap) even want", and I kept answering. He'd hem and haw about the mixed message but would also eventually come around to realize he knew exactly what kap wanted. It was as if I had to keep reminding him he was on the verge of saying some incredibly stupid racist [expletive] before he'd back off that line. And then start right back up. It's tiresome.

I'd argue that not everyone who thinks that kneeling is offensive or disrespectful or doesn't understand the scope of what the players are protesting are like your racist friend. There's likely a spectrum in play. The point was that we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, which is unproductive.

[Sammy Sofa]

Fewer than those who think that kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. And they might get some more white players to join with a vehicle that has a lower risk for disrespecting/offending.

 

The main disconnect here seems to be that you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the people opposing the protests that their main beef is legitimately "disrespecting the anthem/troops/veterans." Personally, I think that's mostly disingenuous dog-whistling, and that's one of the main reasons to do a protest like this in the first place. Expose those people because, again, they are a huge part of what's being protested.

[littleburr24]

Something kind of baseball

 

[SouthSideRyan]

 

 

Additionally, Kaepernick has donated money and still gets the lol, you have it so rough rich boy. Give up all your money if you really have an issue, and then move far away so I don't have to see you.

 

 

Do you think Kapernick and others are only doing the protests for themselves?

 

Huh?

[ConstableRabbit]

Fewer than those who think that kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. And they might get some more white players to join with a vehicle that has a lower risk for disrespecting/offending.

 

The main disconnect here seems to be that you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the people opposing the protests that their main beef is legitimately "disrespecting the anthem/troops/veterans." Personally, I think that's mostly disingenuous dog-whistling, and that's one of the main reasons to do a protest like this in the first place. Expose those people because, again, they are a huge part of what's being protested.

There is definitely some dog-whistling going on. But we're using racism to explain away any reason why there are [EDIT: people who] think that's legitimately disrespectful. You have people who don't fully understand the extent of what's happening in this country and the players seek to draw attention to these injustices. But they're skeptical and by doing something offensive they turn off. This is generally a non-controversial issue but one that doesn't have enough attention paid to it. A very small subset of the US is watching the Philando Castile video and saying "well that guy definitely deserved to die." I would imagine the subset within the NFL is even smaller, yet white players are afraid to kneel: I'd wager that the reason is more likely that they're afraid of doing something offensive/disrespectful than racism.

Edited November 7, 2017 by ConstableRabbit

[ConstableRabbit]

Something kind of baseball

 

WTF

[jersey cubs fan]

The point was that we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, which is unproductive.

There is no baby.

 

If you choose to take offense to peaceful protest you suck.

[Sammy Sofa]

There is definitely some dog-whistling going on. But we're using racism to explain away any reason why there are think that's legitimately disrespectful.

 

Because they're wrong; the kneeling was done instead of sitting or staying off the field intentionally to SHOW respect to the troops because it was known this was going to be such a BS reason people flocked to to try and dismiss the protests. The protests had nothing to do with veterans or troops to begin with, yet they were changed specifically to actually show respect to people they had nothing to do with in the first place, so people wailing still that it's disrespectful to the troops are full of horsefeathers.

 

A very small subset of the US is watching the Philando Castile video and saying "well that guy definitely deserved to die."

 

STRONGLY disagree.

 

I would imagine the subset within the NFL is even smaller, yet white players are afraid to kneel: I'd wager that the reason is more likely that they're afraid of doing something offensive/disrespectful than racism.

 

They're afraid or don't give a horsefeathers because they're white men. There are no stakes for them in this outside of losing money, so they've chosen that over the right thing to do. Trying to cater to them to make them comfortable is backwards; this is a litmus test to see who is willing to actually step up.

[javy knows my name]

Something kind of baseball

 

 

You spelled NIGHTMARES wrong

[17 Seconds]

why is he a vampire now

[littleburr24]

why is he a vampire now

 

I'm pretty sure the dabbing is more frightening.

[cl smooth]

Something kind of baseball

 

 

You spelled NIGHTMARES wrong

 

looks like he's wearing a guy fawkes masks but nope that's sammy's new face

[ConstableRabbit]

Did it even result in any skin quality improvements? His original excuse was that the whitening was a side effect of a treatment to remove acne scars.

[imb]

holy horsefeathers "maybe if they did it nicer they would get some white players to join in"

[ConstableRabbit]

holy horsefeathers "maybe if they did it nicer they would get some white players to join in"

I’d imagine that the sentiment is more along the lines of “I’m concerned that kneeling sends conflicting messages” but hey, maybe all of them are racist.

[imb]

holy horsefeathers "maybe if they did it nicer they would get some white players to join in"

I’d imagine that the sentiment is more along the lines of “I’m concerned that kneeling sends conflicting messages” but hey, maybe all of them are racist.

 

I don't know what you think my post was talking about, but I was calling your idea that black players should protest less visibly so white people would get involved idiotic and tone-deaf

[ConstableRabbit]

holy horsefeathers "maybe if they did it nicer they would get some white players to join in"

I’d imagine that the sentiment is more along the lines of “I’m concerned that kneeling sends conflicting messages” but hey, maybe all of them are racist.

 

I don't know what you think my post was talking about, but I was calling your idea that black players should protest less visibly so white people would get involved idiotic and tone-deaf

That's an incredibly foolish and obtuse distillation of my point.

 

I wasn't suggesting that the protests should be less visible; I was responding to Tim's question on how the players could protest in a way that would be less offensive to large swaths of the population: the same population that the protesters are trying to reach. There are ways to do so, inclusive of ways that would likely get more participation from players, including more white players, who have been disturbingly absent from protests thus far. Of the guys who aren't joining the protests, there are probably a few groups:

Group 1: They're racist

Group 2: Not racist but don't think that police brutality is a problem

Group 3: Not racist and think police brutality is a problem but concerned about the optics of kneeling during the national anthem ("not worth it")

 

Group 1 is hopeless. Group 2 is likely very small but there's hope. Group 3 can be a very strong advocate -- and can be a more powerful one with a change in vehicle.

[David]

I’d imagine that the sentiment is more along the lines of “I’m concerned that kneeling sends conflicting messages” but hey, maybe all of them are racist.

 

I don't know what you think my post was talking about, but I was calling your idea that black players should protest less visibly so white people would get involved idiotic and tone-deaf

That's an incredibly foolish and obtuse distillation of my point.

 

I wasn't suggesting that the protests should be less visible; I was responding to Tim's question on how the players could protest in a way that would be less offensive to large swaths of the population: the same population that the protesters are trying to reach. There are ways to do so, inclusive of ways that would likely get more participation from players, including more white players, who have been disturbingly absent from protests thus far. Of the guys who aren't joining the protests, there are probably a few groups:

Group 1: They're racist

Group 2: Not racist but don't think that police brutality is a problem

Group 3: Not racist and think police brutality is a problem but concerned about the optics of kneeling during the national anthem ("not worth it")

 

Group 1 is hopeless. Group 2 is likely very small but there's hope. Group 3 can be a very strong advocate -- and can be a more powerful one with a change in vehicle.

 

What kind of protest could they do that wouldn't piss anybody off and make it easy enough on group 3 to participate?

 

Protests are supposed to upset people. In this case, some combination of dumb, ignorant/uninformed, and/or racist people.

[ConstableRabbit]

 

I don't know what you think my post was talking about, but I was calling your idea that black players should protest less visibly so white people would get involved idiotic and tone-deaf

That's an incredibly foolish and obtuse distillation of my point.

 

I wasn't suggesting that the protests should be less visible; I was responding to Tim's question on how the players could protest in a way that would be less offensive to large swaths of the population: the same population that the protesters are trying to reach. There are ways to do so, inclusive of ways that would likely get more participation from players, including more white players, who have been disturbingly absent from protests thus far. Of the guys who aren't joining the protests, there are probably a few groups:

Group 1: They're racist

Group 2: Not racist but don't think that police brutality is a problem

Group 3: Not racist and think police brutality is a problem but concerned about the optics of kneeling during the national anthem ("not worth it")

 

Group 1 is hopeless. Group 2 is likely very small but there's hope. Group 3 can be a very strong advocate -- and can be a more powerful one with a change in vehicle.

 

What kind of protest could they do that wouldn't piss anybody off and make it easy enough on group 3 to participate?

 

Protests are supposed to upset people. In this case, some combination of dumb, ignorant/uninformed, and/or racist people.

See above.

 

It really depends on goals. There are people who think kneeling is disrespectful/offensive, and those who do not. Then you have people who are dumb, ignorant/uninformed, and/or racist. Just about all of those people fall into the "it's offensive" bucket -- but not necessary visa-versa (i.e. I'd assume there are also some people who think that kneeling is disrespectful that can be reached/change their views).

 

However, the message is not going to get through to those people. You're not going to change hearts and minds by leading with something that disgusts them. By this standard, I think that the protests could be more effective.

 

If the goal is to piss people off (it might be!) I think they're doing a great job.

[imb]

what this whole kneeling thing has taught me is that a much smaller percentage of the population understands the point of peaceful protest.

[Sammy Sofa]

Again, the protest itself is already a concession to show respect to the troops; kneeling was started specifically to show the protests weren't directed at veterans and to show respect.

 

This is in and of itself complete bull horsefeathers; the military and veterans are a GIGANTIC part of the very core of why Kaep started doing this in the first place.

 

One of the biggest problems with the police is the increasing militarization of it, both in how they're equipped and armed, as well as who is becoming our police officers. Joining the police is a VERY common career path for those who were in the military, and since we've had two ongoing wars for almost 15 years now, you've had the police forces basically inundated with people who approach being a cop (and are often encouraged to do so) as if they're still fighting a war. This increased aggressive, violent approach has played no small part into people reacting to violent abuses of power by cops. The military and veterans, IMO, deserve NO exception from these protests, and should actually be one of the main targets.

 

Oh, and you've had hate groups and far Right types talking for decades now how infiltrating the military, local government and police forces were key approaches to keeping their ideas and rhetoric alive and to give it power. So the idea that this protest should be further tailored to show the military respect and let them off the hook is, quite frankly, abhorrent, and actually completely flies in the face of why the protests were started in the first place. It's an inoffensive protest tailored to honor people culpable in what's being protested in the first place, yet apparently it's still too "offensive" and it should be changed so that white people feel more comfortable seeing it, or maybe, only if they feel like it and aren't too scared, actually taking part.

 

The idea that this protest is over the line or that it's the protester's failing that the message has been "lost" on some is absurd.

[SouthSideRyan]

Maybe it's a product of where I grew up, but I think your Group 2 is much larger than you realize Constable.

 

Mojo, regarding directing the protest at the military, that seems like double counting to me. I agree that militarization is an issue, and ex-military taking a military approach towards policing is a big part of that, but what's the point. You're already protesting their policing, what is to be gained by protesting "the military" Their actions while enlisted aren't what's directly causing issues. You don't protest Criminal Justice majors because they wind up becoming police officers.

[Sammy Sofa]

Mojo, regarding directing the protest at the military, that seems like double counting to me. I agree that militarization is an issue, and ex-military taking a military approach towards policing is a big part of that, but what's the point. You're already protesting their policing, what is to be gained by protesting "the military" Their actions while enlisted aren't what's directly causing issues. You don't protest Criminal Justice majors because they wind up becoming police officers.

 

I'm not saying it should be focused AT them; I'm saying they're part of the problem that's being protested.

 

They don't deserve any kind of special exemption from a protest over issues that they very much at the core of, and yet they already have it with the kneeling and still people lie to themselves about how this is "offensive." They cry that this is a disrespectful act, when the military has been actively LEFT OUT of a protest and actually PAID TRIBUTE TO when they should be included as part of the problem. You can't point to the abuse by police and ignore a gigantic part of what's feeding that. Hell, if anything it's even more vital in this setting since the NFL is such a willing platform for the government and the military.

[CubColtPacer]

Maybe it's a product of where I grew up, but I think your Group 2 is much larger than you realize Constable.

 

I also think group 2 is much bigger than he realizes, but that's part of the point. That's the group that was going to complain about any form of protest. They were going to find it ridiculous and unnecessary. But they weren't going to be as deeply offended as many of them are now (that's not me, and I actually have a vested interest in the protests succeeding, but many around me feel this way). They could have been convinced eventually that there was a problem with police brutality, even if they don't now. But they are never going to change on the National Anthem issue because it's so deeply ingrained. So to take an issue they disagree with but eventually could change about and tack on another issue that they are never going to change on is a big struggle.

 

I think you see it even in some of the NFL players themselves. For example, here's a player (Kevin King of the Packers) who decided to kneel the one time:

 

"That was a tough decision. It was a tough decision. ... I haven't sat before, and it's something that's been on my mind but I didn't want to do it for different reasons, but when I heard some comments that were made recently that put it over the top. I don't know if it's something that I plan on doing every game because my grandpa is a veteran and have respect for that

 

And here's Adrian Clayborn of the Falcons:

 

"A lot of stuff needs to change, man. [Trump] has his support, and he has his people that's behind him that's continuing this crazy rhetoric that he's spilling. I want to be optimistic, but it's crazy times. I didn't [kneel], but I support my brothers 100 percent. Anytime somebody has a question for me about how I feel about it, I'm going to answer it. And the way I feel about it right now is stuff ain't right and he's just spilling all this hatred that's not doing anything positive for what's going on in this world." Clayborn stood along with the majority of his teammates.

 

So here you have two players who definitely support the protests and are willing to say it publicly, but even they are reluctant to kneel or don't want to because they know what that says to so many people. I'd have to dig them up, but I know I've heard quotes from several other NFL players the same thing: they want to protest and they support the protesters, but the Anthem is a line they don't personally want to cross.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/13965/adrian-clayborn