Cubs Fire Renteria, Hire Maddon

[JudasIscariotTheBird]

Gordon Wittenmyer @GDubCub

Maddon doesn't have lineup plotted. But is toying with the idea of hitting the pitcher 8th, he said

plzplzplzplzplz

Unless that pitcher happens to be Travis Wood, why would this be a thing we would want to have happen?

[Andy]

Gordon Wittenmyer @GDubCub

Maddon doesn't have lineup plotted. But is toying with the idea of hitting the pitcher 8th, he said

plzplzplzplzplz

Unless that pitcher happens to be Travis Wood, why would this be a thing we would want to have happen?

Because the pitcher usually only bats twice (three times if you're lucky and he and/or the offense is doing well), after which point you're probably going to have hitters available to use in the 8th spot that are better than whoever your worst hitter in the lineup that day is.

[NonProfitCow]

Gordon Wittenmyer @GDubCub

Maddon doesn't have lineup plotted. But is toying with the idea of hitting the pitcher 8th, he said

plzplzplzplzplz

Unless that pitcher happens to be Travis Wood, why would this be a thing we would want to have happen?

Statistically it's an insignificant change in run scoring. I just love that it drives meatballs crazy.

[JudasIscariotTheBird]

Gordon Wittenmyer @GDubCub

Maddon doesn't have lineup plotted. But is toying with the idea of hitting the pitcher 8th, he said

plzplzplzplzplz

Unless that pitcher happens to be Travis Wood, why would this be a thing we would want to have happen?

Because the pitcher usually only bats twice (three times if you're lucky and he and/or the offense is doing well), after which point you're probably going to have hitters available to use in the 8th spot that are better than whoever your worst hitter in the lineup that day is.

I would guess that with how often double switches happen, and how it will force you to use a man more often, this would not be enough to make up for having the pitcher batting 8th (unless he hits better than Ross or something.)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The reason batting the pitching 8th works is two-fold:

 

1) The loss you would normally see from moving an inferior hitter up in the lineup and getting an extra PA every 9 games is negated by pinch-hitting.

 

2) The 9th spot interacts with the 1-3 spots, allowing for better clustering of positive results.

 

It's an incredibly tiny effect, but it's real.

[Guest]

Gordon Wittenmyer @GDubCub

Maddon doesn't have lineup plotted. But is toying with the idea of hitting the pitcher 8th, he said

plzplzplzplzplz

Unless that pitcher happens to be Travis Wood, why would this be a thing we would want to have happen?

 

Well, NonProfitCow is a Cards fan, but nevertheless

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/is-larussa-right-to-bat-his-pitcher-in-the-eight-slot/

 

It's pretty insignificant but probably a net positive to hit the pitcher 8th.

[NOLA]

The reason batting the pitching 8th works is two-fold:

 

1) The loss you would normally see from moving an inferior hitter up in the lineup and getting an extra PA every 9 games is negated by pinch-hitting.

 

2) The 9th spot interacts with the 1-3 spots, allowing for better clustering of positive results.

 

It's an incredibly tiny effect, but it's real.

This makes sense, but what about breaking up the cluster of hitters in the 6-8 slots? Any benefit of a non-pitcher leading off an inning is negated by a pitcher coming up to bat with RISP. If your 6-7 hitters suck I can maybe understand better.

[JudasIscariotTheBird]

The reason batting the pitching 8th works is two-fold:

 

1) The loss you would normally see from moving an inferior hitter up in the lineup and getting an extra PA every 9 games is negated by pinch-hitting.

 

2) The 9th spot interacts with the 1-3 spots, allowing for better clustering of positive results.

 

It's an incredibly tiny effect, but it's real.

 

I went and checked out David's link, but I didn't see any mention of the effect of double switches. We can all agree that in most cases you want your worst hitter batting 9th (unless you really buy into the good-hitter cluster idea...but that all depends on the difference in quality of the hitters, I believe), and I could see how the effect of pinch hitting an actual hitter sooner would be a benefit, but having the pitcher in the 9th spot gives you the benefit of being able to have your starting pitcher go longer into games if you'd like (not having to pinch hit for him as soon). I would also think that some benefit of the pinch hitter batting sooner would be negated by how often double switches would happen. Your pitcher is going to be inserted into a near-random part of the line up, anyhow. ...although I suppose that is a similar effect as just pinch-hitting...whatever, I'm not going to bother thinking about it anymore since it all adds up to a lot of nothing.

[Backtobanks]

The reason batting the pitching 8th works is two-fold:

 

1) The loss you would normally see from moving an inferior hitter up in the lineup and getting an extra PA every 9 games is negated by pinch-hitting.

 

2) The 9th spot interacts with the 1-3 spots, allowing for better clustering of positive results.

 

It's an incredibly tiny effect, but it's real.

 

I have trouble believing that it would have any real effect because the pitcher would then have an effect on the 5-7 spots, plus usually anybody that would be hitting 9th probably isn't much of an offensive threat anyhow.

[Guest]

I went and checked out David's link, but I didn't see any mention of the effect of double switches. We can all agree that in most cases you want your worst hitter batting 9th (unless you really buy into the good-hitter cluster idea...but that all depends on the difference in quality of the hitters, I believe), and I could see how the effect of pinch hitting an actual hitter sooner would be a benefit, but having the pitcher in the 9th spot gives you the benefit of being able to have your starting pitcher go longer into games if you'd like (not having to pinch hit for him as soon). I would also think that some benefit of the pinch hitter batting sooner would be negated by how often double switches would happen. Your pitcher is going to be inserted into a near-random part of the line up, anyhow. ...although I suppose that is a similar effect as just pinch-hitting...whatever, I'm not going to bother thinking about it anymore since it all adds up to a lot of nothing.

 

Not sure that we can, for the reason you alluded to.

 

This is basically a summary of what The Book (Tango Tiger) said about the subject.

 

That Whole Hitting The Pitcher Eighth Thing

 

The Cardinals and Brewers have hit the pitcher eighth in the past, and it's actually a smart, albeit insignificant, strategy. Yes, giving an awful hitter more plate appearances by hitting him higher in the lineup is costly, but the benefit of having a better number nine hitter interacting with the top of the lineup is worth the trade-off, by about two runs per season. By putting a decent hitter at the bottom of the order, the top spots in the lineup will have more runners on base to advance with walks and hits and drive in with hits.

 

This strategy isn't as worthwhile in the American League, because even the worst position player will be on base significantly more often than a pitcher when the top of the order comes around. Only bat the worst hitter eighth when he's significantly worse than anybody else -- maybe someone like Adam Everett or Tony Pena Jr.

 

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17/795946/optimizing-your-lineup-by

[Banedon]

With MLB's investigation of tampering by the Cubs in the hiring of Joe Maddon presumably finally winding toward conclusion, the most likely scenario, despite the Rays' certainty there was a violation, is that no evidence will be found.

 

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/rays-to-re-emphasize-capitalizing-on-chances-under-kevin-cash/2218630

[UMFan83]

With MLB's investigation of tampering by the Cubs in the hiring of Joe Maddon presumably finally winding toward conclusion, the most likely scenario, despite the Rays' certainty there was a violation, is that no evidence will be found.

 

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/rays-to-re-emphasize-capitalizing-on-chances-under-kevin-cash/2218630

 

I saw that, and in context it seemed like the writer is just speculating.

 

I also heard on the radio they expect to conclude the investigation by Opening Day.

[UMFan83]

Apparently Manfried said the tampering investigation won't be done as they had hoped. There are still some things to go over, whatever that means.

[ctcf]

I love this man. On the Rockies deciding to also bat the pitcher 8th:

 

Patrick Mooney @CSNMooney

Maddon: “Our whole lives are one big plagiaristic moment. It’s how we decipher the info. and utilize it ourselves that makes us all unique.”

[Gmoney08]

I know it probably is fairly insignificant as well but when we have Russell, Bryant, and Baez all up (lets say they all turn out to be upgrades - I know that is a bit sunny but I still have faith in Baez being valuable at the 2B position) will batting the pitcher 8th be more beneficial then or less beneficial?

 

Essentially if are bottom of the order is one of the best 6, 7, 8's in baseball is it better at that time to have the pitcher bat 8th or is it better when you have a weaker bottom of the order?

 

 

Lets say we have the best hitting 8th best hitter in baseball, is it better to bat him 9 to cluster with 1, 2, 3 or is it better to bat him 8th (get more AB's & interact with 5, 6, 7?

[Banedon]

I love this man. On the Rockies deciding to also bat the pitcher 8th:

 

Patrick Mooney @CSNMooney

Maddon: “Our whole lives are one big plagiaristic moment. It’s how we decipher the info. and utilize it ourselves that makes us all unique.”

 

It's a lot easier to just say "It's a copycat league."

[seanimal]

I love this man. On the Rockies deciding to also bat the pitcher 8th:

 

Patrick Mooney @CSNMooney

Maddon: “Our whole lives are one big plagiaristic moment. It’s how we decipher the info. and utilize it ourselves that makes us all unique.”

 

It's a lot easier to just say "It's a copycat league."

 

that's not the same thing

[Banedon]

I love this man. On the Rockies deciding to also bat the pitcher 8th:

 

Patrick Mooney @CSNMooney

Maddon: “Our whole lives are one big plagiaristic moment. It’s how we decipher the info. and utilize it ourselves that makes us all unique.”

 

It's a lot easier to just say "It's a copycat league."

 

that's not the same thing

 

Yes, I was purposely oversimplifying it. Clearly I was hilarious.

[jersey cubs fan]

I love this man. On the Rockies deciding to also bat the pitcher 8th:

 

Patrick Mooney @CSNMooney

Maddon: “Our whole lives are one big plagiaristic moment. It’s how we decipher the info. and utilize it ourselves that makes us all unique.”

 

It's a lot easier to just say "It's a copycat league."

 

that's not the same thing

 

Yes, I was purposely oversimplifying it. Clearly I was hilarious.

I don't think that was oversimplified. It was an accurate summation.

[ctcf]

How the heck did this lead to an argument?

[Banedon]

How the heck did this lead to an argument?

 

cuz internet

[weis21]

How the heck did this lead to an argument?

What's that supposed to mean?

[SouthSideRyan]

If this is anyone but Steve Allen, you're stealing my lineup idea.

[treebird]

If this is anyone but Steve Allen, you're stealing my lineup idea.

nice

[seanimal]

I love this man. On the Rockies deciding to also bat the pitcher 8th:

 

Patrick Mooney @CSNMooney

Maddon: “Our whole lives are one big plagiaristic moment. It’s how we decipher the info. and utilize it ourselves that makes us all unique.”

 

It's a lot easier to just say "It's a copycat league."

 

that's not the same thing

 

Yes, I was purposely oversimplifying it. Clearly I was hilarious.

 

i'm going to have to disagree sir