2013-2014 Chicago Bulls Thread

[USSoccer]

Please let the next argument be "count the rings"...

[Ryne Ween]

He came into the league undrafted and didnt play for a few years. When he got to the pistons he established himself as an elite rebounder and shotblockers and the best defensive player in that era, and among the best of all time. With 4 DPOY awards and a handfull of all-nba teams, he very well might get into the hall. Noah is a great player, but not on Wallace's level. You guys probably were not watching basketball during his prime. He guarded multiple positions and averaged something like 3block/2stl a game. He was universally considered the best defensive player in the game for like a decade.

 

What decade was this?

 

He had a stretch where he won 4 out of 5 DPOYs From 2001-2006. Assumign he was still prettty good at defense a year or two before and after you get to about ten years.

[Guest]

I forget...are we talking about Rodman? Because that's what it sounds like.

[Banedon]

I forget...are we talking about Rodman? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

Rodman is in the HOF.

[Guest]

I forget...are we talking about Rodman? Because that's what it sounds like.

 

Rodman is in the HOF.

Sorry for the shorthand, my point was ambiguous.

 

If you're trying to get a handle on the value of Ben Wallace, Rodman seems like the best comp. The fact that Rodman made the hall leads me to believe that Wallace will at least "be in the discussion".

 

To me, Wallace wasn't as good as Rodman at the things they were good at. He also wasn't good for as long as Rodman. But I'll be a bit surprised if he isn't even discussed for the hall.

[Ryne Ween]

Rodman was a better rebounder but Wallace was a better man and team defender. Rodman was a great defender obviously as well. But offensively neither was good. Which is not really important because NBA teams do not use 5 guys on offensive possessions. Anchoring an elite defense makes you much more valuable than being able to contribute offensively.

[Guest]

Rodman was a better rebounder but Wallace was a better man and team defender. Rodman was a great defender obviously as well. But offensively neither was good. Which is not really important because NBA teams do not use 5 guys on offensive possessions. Anchoring an elite defense makes you much more valuable than being able to contribute offensively.

 

Its clear that maybe you guys dont understand how basketball works.

I think if you understood it that well, you would have used Rodman to make your case about Wallace in the first place.

[WrigleyField 22]

I can get the argument about having too short of a peak, but his defense and rebounding at peak was certainly enough to bring him up in HOF discussions.

 

Offensively he was dreadful at scoring. Offensive rebounds he is actually comparable to Noah, and both are quite good in that area. Wallace was a very good passer and save for 2014 who has seen his AST rate skyrocket 10% Noah and him are pretty comparable there. Wallace owns Noah as a defensive rebounder and they're pretty comparable as overall defenders. Wallace has an edge as both shot blocker and at steals.

 

Noah, as much as he's not really a scorer still edges Wallace by a bit.

 

Ultimately I don't think Wallace is a HOF but he has a HOF type peak. It was short though and when you take a relatively one way player and compound a short peak it really hurts your chances. You can get away being one sided with a long enough peak. Likewise a short peak could still get you in if you're a more well rounded player. Final verdict he isn't a HOF, but shouldn't be laughed out, especially when you look at the less advanced metrics that tend to affect HOF voting, mainly DPOY and a ring.

[Ryne Ween]

Rodman was a better rebounder but Wallace was a better man and team defender. Rodman was a great defender obviously as well. But offensively neither was good. Which is not really important because NBA teams do not use 5 guys on offensive possessions. Anchoring an elite defense makes you much more valuable than being able to contribute offensively.

 

Its clear that maybe you guys dont understand how basketball works.

I think if you understood it that well, you would have used Rodman to make your case about Wallace in the first place.

 

Oh but as a Chicagoan and bulls fan I was actually able to remember Dennis Rodman as well.

[Ryne Ween]

Final verdict he isn't a HOF, but shouldn't be laughed out, especially when you look at the less advanced metrics that tend to affect HOF voting, mainly DPOY and a ring.

 

 

You can make an win share argument over a ton of guys in the Hall as well. And as for short peaks Ralph Sampson was recently inducted.

[Sammy Sofa]

He came into the league undrafted and didnt play for a few years. When he got to the pistons he established himself as an elite rebounder and shotblockers and the best defensive player in that era, and among the best of all time. With 4 DPOY awards and a handfull of all-nba teams, he very well might get into the hall. Noah is a great player, but not on Wallace's level. You guys probably were not watching basketball during his prime. He guarded multiple positions and averaged something like 3block/2stl a game. He was universally considered the best defensive player in the game for like a decade.

 

What decade was this?

 

Lousy Smarch weather...

[Rex Buckingham]

Rodman was a better rebounder but Wallace was a better man and team defender. Rodman was a great defender obviously as well. But offensively neither was good. Which is not really important because NBA teams do not use 5 guys on offensive possessions. Anchoring an elite defense makes you much more valuable than being able to contribute offensively.

 

Its clear that maybe you guys dont understand how basketball works.

I think if you understood it that well, you would have used Rodman to make your case about Wallace in the first place.

 

Oh but as a Chicagoan and bulls fan I was actually able to remember Dennis Rodman as well.

 

Then you should also realize that when he was younger Rodman also happened to help defend MJ. Ben Wallace couldn't have defended MJ in his dreams

[Ryne Ween]

Then you should also realize that when he was younger Rodman also happened to help defend MJ. Ben Wallace couldn't have defended MJ in his dreams

 

Ya ok dude i was only 2 when that happened but my guess is that 190lbs Rodman from the late 80s would have had some problems with prime Shaq in the low block.

[USSoccer]

Then you should also realize that when he was younger Rodman also happened to help defend MJ. Ben Wallace couldn't have defended MJ in his dreams

 

Ya ok dude i was only 2 when that happened but my guess is that 190lbs Rodman from the late 80s would have had some problems with prime Shaq in the low block.

 

George Mikan was a good player, but he could never have checked Tim Duncan amirite?

[Ryne Ween]

Then you should also realize that when he was younger Rodman also happened to help defend MJ. Ben Wallace couldn't have defended MJ in his dreams

 

Ya ok dude i was only 2 when that happened but my guess is that 190lbs Rodman from the late 80s would have had some problems with prime Shaq in the low block.

 

George Mikan was a good player, but he could never have checked Tim Duncan amirite?

 

About the same comparison as Wallace defending jordan in 1989 good call.

[Banedon]

@JoakimNoah

 

I shot a 3 in practice today.... Thibs started hatin though

[Ryne Ween]

Nate silver’s thing has a thing about how steals are worth the equivalent of 9 points. I disagree with the argument because Its exaggerated and leads him to an absurd conclusion but it’s interesting.

[illiniguy]

@JoakimNoah

 

I shot a 3 in practice today.... Thibs started hatin though

Noah is so awesome.

[dcvalpo]

 

Its clear that maybe you guys dont understand how basketball works.

 

Look, if you were arguing with a Derwood, or say an OMC, I'd understand this comment. But Tim knows his stuff.

Edited March 27, 2014 by dcvalpo

[dcvalpo]

I was happy with the Tyrus Thomas trade because I though Vic Kryapa was gonna be good.

 

Its clear that maybe you dont understand how basketball works.

[Ryne Ween]

I dont think i directed that at Tim who more or less agreed with the premise of the Ben Wallace HOF thing. That comment was probably directed at whoever was using a couple PPG gave Noah an edge over Ben Wallace over an arbitrary selection of years. And yea, I shouldnt be inflammatory like that but of course anybody who thinks Noah is better than Wallace was is flat out wrong. And yes, we will probably get into the HOF.

[SpongeWorthy]

Do you have a spectrum disorder?

[Ryne Ween]

Do you have a spectrum disorder?

 

 

Im perscribed a few things, yes./

[apete6]

Not gonna lie, if you told me when I woke up that I would read an argument about Ben Wallace's HOF candidacy, I wouldn't have believed you.

[WrigleyField 22]

HOF or not, Ben Wallace is not the worst Noah comparison for his career to date. A bit more balanced, but I'm not sure you can get a better Noah comp without prefixing with "Poor man's".