Cubs sign Scott Feldman

[Hairyducked Idiot]

that's 10 [expletive] wins! basically our whole entire foundation is essentially worth one [expletive] Mike Trout*!

 

So you're a quarter of the way there with 16% of your roster and 3% of your payroll.

 

You're welcome for that start, Jed.

 

h...in the first few months of their tenure, Theo & co. should have shrewded their way into a good 30 extra wins; i see what you're saying

 

I would have settled for 15, so we didn't need the whole 30 again this offseason.

[sneakypower]

Kyle is strolling through New Jersey right now, asking "why hasn't this been cleaned up yet?"

 

You're doing a helluva job, Theo-ie.

yes, he's either Randy Smith, or Branch Rickey; that you're framing these two opinions as the only possible conclusions speaks volumes about your inability to reason and use nuance

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Kyle is strolling through New Jersey right now, asking "why hasn't this been cleaned up yet?"

 

You're doing a helluva job, Theo-ie.

yes, he's either Randy Smith, or Branch Rickey; that you're framing these two opinions as the only possible conclusions speaks volumes about your inability to reason and use nuance

 

What does the fact that you think playoff teams cost $200 million say about you?

[pccubfan]

The entire exercise is absurd. If teams really had to pay $5 million for every WAR, then playoff teams should cost $200 million or more. But they don't. Because good front offices can build teams with less than that.

 

If ours can't, then they aren't good.

 

Not necessarily. The teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland who contend with small payrolls have been at work, building their foundations for years. Epstein and Co. came into a massive, graffiti covered, piss-stained colosus and are tearing it down, and at the same time attempting to build something similar to what those teams have in it's place. I'm not saying that this is what the Cubs need to do, but if you're looking it at it from that point of view, the Cubs are essentially the Devil Rays of the early/mid '00s. Long way to go. The difference is, once we do get there, we have a lot more cash to supplement the home grown assets.

 

That isn't the only difference but I'll leave it up to you to figure that out.

[sneakypower]

yes, he's either Randy Smith, or Branch Rickey; that you're framing these two opinions as the only possible conclusions speaks volumes about your inability to reason and use nuance

 

What does the fact that you think playoff teams cost $200 million say about you?

it says that i made a statement specifically speaking to the state of the 2013 Cubs roster which you for some insane reason wildly extrapolated into a general statement regarding all teams operating under different restraints, only God knows why

[XZero771679666304]

The entire exercise is absurd. If teams really had to pay $5 million for every WAR, then playoff teams should cost $200 million or more. But they don't. Because good front offices can build teams with less than that.

If ours can't, then they aren't good.

Well a big reason there is teams being able to draft and develop impact guys who compile high WAR for low initial costs. The Cubs don't have a whole lot of those, but are trying to get them.

 

Guys like Starlin Castro, Darwin Barney, Jeff Samardzija, Welington Castillo?

{b]that's 10 [expletive] wins! basically our whole entire foundation is essentially worth one [expletive] Mike Trout*![/b]

 

And that's not the only reason. Smart teams can find marginal wins at much below market race elsewhere, too.

ah...in the first few months of their tenure, Theo & co. should have shrewded their way into a good 30 extra wins; i see what you're saying

 

*or 2.5 Jon Jays/David Freeses (who both outproduced the best player on our team last year)

 

Truly, Hendry left a treasure trove for Theo and Jed to build upon. One star, a middle infielder whose value may or may not have been a defensive metric fluke, a pitcher with talent but no consistency (prior to 2012) and a decent catching prospect. And don't forget the coin flip of a top prospect and Javier Baez, who is years away. Never mind the total absence of minor league pitching talent, it isn't important in light of the aforementioned glut of talent.

 

And of course we know Hendry would have made all the same trades to infuse the system with young talent (since he did such an admirable job of that in the past), so let's not give the FO credit for that.

[Guest]

Kyle is strolling through New Jersey right now, asking "why hasn't this been cleaned up yet?"

 

You're doing a helluva job, Theo-ie.

yes, he's either Randy Smith, or Branch Rickey; that you're framing these two opinions as the only possible conclusions speaks volumes about your inability to reason and use nuance

 

What does the fact that you think playoff teams cost $200 million say about you?

 

Playoff teams with 2-3 real cost controlled assets and 2 meh ones might.

 

(Although you shouldn't count Rizzo, since we're talking about what Hendry left them to work with)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

it says that i made a statement specifically speaking to the state of the 2013 Cubs roster which you for some insane reason wildly extrapolated into a general statement regarding all teams operating under different restraints, only God knows why

 

The statement was silly and absurd in itself. It didn't me to change anything about it.

 

The only things Theo inherited were people who played for the Cubs in 2012, and their 2012 WAR is what they will do in 2013.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Playoff teams with 2-3 real cost controlled assets and 2 meh ones might.

 

(Although you shouldn't count Rizzo, since we're talking about what Hendry left them to work with)

 

So we're back to the point where Theo and Jed mind-controlled the Padres into giving us Rizzo for a completely worthless asset?

[Guest]

Playoff teams with 2-3 real cost controlled assets and 2 meh ones might.

 

(Although you shouldn't count Rizzo, since we're talking about what Hendry left them to work with)

 

So we're back to the point where Theo and Jed mind-controlled the Padres into giving us Rizzo for a completely worthless asset?

 

No. Go ahead and throw the effective reliever into the mix.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Truly, Hendry left a treasure trove for Theo and Jed to build upon. One star, a middle infielder whose value may or may not have been a defensive metric fluke, a pitcher with talent but no consistency (prior to 2012) and a decent catching prospect. And don't forget the coin flip of a top prospect and Javier Baez, who is years away. Never mind the total absence of minor league pitching talent, it isn't important in light of the aforementioned glut of talent.

 

They were also given empty payroll space larger than most teams in the division's entire payroll to try to fix these problems.

 

And of course we know Hendry would have made all the same trades to infuse the system with young talent (since he did such an admirable job of that in the past), so let's not give the FO credit for that.

 

They get credit for the improvements in the minor leagues. They get the blame for the abysmal state of the MLB roster.

[Tracer Bullet]

SP with a flurry of haymakers this round.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Playoff teams with 2-3 real cost controlled assets and 2 meh ones might.

 

(Although you shouldn't count Rizzo, since we're talking about what Hendry left them to work with)

 

So we're back to the point where Theo and Jed mind-controlled the Padres into giving us Rizzo for a completely worthless asset?

 

No. Go ahead and throw the effective reliever into the mix.

 

So we've got an entire middle infield, a catcher, a LFer, a couple of good middle relievers, two starting pitchers and $80 million+ to work with.

 

If that's not enough, you hired the wrong guy.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

SP with a flurry of haymakers this round.

 

Yeah, if I tried to make arguments anywhere near as bad as the ones he's putting forth (33 wins would have cost $150 MILLION!!!), you'd be all over it.

 

He's losing, badly.

[Tryptamine]

Playoff teams with 2-3 real cost controlled assets and 2 meh ones might.

 

(Although you shouldn't count Rizzo, since we're talking about what Hendry left them to work with)

 

So we're back to the point where Theo and Jed mind-controlled the Padres into giving us Rizzo for a completely worthless asset?

 

Why is it always extremes with you? No one claimed anything like you said, but Theo was smart enough to find a buy low opportunity on a guy with lots of upsides. He was smart enough to shop a guy who someone saw as a front of the rotation starter when the reality is that he was a bullpen guy whose arm couldn't hold up as a starter.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Why is it always extremes with you? No one claimed anything like you said, but Theo was smart enough to find a buy low opportunity on a guy with lots of upsides. He was smart enough to shop a guy who someone saw as a front of the rotation starter when the reality is that he was a bullpen guy whose arm couldn't hold up as a starter.

 

It's not me who is putting forward the extreme here. The opposing argument is that the Cubs' current front office took over a team so incredibly awful that there was no point in even trying to field a competitive baseball team and therefore they cannot be blamed when it went incredibly, incredibly wrong.

 

I'm not the one saying that the only relevant information about what they inherited is the 2012 fWAR of players who were on the Cubs in 2011 and project to be in 2013.

 

The Rizzo trade proves my point: You don't need to pay $5 million per win. You can find them if you make smart decisions. They made some, they could have made more.

[sneakypower]

it says that i made a statement specifically speaking to the state of the 2013 Cubs roster which you for some insane reason wildly extrapolated into a general statement regarding all teams operating under different restraints, only God knows why

 

The statement was silly and absurd in itself. It didn't me to change anything about it.

 

The only things Theo inherited were people who played for the Cubs in 2012, and their 2012 WAR is what they will do in 2013.

i thought i was being kind! we don't actually project Soriano and Barney to repeat their '12s

 

when WAR projections come out we'll see that the difference is largely indistinguishable and too negligible to really even care about

[pccubfan]

The entire exercise is absurd. If teams really had to pay $5 million for every WAR, then playoff teams should cost $200 million or more. But they don't. Because good front offices can build teams with less than that.

If ours can't, then they aren't good.

Well a big reason there is teams being able to draft and develop impact guys who compile high WAR for low initial costs. The Cubs don't have a whole lot of those, but are trying to get them.

 

Guys like Starlin Castro, Darwin Barney, Jeff Samardzija, Welington Castillo?

{b]that's 10 [expletive] wins! basically our whole entire foundation is essentially worth one [expletive] Mike Trout*![/b]

 

And that's not the only reason. Smart teams can find marginal wins at much below market race elsewhere, too.

ah...in the first few months of their tenure, Theo & co. should have shrewded their way into a good 30 extra wins; i see what you're saying

 

*or 2.5 Jon Jays/David Freeses (who both outproduced the best player on our team last year)

 

Truly, Hendry left a treasure trove for Theo and Jed to build upon. One star, a middle infielder whose value may or may not have been a defensive metric fluke, a pitcher with talent but no consistency (prior to 2012) and a decent catching prospect. And don't forget the coin flip of a top prospect and Javier Baez, who is years away. Never mind the total absence of minor league pitching talent, it isn't important in light of the aforementioned glut of talent.

 

And of course we know Hendry would have made all the same trades to infuse the system with young talent (since he did such an admirable job of that in the past), so let's not give the FO credit for that.

 

Hendry no doubt left the Cubs in terrible shape. It just seems odd to me that Theo's moves seem above reproach because of the low bar Hendry set. I don't care how bad the organization was when Hendry left it is unfathomable that the Cubs shouldn't be expected to compete in Theo's fourth year running the show.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

it says that i made a statement specifically speaking to the state of the 2013 Cubs roster which you for some insane reason wildly extrapolated into a general statement regarding all teams operating under different restraints, only God knows why

 

The statement was silly and absurd in itself. It didn't me to change anything about it.

 

The only things Theo inherited were people who played for the Cubs in 2012, and their 2012 WAR is what they will do in 2013.

i thought i was being kind! we don't actually project Soriano and Barney to repeat their '12s

 

when WAR projections come out we'll see that the difference is largely indistinguishable and too negligible to really even care about

 

That's partially true (although maybe Castro will live up to his Trout-esque talent this coming season).

 

But it also ignores that a lot of the assets he inherited were either mishandled (Garza, Colvin) or severely depreciated (Jackson) in 2012.

 

And most importantly, it ignores money. He inherited a crap-ton of money.

[Guest]

Hendry no doubt left the Cubs in terrible shape. It just seems odd to me that Theo's moves seem above reproach because of the low bar Hendry set. I don't care how bad the organization was when Hendry left it is unfathomable that the Cubs shouldn't be expected to compete in Theo's fourth year running the show.

 

Is there a single person here arguing otherwise?

[Guest]

From Mooney - Hoyer says #Cubs targeted Feldman/Baker but will keep looking - it's too early in offseason to rule out multiyear deal for rotation.

[Tryptamine]

Why is it always extremes with you? No one claimed anything like you said, but Theo was smart enough to find a buy low opportunity on a guy with lots of upsides. He was smart enough to shop a guy who someone saw as a front of the rotation starter when the reality is that he was a bullpen guy whose arm couldn't hold up as a starter.

 

It's not me who is putting forward the extreme here. The opposing argument is that the Cubs' current front office took over a team so incredibly awful that there was no point in even trying to field a competitive baseball team and therefore they cannot be blamed when it went incredibly, incredibly wrong.

 

I'm not the one saying that the only relevant information about what they inherited is the 2012 fWAR of players who were on the Cubs in 2011 and project to be in 2013.

 

The Rizzo trade proves my point: You don't need to pay $5 million per win. You can find them if you make smart decisions. They made some, they could have made more.

 

Trades like the Rizzo deal aren't available everywhere. It's not fair to expect him to find all these trades that vastly improve the team's value in one full year. At the same time, Theo probably didn't think it was worth adding significant payroll to try and make the Cubs contender in 2012. They only had one more year of Demp, Sori was coming off an absolutely wretched year etc etc. He most likely didn't think the odds of the team being competitive warranted tying down payroll flexibility.

[XZero771679666304]

Kyle is strolling through New Jersey right now, asking "why hasn't this been cleaned up yet?"

 

You're doing a helluva job, Theo-ie.

yes, he's either Randy Smith, or Branch Rickey; that you're framing these two opinions as the only possible conclusions speaks volumes about your inability to reason and use nuance

 

What does the fact that you think playoff teams cost $200 million say about you?

 

Playoff teams with 2-3 real cost controlled assets and 2 meh ones might.

 

(Although you shouldn't count Rizzo, since we're talking about what Hendry left them to work with)

 

Yeah, teams with good front offices don't have to spend $200MM to make the playoffs because they typically have done a good job of filling roster holes and stocking the cupboards with cheap yet effective talent to build around (what the Cubs have had next to none of for years because of a flawed organizational philosophy). But you don't get to that point quickly unless you do what Theo and Jed are doing. The "draft and develop well" road to organizational depth isn't a short one when you start nearly from zero, especially under the new CBA.

 

The trying to plug 5-7 full time positions, 2-3 rotation slots and most of the bullpen with free agents approach to contention, even if done shrewdly, isn't the recipe for success, and it's why Hendry got fired.

 

 

Of course Kyle continually refuses to acknowledge that there was practically nothing to build around, and I don't expect him to change his rhetoric now.

[pccubfan]

Hendry no doubt left the Cubs in terrible shape. It just seems odd to me that Theo's moves seem above reproach because of the low bar Hendry set. I don't care how bad the organization was when Hendry left it is unfathomable that the Cubs shouldn't be expected to compete in Theo's fourth year running the show.

 

Is there a single person here arguing otherwise?

 

I'm not sure. I asked how long it should take to rebuild a big market team but no one replied.

 

Toon made a statement that he hoped the Cubs could compete in 2015 but things would all have to go right for that to happen. I really didn't see anyone address that point. Instead, it seems that we're having a battle between things are going great vs. we've fallen off the organizational cliff.

[XZero771679666304]

Hendry no doubt left the Cubs in terrible shape. It just seems odd to me that Theo's moves seem above reproach because of the low bar Hendry set. I don't care how bad the organization was when Hendry left it is unfathomable that the Cubs shouldn't be expected to compete in Theo's fourth year running the show.

 

Is there a single person here arguing otherwise?

 

toonster is the only one I can think of.