Dayton Ohio's Tony Campana

[Backtobanks]

Honestly, given how far above expectations Barney has performed, I'd like to see if anyone would be interested in buying high on him. I'm more comfortable with LeMahieu if the cubs feel his defense is adequate.

 

I'm not sure anyone would be willing to buy high on him at this point. Also, let's not give the job to LeMahieu just because he has a higher ceiling.

[dew1679666265]

Honestly, given how far above expectations Barney has performed, I'd like to see if anyone would be interested in buying high on him. I'm more comfortable with LeMahieu if the cubs feel his defense is adequate.

 

I'm not sure anyone would be willing to buy high on him at this point. Also, let's not give the job to LeMahieu just because he has a higher ceiling.

 

I'd much rather give LeMahieu a chance to establish himself now since he's up rather than keep him on the bench in favor of a guy with a low ceiling like Barney. Barney's a nice player to have around and had a really nice start, but he's cooling down and LeMahieu could be a real plus starting long term.

[Vinestal]

The guy is batting .314 with 24 RBI. He's been one of the most solid offensive players on the team. I think his numbers speak for themselves. I don't know why I keep getting drawn into these threads. Gotta stop reading the crap from people who think they know everything.

[imb]

please refer to him as dayton ohio's tony campana

 

The Dayton Swim Club is proud to announce Tony Campana Tuesdays!

[dew1679666265]

The guy is batting .314 with 24 RBI. He's been one of the most solid offensive players on the team. I think his numbers speak for themselves. I don't know why I keep getting drawn into these threads. Gotta stop reading the crap from people who think they know everything.

 

Ever since he got off to a hot start to begin the year, I've been a supporter of Barney. I don't dislike him and I was fine with him starting at second to start the year. However, he's a guy who didn't hit much in the minors and so far he's been a better fielding Ryan Theriot - no patience, no power, all production is via singles. That's perfectly fine production at second base as long as he's cheap, but LeMahieu has the potential to be so much more than Barney ever has been.

 

If the decision is between two cheap Cubs minor leaguers, I'll prefer the guy who hit very well in the minors and has the potential to be a good to very good offensive second baseman over Ryan Theriot with better defense. Barney's best role in the future for the Cubs will be as a solid pinch hitter with good defensive versatility. You're not getting the best value for him if you're trying to force him into the starting lineup.

[Backtobanks]

My point is that minor league numbers don't always translate in ML success (especially for the Cubs). Players like Barney (and Theriot) are role players. You can't have a superstar at every position unless you are the Yankees and are willing to have their payroll.

[Bryants Disco Ball]

Dayton Ohio's Tony Campana grounded out to second base for a single. Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot.

 

Oh, and then he stole two bases and produced a run all by himself.

[NCCubFan]

Dayton Ohio's Tony Campana now has three SBs today.

[Guest]

Honestly, given how far above expectations Barney has performed, I'd like to see if anyone would be interested in buying high on him. I'm more comfortable with LeMahieu if the cubs feel his defense is adequate.

 

Or even Flaherty (who I would have promoted instead of LeMahieu).

[Bryants Disco Ball]

Dayton Ohio's Tony Campana now has four stolen bases today.

[dew1679666265]

My point is that minor league numbers don't always translate in ML success (especially for the Cubs). Players like Barney (and Theriot) are role players. You can't have a superstar at every position unless you are the Yankees and are willing to have their payroll.

 

I don't understand, should we not try LeMahieu at second because Barney is a role player and we don't have the Yankees' payroll? LeMahieu is going to be cheap for quite some time and has the ceiling to outproduce Barney by a pretty wide margin. If both hit their ceilings, LeMahieu will be the far more productive player. I don't think we should pass that up because in 4-5 years LeMahieu will be paid a lot more than Barney (if both hit their ceilings). Or am I misunderstanding your point?

 

As for minor league numbers not translating - it's not like we're talking about an unproven rookie (LeMahieu) and a reliable, consistent veteran (Barney). Both are rookies and both are very unproven. Barney has more time in the majors and in that time he had a very productive month (.803 OPS in March/April) and a bad month (.647 OPS in May) and was awful in 30 games last year. Barney's no shoe-in to be productive at this point and doesn't have a lengthy track record to support passing on a guy who has a much higher ceiling for certainty of production. If I've got two players who have proven little to nothing in the majors, I'll take the guy with the far superior minor league numbers every time - and that player is LeMahieu.

Edited May 30, 2011 by dew

[dew1679666265]

Dayton Ohio's Tony Campana now has four stolen bases today.

 

I love seeing this. If we're going to make a splash in free agency, we need cheap role players who can provide value at the ML level and Campana has gotten off to a good start at being one of those players.

[TruffleShuffle]

Honestly, given how far above expectations Barney has performed, I'd like to see if anyone would be interested in buying high on him. I'm more comfortable with LeMahieu if the cubs feel his defense is adequate.

 

don't you think other teams would find it a bit odd that the cubs are looking to trade a productive young rookie when their season is in the toilet? even if the other teams in mlb have complete morons as GMs, the cubs shopping the type of guy they would theoretically be keeping would look pretty strange.

[Rob]

The guy is batting .314 with 24 RBI. He's been one of the most solid offensive players on the team. I think his numbers speak for themselves. I don't know why I keep getting drawn into these threads. Gotta stop reading the crap from people who think they know everything.

 

3.5%

3.2%

 

The top number is Darwin Barney's BB% this season. The bottom number is notably hacktastic and much-maligned Shawon Dunston's career average BB%. If Barney isn't capable of supporting that .331 BABIP he's sporting right now (and he probably isn't), his lack of walks and his lack of power are going to tank his offensive value in a hurry. And that's without even getting into the fact that RBI are a meaningless stat.

 

Don't take this post to mean that I don't like Darwin Barney. Believe it or not, I see his potential as a valuable role player. But make no mistake... if he's going to have value, it'll be coming from his glove. Not his bat.

 

To tie that in with the rest of the thread, that's about how I feel about Campana too. If we stick him at the bottom of the order and never let him bat in crucial situations, he could provide some real value as a fielder and runner. Not a star, obviously... but a decent enough reserve guy.

[Backtobanks]

My point is that minor league numbers don't always translate in ML success (especially for the Cubs). Players like Barney (and Theriot) are role players. You can't have a superstar at every position unless you are the Yankees and are willing to have their payroll.

 

I don't understand, should we not try LeMahieu at second because Barney is a role player and we don't have the Yankees' payroll? LeMahieu is going to be cheap for quite some time and has the ceiling to outproduce Barney by a pretty wide margin. If both hit their ceilings, LeMahieu will be the far more productive player. I don't think we should pass that up because in 4-5 years LeMahieu will be paid a lot more than Barney (if both hit their ceilings). Or am I misunderstanding your point?

 

As for minor league numbers not translating - it's not like we're talking about an unproven rookie (LeMahieu) and a reliable, consistent veteran (Barney). Both are rookies and both are very unproven. Barney has more time in the majors and in that time he had a very productive month (.803 OPS in March/April) and a bad month (.647 OPS in May) and was awful in 30 games last year. Barney's no shoe-in to be productive at this point and doesn't have a lengthy track record to support passing on a guy who has a much higher ceiling for certainty of production. If I've got two players who have proven little to nothing in the majors, I'll take the guy with the far superior minor league numbers every time - and that player is LeMahieu.

 

All that I'm saying is that Barney hasn't done anything to be benched in favor of an unproven rookie. If he continues to slump badly or later in the season when the Cubs raise the white flag, then give LeMahieu an extended look.

[XZero771679666304]

The guy is batting .314 with 24 RBI. He's been one of the most solid offensive players on the team. I think his numbers speak for themselves. I don't know why I keep getting drawn into these threads. Gotta stop reading the crap from people who think they know everything.

 

3.5%

3.2%

 

The top number is Darwin Barney's BB% this season. The bottom number is notably hacktastic and much-maligned Shawon Dunston's career average BB%. If Barney isn't capable of supporting that .331 BABIP he's sporting right now (and he probably isn't), his lack of walks and his lack of power are going to tank his offensive value in a hurry. And that's without even getting into the fact that RBI are a meaningless stat.

 

Don't take this post to mean that I don't like Darwin Barney. Believe it or not, I see his potential as a valuable role player. But make no mistake... if he's going to have value, it'll be coming from his glove. Not his bat.

 

To tie that in with the rest of the thread, that's about how I feel about Campana too. If we stick him at the bottom of the order and never let him bat in crucial situations, he could provide some real value as a fielder and runner. Not a star, obviously... but a decent enough reserve guy.

 

For a guy who can't slug, AVG takes a back seat to OBP and like you said, RBI is a worthless, context dependent stat. He doesn't walk and he doesn't hit for any power, so he has to hit for high average to have any offensive value. That said, he hasn't hit .300 or better in any full pros season thus far. Combine that with his babip, it doesn't inspire confidence for his future.

 

I like Darwin Barney, but every indication is that he won't be able to sustain what he has done so far, as he has been decidedly pedestrian for his entire pro career up until this point. It would be great if he does maintain, but it would be a grievous mistake to allow him to block a player with a higher ceiling if he doesn't.

 

And it would be nice to actually sell high for a change, but I'm not holding my breath.

[EhDubya]

We should lock Barney up right now in a Longoria type deal. The guy is hitting over .300 after all!

[XZero771679666304]

 

All that I'm saying is that Barney hasn't done anything to be benched in favor of an unproven rookie. If he continues to slump badly or later in the season when the Cubs raise the white flag, then give LeMahieu an extended look.

 

I think a big part of this discussion is angst over bringing up guys with a future who should be getting ABs presumably to ride the pine. We saw it with Castillo and we're probably going to see it with DJ. Then you get in a position where, with the season going in the crapper, you start having to wonder what is in the best long term interest of the team. A strong argument could be made that giving LaMahieu some or most of Barney's ABs would be.

 

But with Barney playing well, someone like Scales should have been brought up instead, sparing us this entire conversation.

[SouthSideRyan]

All that I'm saying is that Barney hasn't done anything to be benched in favor of an unproven rookie. If he continues to slump badly or later in the season when the Cubs raise the white flag, then give LeMahieu an extended look.

 

He hasn't done anything to have a lock on the job either.

[XZero771679666304]

All that I'm saying is that Barney hasn't done anything to be benched in favor of an unproven rookie. If he continues to slump badly or later in the season when the Cubs raise the white flag, then give LeMahieu an extended look.

 

He hasn't done anything to have a lock on the job either.

 

There is a certain humor to not benching Barney "in favor of an unproven rookie".

[Guest]

Barney's OPS can drop about 40 points before he reaches league average for middle infielders(SS and 2B are much the same this year to date). In this depressed run environment, contact first hitters like Barney are more valuable than what we've been accustomed to over the term of NSBB's existence. He certainly has limitations, because he's not going to be able to improve much with his dreadfully low patience and power numbers, and he may see a Theriotian dip in numbers once pitchers adjust to him. But if he's truly a plus defender up the middle(currently UZR has it's doubts, someone else can add what other metrics think), he's going to provide plenty of value even with an evened out BABIP. He'll just need this run environment to keep up it's current rate of the last year and a third, or he quickly becomes a "very good reserve middle infielder" instead of "potential 3 win player".

 

As for Dayton Ohio's Tony Campana, he is very fast, and gets some of the same benefit as Barney does from the environment. But he's not nearly the defender that Barney is, and I'd typically like my slappy 5th outfielders to be plus defenders. Better he get at bats than someone like Brad Snyder, but don't hesitate to convince someone that he's the next Sam Fuld and ship him away.

[Sammy Sofa]

The guy is batting .314 with 24 RBI. He's been one of the most solid offensive players on the team. I think his numbers speak for themselves. I don't know why I keep getting drawn into these threads. Gotta stop reading the crap from people who think they know everything.

 

The feast of irony here is just staggering.

[Sammy Sofa]

Barney's OPS can drop about 40 points before he reaches league average for middle infielders(SS and 2B are much the same this year to date). In this depressed run environment, contact first hitters like Barney are more valuable than what we've been accustomed to over the term of NSBB's existence. He certainly has limitations, because he's not going to be able to improve much with his dreadfully low patience and power numbers, and he may see a Theriotian dip in numbers once pitchers adjust to him. But if he's truly a plus defender up the middle(currently UZR has it's doubts, someone else can add what other metrics think), he's going to provide plenty of value even with an evened out BABIP. He'll just need this run environment to keep up it's current rate of the last year and a third, or he quickly becomes a "very good reserve middle infielder" instead of "potential 3 win player".

 

As for Dayton Ohio's Tony Campana, he is very fast, and gets some of the same benefit as Barney does from the environment. But he's not nearly the defender that Barney is, and I'd typically like my slappy 5th outfielders to be plus defenders. Better he get at bats than someone like Brad Snyder, but don't hesitate to convince someone that he's the next Sam Fuld and ship him away.

 

Well said on all points.

[Backtobanks]

All that I'm saying is that Barney hasn't done anything to be benched in favor of an unproven rookie. If he continues to slump badly or later in the season when the Cubs raise the white flag, then give LeMahieu an extended look.

 

He hasn't done anything to have a lock on the job either.

 

He's been a very pleasant surprise in a dismal season. He wasn't even mentioned as a possibility as a starter in spring training, but he completely eliminated DeWitt and DeWitt/Baker platoon as topics of discussion. There might be better options for the long-range future of the Cubs, but as of right this minute Barney is very close to being the least of the Cubs' problems.

[Sammy Sofa]

All that I'm saying is that Barney hasn't done anything to be benched in favor of an unproven rookie. If he continues to slump badly or later in the season when the Cubs raise the white flag, then give LeMahieu an extended look.

 

He hasn't done anything to have a lock on the job either.

 

He's been a very pleasant surprise in a dismal season. He wasn't even mentioned as a possibility as a starter in spring training, but he completely eliminated DeWitt and DeWitt/Baker platoon as topics of discussion. There might be better options for the long-range future of the Cubs, but as of right this minute Barney is very close to being the least of the Cubs' problems.

 

Not sure how that is an argument at all against saying he shouldn't be a lock at 2B.