When to sell Ted Lilly

[SouthSideRyan]

WHAT THE [expletive] IS A TRUE #1

[SouthSideRyan]

And Ryan Dempster isn't overpaid. He's really [expletive] good

[soapy]

I've seen several people reference Dempster as over-paid and I just don't get it.

[dew1679666265]

WHAT THE [expletive] IS A TRUE #1

 

An elite, dominant starter. Think Halladay, Cliff Lee, Sabathia, etc. There's not very many of them.

[dew1679666265]

I've seen several people reference Dempster as over-paid and I just don't get it.

 

Yeah, he and Lilly have been our best starters the past couple of years and well worth the money we're paying them.

[Sammy Sofa]

The fact that he's overpaid though is important because they are also overpaying Dempster.

 

Explain how Dempster is overpaid.

[SouthSideRyan]

The fact that he's overpaid though is important because they are also overpaying Dempster.

 

Explain how Dempster is overpaid.

 

Cause he's not a true #1. Dempster is more of a 2, whereas Zambrano is a 2 and a half, Lilly is a 3 factorial, and Wells is the derivative of e^x

[Sammy Sofa]

And Silva is pi.

 

Delicious, delicious pi.

[Keener98]

I don't believe that's what he was saying. There aren't 5 guys that consistantly win 20 games. What he's talking about is a true #1 starter. Zambrano has never really been that guy.

 

How much does Cliff Lee make? I heard some baseball talking heads say that Seattle is looking to get out from his contract. Maybe they'd take a package of Zambrano, Wells and Stevens for Lee, then they could spin Zambrano to Boston for salary relief or less than it would cost Boston in terms of prospects to just trade for Lee.

 

Thats my point, there isnt even 1 guy who consistently wins 20 games, yet everybody loves bringing it up when talking about Zambrano.

 

Zambrano has never really been that guy(true #1)? Really?

 

2003 3.11 ERA 1.318 Whip 32 games started 214 innings pitched at age 22 but he only won 13 games so he sucked

 

2004 2.75 ERA 1.216 WHIP 31 games started 208 innings pitched at age 23, but only won 16 games so he sucked.

 

I can keep listing his stats and they all will have an ERA under 4 and usually have 200 innings pitched along with them. Add those numbers along with his offensive production he provided Z has consistently been a top 15 pitcher in all of baseball, and in the majority of those years, hes been a top 10 pitcher since he arrived.

 

But because Z didnt get to some magical number of 20 wins that basically every other pitcher in baseball doesnt ever get too, Z gets called an underachiever, not a true #1, etc......

[Ryno is God 23]

Demp has made 7 and 9 million the last two years and is at 12.5 this year. He gets to 13.5 in 2011 and has a player option in 2012 for 14.5.

He has been rock solid for us. I wouldn't put him in the overpaid category, he might be there in 2012.

 

What could the Cubs realistically get if they moved Lilly?

[jersey cubs fan]

What could the Cubs realistically get if they moved Lilly?

 

I think you have to focus on getting a top of the 7th inning with 1 out and a man on base down by 3 runs or less guy.

[biittner77]

I don't believe that's what he was saying. There aren't 5 guys that consistantly win 20 games. What he's talking about is a true #1 starter. Zambrano has never really been that guy.

 

How much does Cliff Lee make? I heard some baseball talking heads say that Seattle is looking to get out from his contract. Maybe they'd take a package of Zambrano, Wells and Stevens for Lee, then they could spin Zambrano to Boston for salary relief or less than it would cost Boston in terms of prospects to just trade for Lee.

 

Thats my point, there isnt even 1 guy who consistently wins 20 games, yet everybody loves bringing it up when talking about Zambrano.

 

Zambrano has never really been that guy(true #1)? Really?

 

2003 3.11 ERA 1.318 Whip 32 games started 214 innings pitched at age 22 but he only won 13 games so he sucked

 

2004 2.75 ERA 1.216 WHIP 31 games started 208 innings pitched at age 23, but only won 16 games so he sucked.

 

I can keep listing his stats and they all will have an ERA under 4 and usually have 200 innings pitched along with them. Add those numbers along with his offensive production he provided Z has consistently been a top 15 pitcher in all of baseball, and in the majority of those years, hes been a top 10 pitcher since he arrived.

 

But because Z didnt get to some magical number of 20 wins that basically every other pitcher in baseball doesnt ever get too, Z gets called an underachiever, not a true #1, etc......

 

I never have and never will say anything about Zambrano not winning 20 games as a reason he's not #1. I defy you to find even one post from me that suggests that wins is a useful stat in measuring a pitcher's value.

 

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

[Sammy Sofa]

To what, justify him starting for the Cubs?

[jersey cubs fan]

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

 

To be a real number 1 in a 30 team league, why must you be top 10?

[biittner77]

I was thinking Ryan Dempster was getting money comparable to what Zambrano got. My misstake. He is a good value at 12 million.

[biittner77]

To what, justify him starting for the Cubs?

 

No, in fact I said he may be the best starting pitcher on the team. Someone said that Zambrano is a top 10 pitcher and I have a hard time buying that.

 

If I didn't know better I'd swear you guys were [expletive] with me.

[biittner77]

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

 

To be a real number 1 in a 30 team league, why must you be top 10?

 

During the regular season it doesn't matter much. Would you want to enter the playoffs with your best starter not even among the 10 best in the league?

[Sammy Sofa]

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

 

To be a real number 1 in a 30 team league, why must you be top 10?

 

During the regular season it doesn't matter much. Would you want to enter the playoffs with your best starter not even among the 10 best in the league?

 

Not if I have a better choice otherwise, but it's hardly an unwinnable situation to be in.

[jersey cubs fan]

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

 

To be a real number 1 in a 30 team league, why must you be top 10?

 

During the regular season it doesn't matter much. Would you want to enter the playoffs with your best starter not even among the 10 best in the league?

 

Obviously I'd like the best player possible at every single position. It would be sweet to have Schilling and Johnson atop the rotation, but that doesn't happen for most teams.

[Keener98]

To what, justify him starting for the Cubs?

 

No, in fact I said he may be the best starting pitcher on the team. Someone said that Zambrano is a top 10 pitcher and I have a hard time buying that.

 

If I didn't know better I'd swear you guys were [expletive] with me.

 

Where did I say he is a top 10 pitcher? I said in most years hes been in the league, when you add his pitching with his hitting, he has been a top 10 pitcher. You said hes not the same pitcher he was back in 03 and 04...well obviously, because in those years he was 1 of the top 5 pitchers in all of baseball.

 

How many starting pitchers every year do you think put up sub 4 ERA's and also contributes with their bat? Zambrano was still top 20 in ERA last year among starters in the NL in what a lot of people called a down year from Z.

 

Even this year, Zambrano had a terrible start to start the year, but in his next 3 starts he didnt allow more than 3 runs. I mean is he Roy Halladay or Tim Lincecum? No of course not, but hes still 1 of the best starting pitchers in the NL, and add that in with his bat, he is pretty damn valuable.

[Keener98]

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

 

To be a real number 1 in a 30 team league, why must you be top 10?

 

During the regular season it doesn't matter much. Would you want to enter the playoffs with your best starter not even among the 10 best in the league?

 

If the Cubs enter the playoffs, Z would be one of the 10 best in the playoffs, and at that point thats really all that matters.

[biittner77]

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

 

To be a real number 1 in a 30 team league, why must you be top 10?

 

During the regular season it doesn't matter much. Would you want to enter the playoffs with your best starter not even among the 10 best in the league?

 

Obviously I'd like the best player possible at every single position. It would be sweet to have Schilling and Johnson atop the rotation, but that doesn't happen for most teams.

 

Wouldn't you agree that a team with the Cubs resources should be able to afford at least one of those guys?

[jersey cubs fan]

Wouldn't you agree that a team with the Cubs resources should be able to afford at least one of those guys?

 

Sure they could, but they chose to spread it around to several starters. But what is your point? Zambrano isn't perfect. So what? He's been very good, and for much of his career he was worth way more than he was paid. He hasn't been as good as he was at his best, but his decline has been grossly overstated and your nitpicking of him just doesn't make much sense. He's been the best pitcher on perhaps the best pitching team in the NL over the past decade.

[SouthSideRyan]

What I will say is that he is not the same pitcher he was back in 2003-04. Sometimes he shows flashes. He may be the best starting pitcher on the current team. But you'll have to show me how he's still a top 10 pitcher.

 

To be a real number 1 in a 30 team league, why must you be top 10?

 

During the regular season it doesn't matter much. Would you want to enter the playoffs with your best starter not even among the 10 best in the league?

 

The Atlanta Braves had 3 of the 10 best pitchers every year in the playoffs and were heroic underachievers. Why aren't you hammering somebody on the Cubs offense for not being a top 10 hitter?

[Fred Hornkohl]

The Atlanta Braves had 3 of the 10 best pitchers every year in the playoffs and were heroic underachievers.

 

No they weren't.

 

          1991 thru 2005                            World Series
team                        W       L     pct    PA     W     L

Atlanta Braves           1431     931   0.606    14     1     4
New York Yankees         1368     993   0.579    11     4     2
Boston Red Sox           1274    1090   0.539     6     1     0
St. Louis Cardinals      1263    1099   0.535     6     0     1
Houston Astros           1255    1110   0.531     6     0     1
San Francisco Giants     1254    1110   0.530     4     0     1
Chicago White Sox        1249    1112   0.529     3     1     0
Cleveland Indians        1242    1119   0.526     6     0     2
Oakland A's              1241    1122   0.525     5     0     0
Los Angeles Dodgers      1224    1140   0.518     3     0     0
Seattle Mariners         1212    1149   0.513     4     0     0
Toronto Blue Jays        1189    1164   0.505     3     2     0
Arizona Diamondbacks      652     644   0.503     3     1     0
Texas Rangers            1179    1185   0.499     3     0     0
Anaheim Angels           1178    1196   0.496     3     1     0
Cincinnati Reds          1165    1200   0.493     0     0     0
Minnesota Twins          1157    1203   0.490     4     1     0
New York Mets            1147    1212   0.486     2     0     1
Philadelphia Phillies    1146    1218   0.485     1     0     1
Baltimore Orioles        1145    1216   0.485     2     0     0
Chicago Cubs             1137    1224   0.482     2     0     0
Washington Nationals     1140    1223   0.482     0     0     0
San Diego Padres         1137    1230   0.480     3     0     1
Florida Marlins           963    1076   0.472     2     2     0
Colorado Rockies          949    1094   0.465     1     0     0
Pittsburgh Pirates       1096    1265   0.464     2     0     0
Milwaukee Brewers        1081    1281   0.458     0     0     0
Kansas City Royals       1051    1310   0.445     0     0     0
Detroit Tigers           1009    1354   0.427     0     0     0
Tampa Bay Devilrays       518     775   0.401     0     0     0