Re: 04/16 Houston (Paulino) @ CUBS (Silva) 1:20 CDT, CSN

[jersey cubs fan]

Bob: "Lotta good defense in the game today."

 

Considering that they Astros essentially got their two runs due to crappy Cubs' defense, no, Bob, there wasn't.

 

Plus the dumb play by Feliz that led to at least Theriot scoring, and quite likely the full 3-run homer that Lee had (assuming Theriot is out and Fukudome still flies out).

 

Pretty sure Bob and all color guys says something similar after a game is only talking about their team.

 

No, you're wrong, they talk about the play of both teams all the time. Either way it was an inacccurate statement.

[TruffleShuffle]

marmol has struck out 11 of the 19 batters he's faced this season. that's pretty good.

[Careless]

That Lee homer might become his new stock footage shot.

[Cubs Fan Dan]

It's been a while since anyone has mention Lee's perfect ass....

[CubbieBum]

Stupid, stupid decision by Lou, but since it worked out okay, is 14 pitches that big of a deal?

 

Yes, because he also had to warm up.

 

Agreed but that is also the reason why sitting Grabow after being fully warm would have been a bad idea.

 

Grabow is nowhere near as essential as Marmol or getting the young arms some badly needed game time.

 

Exactly why you allow him to pitch. He's not a great pitcher who you want to protect. You warmed him up so you should just let him pitch. Why waste two bad pitchers when you can just use one and save the other in case the starter blows chunks in game 2 or 3 and you need 4-5 innings out of your bullpen?

[TruffleShuffle]

Exactly why you allow him to pitch. He's not a great pitcher who you want to protect. You warmed him up so you should just let him pitch. Why waste two bad pitchers when you can just use one and save the other in case the starter blows chunks in game 2 or 3 and you need 4-5 innings out of your bullpen?

 

wait are you saying that it's bad for a guy's arm to warm him up but then not pitch him in a ballgame.

[Sammy Sofa]

Stupid, stupid decision by Lou, but since it worked out okay, is 14 pitches that big of a deal?

 

Yes, because he also had to warm up.

 

Agreed but that is also the reason why sitting Grabow after being fully warm would have been a bad idea.

 

Grabow is nowhere near as essential as Marmol or getting the young arms some badly needed game time.

 

Exactly why you allow him to pitch. He's not a great pitcher who you want to protect. You warmed him up so you should just let him pitch. Why waste two bad pitchers when you can just use one and save the other in case the starter blows chunks in game 2 or 3 and you need 4-5 innings out of your bullpen?

 

Because as it stands it is absolutely critical that the young arms in the bullpen get time in games like this. You can't approach this bullpen right now as you would a "typical" bullpen as you're describing. It is essential that they capitalize on getting playing time that isn't high-leverage right now. We don't actually know that these are "bad arms" in the bullpen and these types of games are a gold mine in terms of letting inexperienced pitchers get some playing time and to start feeling more comfortable.

[jersey cubs fan]

Exactly why you allow him to pitch. He's not a great pitcher who you want to protect. You warmed him up so you should just let him pitch. Why waste two bad pitchers when you can just use one and save the other in case the starter blows chunks in game 2 or 3 and you need 4-5 innings out of your bullpen?

 

wait are you saying that it's bad for a guy's arm to warm him up but then not pitch him in a ballgame.

 

No, it's that warming a guy up is almost the same as using him, so if he's warm, just use him and don't waste another guy.

[jersey cubs fan]

I was fine with letting Grabow pitch, they should have used the 9th to get another guy some work.

[CubbieBum]

Exactly why you allow him to pitch. He's not a great pitcher who you want to protect. You warmed him up so you should just let him pitch. Why waste two bad pitchers when you can just use one and save the other in case the starter blows chunks in game 2 or 3 and you need 4-5 innings out of your bullpen?

 

wait are you saying that it's bad for a guy's arm to warm him up but then not pitch him in a ballgame.

 

No. Someone said it wasn't a big deal that Marmol pitched because he only threw 14 pitches. Nuts&Gum said it is a big deal because he had to warm up. A couple pages before that he was complaining that we didn't sit Grabow after the Lee HR (don't think we had enough to time to get someone fully warm anyways) so we could use one of the struggling young arms.

 

I was pointing out that because Grabow had already gotten fully warm you should just let him pitch because fully warming up is generally considered as being used whether or not you actually go in the game. Sitting him down would completely waste him.

[TruffleShuffle]

ok well as long as we all agree that there was no reason for marmol to even warm up, let alone pitch in the game.

[CubbieBum]

ok well as long as we all agree that there was no reason for marmol to even warm up, let alone pitch in the game.

 

Agreed.

[Sammy Sofa]

Exactly why you allow him to pitch. He's not a great pitcher who you want to protect. You warmed him up so you should just let him pitch. Why waste two bad pitchers when you can just use one and save the other in case the starter blows chunks in game 2 or 3 and you need 4-5 innings out of your bullpen?

 

wait are you saying that it's bad for a guy's arm to warm him up but then not pitch him in a ballgame.

 

No. Someone said it wasn't a big deal that Marmol pitched because he only threw 14 pitches. Nuts&Gum said it is a big deal because he had to warm up. A couple pages before that he was complaining that we didn't sit Grabow after the Lee HR (don't think we had enough to time to get someone fully warm anyways) so we could use one of the struggling young arms.

 

I was pointing out that because Grabow had already gotten fully warm you should just let him pitch because fully warming up is generally considered as being used whether or not you actually go in the game. Sitting him down would completely waste him.

 

And it should be obvious to anyone the gigantic difference between wasting Marmol and wasting Grabow. This is twice now you've responded to my points as if both are the same circumstances.

[CubbieBum]

Exactly why you allow him to pitch. He's not a great pitcher who you want to protect. You warmed him up so you should just let him pitch. Why waste two bad pitchers when you can just use one and save the other in case the starter blows chunks in game 2 or 3 and you need 4-5 innings out of your bullpen?

 

wait are you saying that it's bad for a guy's arm to warm him up but then not pitch him in a ballgame.

 

No. Someone said it wasn't a big deal that Marmol pitched because he only threw 14 pitches. Nuts&Gum said it is a big deal because he had to warm up. A couple pages before that he was complaining that we didn't sit Grabow after the Lee HR (don't think we had enough to time to get someone fully warm anyways) so we could use one of the struggling young arms.

 

I was pointing out that because Grabow had already gotten fully warm you should just let him pitch because fully warming up is generally considered as being used whether or not you actually go in the game. Sitting him down would completely waste him.

 

And it should be obvious to anyone the gigantic difference between wasting Marmol and wasting Grabow. This is twice now you've responded to my points as if both are the same circumstances.

 

See my post directly above your last one Num&Nuts.

 

The strain and workload for a pitcher warming up is the same thing no matter what circumstance. You are ignoring the point I am making and trying to act like it is something else (you seem to do this a lot). I agree the situations in using Marmol and Grabow are different. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how Grabow is not a pitcher who is worth saving the additional strain from actually pitching in the game, unlike Marmol, just so we can give some other pitcher who is struggling time. There is no need to essentially use up two struggling RP's when one will suffice.

 

You disagree with that because you think getting Berg or some other young RP action in a relatively low risk situation outweighs completely wasting Grabow (even though there probably wasn't enough time to get another pitcher up and fully warm after Lee's HR). Fine. I and likely everyone else gets it. We disagree. That has been made obvious so stop trying to make it about some delusional argument about Marmol. The argument has nothing to do with Marmol other than your mentioning him in saying warming up is a good amount of work.

[Cubswin11]

Good W today, should get a series win. Could be hard to sweep facing Oswalt and Wandy still, but with how bad the Astros have been it's not out of the question.

[Sammy Sofa]

The strain and workload for a pitcher warming up is the same thing no matter what circumstance.

 

Nobody has said anything contrary to that. It's irrelevant to what I've been trying to say.

 

You are ignoring the point I am making and trying to act like it is something else (you seem to do this a lot). I agree the situations in using Marmol and Grabow are different. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how Grabow is not a pitcher who is worth saving the additional strain from actually pitching in the game, unlike Marmol, just so we can give some other pitcher who is struggling time. There is no need to essentially use up two struggling RP's when one will suffice.

 

There clearly is a need. The struggles of the bullpen is a need that's made out of neon and is shooting of fireworks. Again, this team HAS to capitalize on opportunities like this at this point in the season if they want any hope of having a serviceable bullpen down the stretch without wasting resources overpaying in a trade. You can't plan to have opportunities like this. Given the bigger picture, the smart thing to do is eat that Grabow had to warm up and get a kid in there. You gamble that while playing the worst team in baseball right now at home that you can do that and help your team in the long run by getting your inexperienced bullpen some valuable no-pressure pitching time early in the season.

 

You disagree with that because you think getting Berg or some other young RP action in a relatively low risk situation outweighs completely wasting Grabow (even though there probably wasn't enough time to get another pitcher up and fully warm after Lee's HR). Fine. I and likely everyone else gets it. We disagree. That has been made obvious so stop trying to make it about some delusional argument about Marmol. The argument has nothing to do with Marmol other than your mentioning him in saying warming up is a good amount of work.

 

I haven't tried to make this a "delusional argument about Marmol." I have no clue how you came to that conclusion. All I said is that it was a waste to use Marmol today, same as it was a waste to use Grabow. Grabow should have been sat down once they went up by 2 (or at least someone else should have been throwing alongside him at that point given how the game was going) since it's the [expletive] Astros and Marmol never should have been up at all.

[erik316wttn]

I missed the entire game. Saw D-Lee went deep again and that Silva was great again. How did the pen look, and how was Soriano? Thanks.

[Sammy Sofa]

I missed the entire game. Saw D-Lee went deep again and that Silva was great again. How did the pen look, and how was Soriano? Thanks.

 

Soriano looked good. Couple of hits, including an RBI double. Looked good defensively, too. Played confidently and took away a hit from Carlos Lee with a nice jumping catch by the wall. Also had a stolen base, though initially they were trying to pick him off 2nd.

 

Bullpen was fine. Silva went 7, so Grabow pitched the 8th. Gave up a hit, but erased it with a double play and then a strikeout. Marmol closed because Lou is bonkers and was filthy, mowing them down 1-2-3.

[CubbieBum]

There clearly is a need. The struggles of the bullpen is a need that's made out of neon and is shooting of fireworks. Again, this team HAS to capitalize on opportunities like this at this point in the season if they want any hope of having a serviceable bullpen down the stretch without wasting resources overpaying in a trade. You can't plan to have opportunities like this. Given the bigger picture, the smart thing to do is eat that Grabow had to warm up and get a kid in there. You gamble that while playing the worst team in baseball right now at home that you can do that and help your team in the long run by getting your inexperienced bullpen some valuable no-pressure pitching time early in the season.

 

Yes there is a need but in a 162 game season that we are 10 games into I bet there are other situations like today's thus sitting a struggling RP who has already warmed up and needs no-pressure situations as well is not the best idea. The "kids" are in the bigs. You get them easy work when you can but they should be treated as if they are made of glass. Don't waste pitchers who need work just to get the "kids" work. Grabow was up because we were down by 1 going into the our half of the inning. If we had been up from the beginning then I would hope a young pitcher gets the chance but that wasn't the case.

 

I haven't tried to make this a "delusional argument about Marmol." I have no clue how you came to that conclusion.

 

Gee I wonder where I got that idea from. Oh wait it was from this post made just before your last.

 

And it should be obvious to anyone the gigantic difference between wasting Marmol and wasting Grabow.

[Little Slide Rooter]

When you have a bullpen full of guys who need to be put into some low leverage situations, when you have a 5 run lead, which has been scarce this season, I really dont see why you would use your closer in that situation. While I have Samardjiza chalked up as a lost cause, Gray and Berg really could have used the work there. If they got into any trouble, surely Marmol could have steeped in and shut down the Astros sickly offense.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yes there is a need but in a 162 game season that we are 10 games into I bet there are other situations like today's thus sitting a struggling RP who has already warmed up and needs no-pressure situations as well is not the best idea. The "kids" are in the bigs. You get them easy work when you can but they should be treated as if they are made of glass. Don't waste pitchers who need work just to get the "kids" work. Grabow was up because we were down by 1 going into the our half of the inning. If we had been up from the beginning then I would hope a young pitcher gets the chance but that wasn't the case.

 

This isn't something that can't be put off. The bullpen could very easily be the Achilles' heel of this team and they need to get the younger arms more experience ASAP. You DO have to treat them with relative kids gloves when you're basically pinning the hope of the bullpen on a mostly inexperienced bullpen. You can't just toss them into the mix and expect them to sink or swim. That's a strategy for failure, and what I'm talking about is inherent to actually managing a bullpen.

 

I haven't tried to make this a "delusional argument about Marmol." I have no clue how you came to that conclusion.

 

Gee I wonder where I got that idea from. Oh wait it was from this post made just before your last.

 

And it should be obvious to anyone the gigantic difference between wasting Marmol and wasting Grabow.

 

I still can't figure out where the "delusional argument is." You were the one that was attempting to seemingly point out a contradiction on my part concerning wasting Grabow vs. wasting Marmol, which is the only reason I made the post you just quoted. It IS a much bigger deal to waste Marmol on a day like this than it would be to warm up Grabow and then not use him. There's nothing delusional at all about recognizing that. There's no contradiction on my part being frustrated over Marmol warming up and pitching today vs. thinking that Grabow warming up and not pitching wouldn't be a big deal if it was due to smart managing looking at the big picture.

[BCVM22]

http://home.comcast.net/~bcvm22/cubs/4162010.mp3

[Careless]

I missed the entire game. Saw D-Lee went deep again and that Silva was great again. How did the pen look, and how was Soriano? Thanks.

 

Soriano looked good. Couple of hits, including an RBI double. Looked good defensively, too. Played confidently and took away a hit from Carlos Lee with a nice jumping catch by the wall. Also had a stolen base, though initially they were trying to pick him off 2nd.

 

Bullpen was fine. Silva went 7, so Grabow pitched the 8th. Gave up a hit, but erased it with a double play and then a strikeout. Marmol closed because Lou is bonkers and was filthy, mowing them down 1-2-3.

For some reason the Astros kept throwing Soriano things that were not low and away. In the AB where he doubled they threw three straight inside fastballs and then a slider over the middle of the plate. I would have been furious as an Astros fan.