Wood vs Burly

[Pushfrog98]

Plus, this is the only time that Batting Average is actually THE important stat... You're talking about someone getting a hit. Any hit, not extra bases.

Or OBP because we're talking about someone getting on base. Hit or walk.

Fair enough. The slugging numbers don't really matter in this case though.

[Cubbie Swagger]

20-K games: 4

Perfect games: 18

 

"Who?" needed an otherworldly defensive play to save his perfecto. Wood needed someone to miss a playable grounder at third base to NOT get a no-hitter.

 

Wood's game is better. There's no debate.

My logic exactly. Wood very nearly had a no-hitter and many people feel that he should have.

 

The other thing is that no-hitters are much more likely to happen as a result of a little luck than a 20k game. Like in Z's no-hitter for example... he didn't even have his best stuff that day, and didn't even dominate as much as you would expect in a no-hit performance. He just got a few calls, got people to chase a few pitches, and hitters hit the ball to the right places. A 20k game will not occur as a result of anything other than complete nastiness on the part of the pitcher. Causing 20 major league hitters to strike out and only allowing 8 balls into play is [expletive] intense.

[UMFan83]

20-K games: 4

Perfect games: 18

 

"Who?" needed an otherworldly defensive play to save his perfecto. Wood needed someone to miss a playable grounder at third base to NOT get a no-hitter.

 

Wood's game is better. There's no debate.

My logic exactly. Wood very nearly had a no-hitter and many people feel that he should have.

 

The other thing is that no-hitters are much more likely to happen as a result of a little luck than a 20k game. Like in Z's no-hitter for example... he didn't even have his best stuff that day, and didn't even dominate as much as you would expect in a no-hit performance. He just got a few calls, got people to chase a few pitches, and hitters hit the ball to the right places. A 20k game will not occur as a result of anything other than complete nastiness on the part of the pitcher. Causing 20 major league hitters to strike out and only allowing 8 balls into play is [expletive] intense.

 

I don't know I thought Z had pretty good stuff on his no-no day. He was working at a good pace, and really had all his pitches working effectively that day. He only walked 1 and hit another, which is a huge sign that his stuff is working that day.

[ELCABALLO45]

Buehrle probably faced the stronger line up, but Wood was filthy that day.

 

Hmm... I doubt it. Houston went 102-60 that year and led the NL in runs scored by a decent margin.

 

It's probably about even.

 

Houston scored 5.4 runs per game with a line of .280/.356/.436/.792.

 

Tampa Bay averaged 4.96 runs per game with a line of .263/.343/.439/.782.

 

Houston scored almost half a run more per game but the batting lines were very similar.

 

The line up the Rays put out there that day was..

 

BJ Upton (.689)

Carl Crawford (.811)

Evan Longoria (.876)

Carlos Pena (.859)

Ben Zobrist (.995)

Pat Burrell (.703)

Gabe Kapler (.808)

Michel Hernandez (.599)

Jason Barlett (.903)

 

I doubt the Astros line up was that strong that day. So yeah, I would say the Buehrle faced the stronger line up. But whatever, I still think Wood's was more impressive.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

1) Is that their OPS on going into the day? Seems silly to voluntarily use a half-season of sample size.

 

2)

Player (1998 OPS)

Biggio .906

Bell .855

Bagwell .981

Howell .857

Alou .981

Clark .547

Guttierrez .671

Ausmus .713

Reynolds .396

[Hairyducked Idiot]

BJ Upton (.686)

Carl Crawford (.816)

Evan Longoria (.889)

Carlos Pena (.893)

Ben Zobrist (.948)

Pat Burrell (.682)

Gabe Kapler (.768)

Michel Hernandez (.616)

Jason Barlett (.879)

 

Anyways, there's the full season numbers. The Ray lineup was a smidge deeper, as expected in a DH league, but otherwise they look pretty similar.

[Cubbie Swagger]

The top 5 hitters in both those lineups are pretty nasty. Except for Upton.

[imb]

I was going to argue that Houston has the edge because they were an NL team with pitchers ABs brining down that line (and I believe Shane Reynolds was a notably bad hitter at that point in his career). But then I realized that the 98 Houston team was in the heart of the steroid era, making their statline slightly less impressive.

 

think about this again for a second ...

[chasinf5s]

20-K games: 4

Perfect games: 18

 

"Who?" needed an otherworldly defensive play to save his perfecto. Wood needed someone to miss a playable grounder at third base to NOT get a no-hitter.

 

Wood's game is better. There's no debate.

My logic exactly. Wood very nearly had a no-hitter and many people feel that he should have.

 

The other thing is that no-hitters are much more likely to happen as a result of a little luck than a 20k game. Like in Z's no-hitter for example... he didn't even have his best stuff that day, and didn't even dominate as much as you would expect in a no-hit performance. He just got a few calls, got people to chase a few pitches, and hitters hit the ball to the right places. A 20k game will not occur as a result of anything other than complete nastiness on the part of the pitcher. Causing 20 major league hitters to strike out and only allowing 8 balls into play is [expletive] intense.

 

What you described happens in every single baseball game played. just saying.

[Post Count Padder]

Wood's 20Ks, definitely. I'm not downplaying the perfect game. That's a tall feat as well. I just think it's more impressive to miss bats against 20 batters in one game. That's all on the pitcher and the catcher.

[Pushfrog98]

Talking to my Cardinal fan co-workers (one of which is a HS baseball coach and both are fairly anti-Cubs) about this and they both agreed that Kerry Wood's performance was the best pitching performance. They said that Burly's perfect game was an impressive team feat, but to throw 20K's is total domination by a single pitcher.

 

I brought up the argument about lineup differences and my boss (who is the HS coach) said it doesn't matter. They are Major League batters, they should be able to figure a new pitcher out and not strike out 20 times in a game. After the 2nd time facing Wood, they should have had an idea of what he was throwing. They DID have an idea and still couldn't make good contact. Burly had to rely on some spectacular defense to preserve his perfect game.

 

Just thought I'd throw in what 2 cardinal fans had to say.

[Maclowery]

Cardinals fan here who agrees. Any Cards fan who sided with Buerhle simply because Wood was a Cub at the time isn't making much sense. 20K is just more dominant. Both games were absolutely terrific. I saw the end of the White Sox game after a buddy texted me to put it on, so I was lucky enough to see that great catch. Wish I'd seen Wood's outing.

[Sammy Sofa]

What's up with the "Burly" thing?

[bukie]

What's up with the "Burly" thing?

Well, if you're going to misspell a name, do it enough so it's obvious it was on purpose.

[Guest]

What's up with the "Burly" thing?

I never remember how to spell his name correctly without looking it up, so I went with the spelling of the regular word.

[cheapseats]

1) Is that their OPS on going into the day? Seems silly to voluntarily use a half-season of sample size.

 

2)

Player (1998 OPS)

Biggio .906

Bell .855

Bagwell .981

Howell .857

Alou .981

Clark .547

Guttierrez .671

Ausmus .713

Reynolds .396

 

Since we're using OPS in this thread, everyone ought to consider that the 1998 Astros played half their games in the Astrodome, a park that was not friendly to hitters. The Rays play in a fairly neutral stadium.

 

I forgot just how good that 98 Astros team was.

[chuckywang]

Wood's 20K game was more impressive and it's not even close. Isn't Wood's game the most dominant performance by a pitcher using some game score metric?

[RedFlash]

As great as Mark Buehrle performance, but looking at KW 20k game .v. Mark Buehrle "perfect game" and everything I see suggest Wood's performance is by far the more impressive game. So I definately took KW on Buehrle without blinking an eye.

[Pushfrog98]

I was looking at both of Clemens' 20k games and he was facing extremely weak lineups, for the most part, both times. Plus, against the Mariners, he gave up a HR and (i think) 4 hits and against the Tigers he gave up 5 hits. That Tigers lineup only had 2 batters OPS over 800 and the Mariners lineup had 3 and nobody batting over .250 at the time (thought it was early in the season.)

 

 

Interesting note, Brad Ausmus was involved in 2 20k games.