Re: Nomar to retire; heading to ESPN

[RedFlash]

For funsies:

 

Cubs got:

Nomar Garciaparra: 2.0 WAR as a Cub (1.3 in 2004 before signing the one-year extension. Not as meh as I remembered)

Matt Murton: 4.4 WAR as a Cub

 

Red Sox got:

Orlando Cabrera: 1.2 WAR as a Red Sox

Doug Mientkiewicz: -0.2 WAR as a Red Sox

 

Cubs gave up:

Francis Beltran: -0.3 WAR in negligible major-league time since

Justin Jones: peaked at AA

Brendan Harris: 2.2 WAR in the majors since the deal, replacement-level player outside of one season

Alex Gonzalez: 0.9 WAR since the trade, -0.5 in the rest of 2004

 

 

Hendry pwned that trade pretty hard.

 

For as much as I rip on Hendry, he did get the best of that trade by far.

 

it's just too bad Nomar's groin exploded in 2005.

 

Talent wise, sure Hendry owned it big time, but ultimately the biggest winner of that trade was Boston.

[dew1679666265]

For funsies:

 

Cubs got:

Nomar Garciaparra: 2.0 WAR as a Cub (1.3 in 2004 before signing the one-year extension. Not as meh as I remembered)

Matt Murton: 4.4 WAR as a Cub

 

Red Sox got:

Orlando Cabrera: 1.2 WAR as a Red Sox

Doug Mientkiewicz: -0.2 WAR as a Red Sox

 

Cubs gave up:

Francis Beltran: -0.3 WAR in negligible major-league time since

Justin Jones: peaked at AA

Brendan Harris: 2.2 WAR in the majors since the deal, replacement-level player outside of one season

Alex Gonzalez: 0.9 WAR since the trade, -0.5 in the rest of 2004

 

 

Hendry pwned that trade pretty hard.

 

For as much as I rip on Hendry, he did get the best of that trade by far.

 

it's just too bad Nomar's groin exploded in 2005.

 

Talent wise, sure Hendry owned it big time, but ultimately the biggest winner of that trade was Boston.

 

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

[RedFlash]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

[dew1679666265]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

 

2004 UZR/150:

 

Nomar: -15.8

Cabrera: -2.3

 

2004 OPS:

 

Nomar: .842

Cabrera: .689

 

Was the defensive difference between the two enough to make up for the offensive gap? I doubt it.

[RedFlash]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

 

2004 UZR/150:

 

Nomar: -15.8

Cabrera: -2.3

 

2004 OPS:

 

Nomar: .842

Cabrera: .689

 

Was the defensive difference between the two enough to make up for the offensive gap? I doubt it.

 

Yeah, you can throw all of these new age stats at me all you want, (you might as well be speaking Farsi), the fact is the Red Sox were a better TEAM after Nomar then they were with Nomar. Enough so the Red Sox felt they needed to make that trade. Did they actually lose out on the trade, not one bit.

[dew1679666265]

Yeah, you can throw all of these new age stats at me all you want, (you might as well be speaking Farsi), the fact is the Red Sox were a better TEAM after Nomar then they were with Nomar. Enough so the Red Sox felt they needed to make that trade. Did they actually lose out on the trade, not one bit.

 

They may have been a better team after July 31, 2004, but it wasn't because they traded Nomar for Cabrera. Roberts and Mientkiewcz may have been significant improvements or maybe some guys already there started playing better, but the acquisition of Cabrera really didn't help them that much.

 

Throwing out a more old school stat:

 

Cabrera fielding percentage with Boston in 2004: .966

 

Nomar fielding percentage with Boston in 2004: .957

[17 Seconds]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

 

2004 UZR/150:

 

Nomar: -15.8

Cabrera: -2.3

 

2004 OPS:

 

Nomar: .842

Cabrera: .689

 

Was the defensive difference between the two enough to make up for the offensive gap? I doubt it.

 

Yeah, you can throw all of these new age stats at me all you want, (you might as well be speaking Farsi), the fact is the Red Sox were a better TEAM after Nomar then they were with Nomar. Enough so the Red Sox felt they needed to make that trade. Did they actually lose out on the trade, not one bit.

 

wow

[rocket]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

 

2004 UZR/150:

 

Nomar: -15.8

Cabrera: -2.3

 

2004 OPS:

 

Nomar: .842

Cabrera: .689

 

Was the defensive difference between the two enough to make up for the offensive gap? I doubt it.

 

orlando put a .785 ops as a red sox player

[inari]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

 

2004 UZR/150:

 

Nomar: -15.8

Cabrera: -2.3

 

2004 OPS:

 

Nomar: .842

Cabrera: .689

 

Was the defensive difference between the two enough to make up for the offensive gap? I doubt it.

 

Yeah, you can throw all of these new age stats at me all you want, (you might as well be speaking Farsi), the fact is the Red Sox were a better TEAM after Nomar then they were with Nomar. Enough so the Red Sox felt they needed to make that trade. Did they actually lose out on the trade, not one bit.

 

OPS is a new age stat?

[jersey cubs fan]

Is anybody taking money into account when talking about who won a trade? Nomar was making a nice chunk of change that year in the final year of his deal. Boston was not going to offer him arbitration to get picks, because he wasn't worth his contract anymore. Then he signed as a free agent.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Is anybody taking money into account when talking about who won a trade? Nomar was making a nice chunk of change that year in the final year of his deal. Boston was not going to offer him arbitration to get picks, because he wasn't worth his contract anymore. Then he signed as a free agent.

 

IIRC, Boston included cash in the deal to make it cash-neutral for both teams?

[Sammy Sofa]

new age stats

 

And there it is.

[jersey cubs fan]

Is anybody taking money into account when talking about who won a trade? Nomar was making a nice chunk of change that year in the final year of his deal. Boston was not going to offer him arbitration to get picks, because he wasn't worth his contract anymore. Then he signed as a free agent.

 

IIRC, Boston included cash in the deal to make it cash-neutral for both teams?

 

But the Cubs were still taking on a soon-to-be free agent with injury and decline issues who was not going to get arbitration from his old team. There's more to the story than just who the players were.

[dew1679666265]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

 

2004 UZR/150:

 

Nomar: -15.8

Cabrera: -2.3

 

2004 OPS:

 

Nomar: .842

Cabrera: .689

 

Was the defensive difference between the two enough to make up for the offensive gap? I doubt it.

 

orlando put a .785 ops as a red sox player

 

Nomar had an .867 OPS while in Boston.

 

I'd have broken it down to only when the players were with the Red Sox, but I don't know how to do that with UZR. I didn't want to have tiny samples offensively and full season samples defensively.

[fromthestretch]

They were the big winner that season, but I don't think getting Mientkiewicz and Cabrera put them over the top.

 

They may not have put them over the top, but they did fill holes that Boston needed to fill since defense was a major concern that year. Without those two players (and Dave Roberts), I seriously doubt Boston wins the WS in 2004.

 

2004 UZR/150:

 

Nomar: -15.8

Cabrera: -2.3

 

2004 OPS:

 

Nomar: .842

Cabrera: .689

 

Was the defensive difference between the two enough to make up for the offensive gap? I doubt it.

 

orlando put a .785 ops as a red sox player

 

Nomar had an .867 OPS while in Boston.

 

I'd have broken it down to only when the players were with the Red Sox, but I don't know how to do that with UZR. I didn't want to have tiny samples offensively and full season samples defensively.

 

If you go to fangraphs, you can look at the 2004 Red Sox team and see the individual fielding stats for their players for that season.

 

From what I can see for UZR:

 

Nomar with the 2004 Sox: -8.6

Cabrera with the 2004 Sox: 1.1

[dew1679666265]

If you go to fangraphs, you can look at the 2004 Red Sox team and see the individual fielding stats for their players for that season.

 

From what I can see for UZR:

 

Nomar with the 2004 Sox: -8.6

Cabrera with the 2004 Sox: 1.1

 

Ok, thanks. Nomar was still the overall better player with the Reds Sox, it would appear.

[inari]

If you go to fangraphs, you can look at the 2004 Red Sox team and see the individual fielding stats for their players for that season.

 

From what I can see for UZR:

 

Nomar with the 2004 Sox: -8.6

Cabrera with the 2004 Sox: 1.1

 

Ok, thanks. Nomar was still the overall better player with the Reds Sox, it would appear.

 

Clearly not since the Red Sox won the World Series. FYI.

[SouthSideRyan]

Garland for Karchner was a good trade cause we made the playoffs and Karchner had a win for us

[rocket]

If you go to fangraphs, you can look at the 2004 Red Sox team and see the individual fielding stats for their players for that season.

 

From what I can see for UZR:

 

Nomar with the 2004 Sox: -8.6

Cabrera with the 2004 Sox: 1.1

 

Ok, thanks. Nomar was still the overall better player with the Reds Sox, it would appear.

 

you also have to take into account that nomar was a huge injury risk and missed a decent amount of time because of nagging injuries.

[dew1679666265]

If you go to fangraphs, you can look at the 2004 Red Sox team and see the individual fielding stats for their players for that season.

 

From what I can see for UZR:

 

Nomar with the 2004 Sox: -8.6

Cabrera with the 2004 Sox: 1.1

 

Ok, thanks. Nomar was still the overall better player with the Reds Sox, it would appear.

 

Clearly not since the Red Sox won the World Series. FYI.

 

I'm sorry.

[dew1679666265]

If you go to fangraphs, you can look at the 2004 Red Sox team and see the individual fielding stats for their players for that season.

 

From what I can see for UZR:

 

Nomar with the 2004 Sox: -8.6

Cabrera with the 2004 Sox: 1.1

 

Ok, thanks. Nomar was still the overall better player with the Reds Sox, it would appear.

 

you also have to take into account that nomar was a huge injury risk and missed a decent amount of time because of nagging injuries.

 

I still don't trade him for Cabrera. Instead, I'd look for a solid backup SS.