Guzman shut down

[Little Slide Rooter]

Yeah, it's unusual when teams have more than one "sure thing" in the bullpen. It's definitely a luxury if that's the case, and it's either the result of lucky development from within or paying way too much to make it happen.

 

Its not about sure things. Its about having that dependable set up man to get you to the closer. For the past 3 years, at least for the most part Marmol has been that guy. Now hes the closer, and while I dont mind a lot of the guys we have as middle relievers or mop up men, theres not a one Id trust to consistantly take a 1-2 run lead from the 8th to the 9th. I dont mind Grabow despite his foolish contract, which is hardly his fault but hes not that guy. Marshall or Silva? I dont think so either. There more long men if your starter burns out early. Then theres the pool of Stevens, Gaub, Berg, Samardzjia, Parisi, Caridad and maybe even Cashner. Granted, I wouldnt be surprised if at least one of these guys gave us a pleasant surprise as Marmol did in '07, but Id feel more comfortable with another vet, and at something like 1.5 mil, Calero would have been a nice gamble.

 

Waste of money. Why spend so much more gambling on a player when you can do it for much cheaper using someone already in the system? I'll never understand why some people are so quick to dump money on the most unreliable roles in baseball.

 

While I do agree, that unless your talking about a closer or a top of the line set up man, I dont like throwing big money at relievers, such as John Grabow, or Mike Remlinger. or Latroy Hawkins. or Bob Howry. or Scott Eyre. but if your talking about a 1 year deal in the 1.5-2.5 mil range for a quality veteran, especially when that is something that you sorely lack, I say go for it.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Sure you can. And it's a pipe dream to think the Cubs could get a reliever you "know will be good" at this point because they're all signed and nobody is trading them right now and even when they do it's for way too much. Plenty of pitching prospects to cyle through the bullpen.

 

That's the thing. I'm all for going after the good, consistent relievers out there (of which there are some). However, I don't know of any currently available. That's why I'm promoting the idea of going with what we've got and assessing again in a month or two.

 

I actually wonder If Starlin really impresses this spring, we could try to trade Theriot for a good reliever. That way, we have Starlin at SS with Blanco backing him up and Font and Baker platooning at 2nd.

[Post Count Padder]

Muskat tweeted that Guzman has a torn ligament in his shoulder and will miss Opening Day. Whether he needs surgery is unknown.

 

 

Just great.

[jb10194]

from cst_cubs:

Guzman shut down. Ligament tear. Shoulder instability. Surgery could be career threatening.

[NCCubFan]

Sure you can. And it's a pipe dream to think the Cubs could get a reliever you "know will be good" at this point because they're all signed and nobody is trading them right now and even when they do it's for way too much. Plenty of pitching prospects to cyle through the bullpen.

 

That's the thing. I'm all for going after the good, consistent relievers out there (of which there are some). However, I don't know of any currently available. That's why I'm promoting the idea of going with what we've got and assessing again in a month or two.

 

I actually wonder If Starlin really impresses this spring, we could try to trade Theriot for a good reliever. That way, we have Starlin at SS with Blanco backing him up and Font and Baker platooning at 2nd.

Not to start the season. There have been plenty of players that have had good springs but faltered when the regular season begins (see: Scott, Gary). Castro would need to show regular season success before Theriot becomes expendable. Maybe around the trade deadline.

[Sammy Sofa]

While I do agree, that unless your talking about a closer or a top of the line set up man, I dont like throwing big money at relievers, such as John Grabow, or Mike Remlinger. or Latroy Hawkins. or Bob Howry. or Scott Eyre. but if your talking about a 1 year deal in the 1.5-2.5 mil range for a quality veteran, especially when that is something that you sorely lack, I say go for it.

 

Why? If they're available now and for cheap it's because they suck. What is the point of shelling out that money, relatively little as it may be, to take a chance on a pile of crap just because he's a veteran? There are no truly quality veterans available on the cheap for the bullpen right now. None. Anyone you're getting that little at this time of the year is nothing but a gamble. Might as well take that gamble on the bevy of arms in the system already that won't cost anything extra. It's false hope to think there's a sure thing reliever just sitting out there right now waiting to be signed.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Sure you can. And it's a pipe dream to think the Cubs could get a reliever you "know will be good" at this point because they're all signed and nobody is trading them right now and even when they do it's for way too much. Plenty of pitching prospects to cyle through the bullpen.

 

That's the thing. I'm all for going after the good, consistent relievers out there (of which there are some). However, I don't know of any currently available. That's why I'm promoting the idea of going with what we've got and assessing again in a month or two.

 

I actually wonder If Starlin really impresses this spring, we could try to trade Theriot for a good reliever. That way, we have Starlin at SS with Blanco backing him up and Font and Baker platooning at 2nd.

Not to start the season. There have been plenty of players that have had good springs but faltered when the regular season begins (see: Scott, Gary). Castro would need to show regular season success before Theriot becomes expendable. Maybe around the trade deadline.

 

I dont know. Im not a Theriot hater, and while his bat is solid, we could make it without. Even if Castro did falter, our offense is well rounded enough to get by with Blanco at SS batting 8th.

 

What about Mike Adams of the Padres? I wouldnt trade Theriot for the 32 year old releiver, but hes one of those guys who always puts up solid numbers and goes un noticed. Surely the Pads would be willing to part with him for a few mid level prospects.

[Little Slide Rooter]

While I do agree, that unless your talking about a closer or a top of the line set up man, I dont like throwing big money at relievers, such as John Grabow, or Mike Remlinger. or Latroy Hawkins. or Bob Howry. or Scott Eyre. but if your talking about a 1 year deal in the 1.5-2.5 mil range for a quality veteran, especially when that is something that you sorely lack, I say go for it.

 

Why? If they're available now and for cheap it's because they suck. What is the point of shelling out that money, relatively little as it may be, to take a chance on a pile of crap just because he's a veteran? There are no truly quality veterans available on the cheap for the bullpen right now. None. Anyone you're getting that little at this time of the year is nothing but a gamble. Might as well take that gamble on the bevy of arms in the system already that won't cost anything extra. It's false hope to think there's a sure thing reliever just sitting out there right now waiting to be signed.

 

Were not looking for a sure thing. Just a vet. At this point, you're right, theres really nothing out there, but when Calero was available, at that price Hendry should have jumped at it. Maybe he was just confused by the concept of offering a middle releiver less than a 3 year deal.

[Sammy Sofa]

Who cares if they're a veteran? That means nothing. If they're available right now they stink.

[UMFan83]

from cst_cubs:

Guzman shut down. Ligament tear. Shoulder instability. Surgery could be career threatening.

 

Well geez. We enjoyed your career Angel...

[Old Style]

http://muskat.mlblogs.com/?partnerId=rss_chc

 

:bye:

[dew1679666265]

What about Mike Adams of the Padres? I wouldnt trade Theriot for the 32 year old releiver, but hes one of those guys who always puts up solid numbers and goes un noticed. Surely the Pads would be willing to part with him for a few mid level prospects.

 

I don't know why they'd trade him without getting a really good deal. He is 32, but he's put up very good numbers throughout his career and he's very cheap. The Padres really have little reason to trade him.

 

And that's the thing. Most teams are going to keep their better relievers right now and the consistently good relievers are not currently free agents (none that I know, at least). I don't want to see us bring in a mediocre vet just to have a vet.

[E.J.]

Damn you, Guzman. So much talent, but no ability to stay healthy. Sad. I hope it's not career-ending.

[Outshined_One]

Where I once wouldn't have been surprised to see Cashner in the bullpen come Opening Day, now I pretty much expect it.

[Guest]

Sure you can. And it's a pipe dream to think the Cubs could get a reliever you "know will be good" at this point because they're all signed and nobody is trading them right now and even when they do it's for way too much. Plenty of pitching prospects to cyle through the bullpen.

If Calero is on the mound, he's damn likely to be good.

[Sammy Sofa]

Sure you can. And it's a pipe dream to think the Cubs could get a reliever you "know will be good" at this point because they're all signed and nobody is trading them right now and even when they do it's for way too much. Plenty of pitching prospects to cyle through the bullpen.

If Calero is on the mound, he's damn likely to be good.

 

Still a crapshoot. Just use what you have.

[17 Seconds]

Who cares if they're a veteran? That means nothing. If they're available right now they stink.

 

scott downs has been rumored to be available all offseason and he definitely does not suck.

[17 Seconds]

Sure you can. And it's a pipe dream to think the Cubs could get a reliever you "know will be good" at this point because they're all signed and nobody is trading them right now and even when they do it's for way too much. Plenty of pitching prospects to cyle through the bullpen.

If Calero is on the mound, he's damn likely to be good.

 

Still a crapshoot. Just use what you have.

 

you seriously think the bullpen is good enough to compete right now? come on. i understand that bullpens are mostly a crapshoot, but relying on that when your bullpen looks like crap is pretty silly.

 

"our bullpen looks like it sucks total ass, but they're a crapshoot.... so let's just leave it."

[Sammy Sofa]

you seriously think the bullpen is good enough to compete right now? come on. i understand that bullpens are mostly a crapshoot, but relying on that when your bullpen looks like crap is pretty silly.

 

"our bullpen looks like it sucks total ass, but they're a crapshoot.... so let's just leave it."

 

I don't think it necessarily looks like crap. It could easily be crappy, but easily could be fine. It's little different this year from last minus Gregg and Heilman. Sure, you had Guzman last year, but he also missed time due to injury and you could argue that what he did was offset by Marmol's difficulties for most of the season. There's nobody who is considered a "reliable reliever" that the Cubs could get now without having to overpay. It doesn't matter if they're "available;" any team that's contacted by the Cubs for a reliever this early is going to realize that the Cubs think they're backed into a corner and it'll cost way too much. It's been 3 games; I'd prefer it if they waited to waste resources on relievers after seeing what guys are looking like as they get more into regular season form.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Sammy Sofa

[Derwood]

Who cares if they're a veteran? That means nothing. If they're available right now they stink.

 

scott downs has been rumored to be available all offseason and he definitely does not suck.

 

he sucked when he was with the Cubs last time around

 

/proving nothing

[17 Seconds]

you seriously think the bullpen is good enough to compete right now? come on. i understand that bullpens are mostly a crapshoot, but relying on that when your bullpen looks like crap is pretty silly.

 

"our bullpen looks like it sucks total ass, but they're a crapshoot.... so let's just leave it."

 

I don't think it necessarily looks like crap. It could easily be crappy, but easily could be fine. It's little different this year from last minus Gregg and Heilman. Sure, you had Guzman last year, but he also missed time due to injury and you could argue that what he did was offset by Marmol's difficulties for most of the season. There's nobody who is considered a "reliable reliever" that the Cubs could get now without having to overpay. It doesn't matter if they're "available;" any team that's contacted by the Cubs for a reliever this early is going to realize that the Cubs think they're backed into a corner and it'll cost way too much. It's been 3 games; I'd prefer it if they waited to waste resources on relievers after seeing what guys are looking like as they get more into regular season form.

 

why are you assuming that marmol isn't going to pitch like he did last year? he's a big question mark

 

guzman was pretty much the only reliever that the cubs had last year who was legitimately good, and now he's gone. we're going into the season without a single guy who we know will be good. that's a huge problem.

 

as for the leverage issue and teams knowing the cubs are "backed into a corner"..... what do you think it's going to be like if it's april and the cubs are scrambling for a reliever as their bullpen is throwing away games?

[Outshined_One]

guzman was pretty much the only reliever that the cubs had last year who was legitimately good, and now he's gone. we're going into the season without a single guy who we know will be good. that's a huge problem.

 

What makes you think Scott Downs, Jason Frasor, or any of the other potentially available relievers will be legitimately good? Downs struggled with injury problems last year and Frasor is coming off of a career year after three years of being a tick above average.

[CubColtPacer]

you seriously think the bullpen is good enough to compete right now? come on. i understand that bullpens are mostly a crapshoot, but relying on that when your bullpen looks like crap is pretty silly.

 

"our bullpen looks like it sucks total ass, but they're a crapshoot.... so let's just leave it."

 

I don't think it necessarily looks like crap. It could easily be crappy, but easily could be fine. It's little different this year from last minus Gregg and Heilman. Sure, you had Guzman last year, but he also missed time due to injury and you could argue that what he did was offset by Marmol's difficulties for most of the season. There's nobody who is considered a "reliable reliever" that the Cubs could get now without having to overpay. It doesn't matter if they're "available;" any team that's contacted by the Cubs for a reliever this early is going to realize that the Cubs think they're backed into a corner and it'll cost way too much. It's been 3 games; I'd prefer it if they waited to waste resources on relievers after seeing what guys are looking like as they get more into regular season form.

 

I agree that a bullpen made out of organizational parts could still be very good, but this bullpen makeup is going to be completely different than the one from last year. The Cubs only have 45 percent of their innings returning this year (this is not including Patton who likely won't see the bullpen this year but includes players like Marshall, Samardzija, and Gorzelanny and one of those players will not be in the bullpen). Out of their big four last year they have one returning. It will probably look a little closer to the bullpen that finished last year but that was a significantly different bullpen then the one that was there for most of the year.

 

A homegrown bullpen for the Cubs this year might be good for them going forward though. They were starting to have a logjam of possible relief pitchers piling up and their major league experiences have not been long enough to show if they are going to sink or swim (and some haven't even been able to get into the majors quite yet). A year of significant roles in the major league bullpen will show the Cubs which pitchers they need to continue to protect before their options are exhausted. On the 40 man right now they have Caridad/Berg/Gaub/Gray/Parker/Stevens who are all probably ready right now with Dolis/Mateo/Parisi/Patton and maybe even Atkins as also possible options.

 

That is a lot of pitchers who are already on the 40 man and have the bullpen in their future. Several of them need to be given a chance. It's definitely a risk to rely on them, but the Cubs have been developing this area of the farm system as a strength. They have to turn that strength into results at some point.

[Sammy Sofa]

why are you assuming that marmol isn't going to pitch like he did last year? he's a big question mark

 

Baed on past success and how he was significantly better in the 2nd half last year after he became the closer. Is he a sure thing? Nope. But almost no reliever is year to year.

 

guzman was pretty much the only reliever that the cubs had last year who was legitimately good, and now he's gone. we're going into the season without a single guy who we know will be good. that's a huge problem.

 

That in no way made him a guarentee to be good again this year, and even if he was there would have pretty much been the guarentee of missing time due to injury looming over him. If he was supposed to be the cornerstone of this bullpen then the Cubs were fucked to begin with.

 

as for the leverage issue and teams knowing the cubs are "backed into a corner"..... what do you think it's going to be like if it's april and the cubs are scrambling for a reliever as their bullpen is throwing away games?

 

Hopefully they're just cycling in new pitchers to try from the farm system. They're not going to use every single pitcher they have available by the end of April. You're right, it's never going to be cheap to significantly improve a bullpen, but why rush to have to pay that cost before you've effectively exhausted your in-house options, or to even see if you have a team that needs a better bullpen in the first place?

[Sammy Sofa]

you seriously think the bullpen is good enough to compete right now? come on. i understand that bullpens are mostly a crapshoot, but relying on that when your bullpen looks like crap is pretty silly.

 

"our bullpen looks like it sucks total ass, but they're a crapshoot.... so let's just leave it."

 

I don't think it necessarily looks like crap. It could easily be crappy, but easily could be fine. It's little different this year from last minus Gregg and Heilman. Sure, you had Guzman last year, but he also missed time due to injury and you could argue that what he did was offset by Marmol's difficulties for most of the season. There's nobody who is considered a "reliable reliever" that the Cubs could get now without having to overpay. It doesn't matter if they're "available;" any team that's contacted by the Cubs for a reliever this early is going to realize that the Cubs think they're backed into a corner and it'll cost way too much. It's been 3 games; I'd prefer it if they waited to waste resources on relievers after seeing what guys are looking like as they get more into regular season form.

 

I agree that a bullpen made out of organizational parts could still be very good, but this bullpen makeup is going to be completely different than the one from last year. The Cubs only have 45 percent of their innings returning this year (this is not including Patton who likely won't see the bullpen this year but includes players like Marshall, Samardzija, and Gorzelanny and one of those players will not be in the bullpen). Out of their big four last year they have one returning. It will probably look a little closer to the bullpen that finished last year but that was a significantly different bullpen then the one that was there for most of the year.

 

A homegrown bullpen for the Cubs this year might be good for them going forward though. They were starting to have a logjam of possible relief pitchers piling up and their major league experiences have not been long enough to show if they are going to sink or swim (and some haven't even been able to get into the majors quite yet). A year of significant roles in the major league bullpen will show the Cubs which pitchers they need to continue to protect before their options are exhausted. On the 40 man right now they have Caridad/Berg/Gaub/Gray/Parker/Stevens who are all probably ready right now with Dolis/Mateo/Parisi/Patton and maybe even Atkins as also possible options.

 

That is a lot of pitchers who are already on the 40 man and have the bullpen in their future. Several of them need to be given a chance. It's definitely a risk to rely on them, but the Cubs have been developing this area of the farm system as a strength. They have to turn that strength into results at some point.

 

Totally agree.