Rich Harden

[17 Seconds]

What's the deal? Why does he suck so bad this year?

[Cubbie Swagger]

He wasn't terrible tonight... I still have hope that he'll turn things around.

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm guessing he's hurt, but I have no basis for that guess other than poor performance and history.

[fasttrack21]

He wasn't terrible tonight... I still have hope that he'll turn things around.

Not terrible, no. But not good. Gave up two homers in a pitcher's park (what it that, 13 now this year?) and walked, what, four guys? He's clearly not even close to the pitcher he was last year. Fortunately, Lilly has been great this year otherwise who knows how far back the Cubs would be right now.

[Tracer Bullet]

those offspeed pitches (which I think are all some sort of change up) that were almost above the umpires head were a little ridiculous. I can't believe his mechanics are so bad that he's missing his spots by 4-6 feet. That's why I'm guessing something's hurt.

[JeffH]

When the Cubs acquired Rich Harden, he had maybe the best pure stuff in MLB. Now, his stuff is just ordinary, or worse.

 

Is that just bad luck or did the Cubs ruin him?

[badnews]

Rich Harden is a pain in the ass. It's like he is only capable of pitching well during certain obscure astrological configurations. It's a good thing he only needs to be healthy for the playoffs.

[rocket]

He wasn't terrible tonight... I still have hope that he'll turn things around.

Not terrible, no. But not good. Gave up two homers in a pitcher's park (what it that, 13 now this year?) and walked, what, four guys? He's clearly not even close to the pitcher he was last year. Fortunately, Lilly has been great this year otherwise who knows how far back the Cubs would be right now.

 

i think comerica park is a lot more hitter friendly now than it used to be.

[sneakypower]

He wasn't terrible tonight... I still have hope that he'll turn things around.

Not terrible, no. But not good. Gave up two homers in a pitcher's park (what it that, 13 now this year?) and walked, what, four guys? He's clearly not even close to the pitcher he was last year. Fortunately, Lilly has been great this year otherwise who knows how far back the Cubs would be right now.

 

i think comerica park is a lot more hitter friendly now than it used to be.

that's true, but it doesn't matter much when both HRs traveled > 400 ft

[Wheelimus]

At what point do we have a serious discussion about replacing Harden in the rotation with Marshall? Because I think he could do better.

 

I'm not really saying forever, but assuming they're finding nobody interested in trading for him...make up a reason to DL him and send him on another rehab assignment to try to figure things out.

 

Hope I'm wrong and he turns it around on his own. You have to assume it's more "body falling apart" than lack of interest, because this is a pretty huge year for him as far as his next contract goes.

[laurens]

He's always pitched better when well rested. Maybe platoon him with Marshall?

[kjfoster 1553]

He's always pitched better when well rested. Maybe platoon him with Marshall?

 

=D> :good:

[jersey cubs fan]

He's always pitched better when well rested. Maybe platoon him with Marshall?

 

I would definitely do whatever possible to give him more than 4 days rest before starts, or be prepared to piggyback he and Marshall, or eventually put him in the bullpen to pitch 1-2 innings 2-3 times per week.

[kjfoster 1553]

He's always pitched better when well rested. Maybe platoon him with Marshall?

 

I would definitely do whatever possible to give him more than 4 days rest before starts, or be prepared to piggyback he and Marshall, or eventually put him in the bullpen to pitch 1-2 innings 2-3 times per week.

 

If I were Lou, and I clearly am not, I would alternate starts with he and Marshall. I am not sure what that would do to Marshall's ability to come out of the pen on weeks that Harden was starting though.

[jersey cubs fan]

He's always pitched better when well rested. Maybe platoon him with Marshall?

 

I would definitely do whatever possible to give him more than 4 days rest before starts, or be prepared to piggyback he and Marshall, or eventually put him in the bullpen to pitch 1-2 innings 2-3 times per week.

 

If I were Lou, and I clearly am not, I would alternate starts with he and Marshall. I am not sure what that would do to Marshall's ability to come out of the pen on weeks that Harden was starting though.

 

If they alternated, presumably they could relieve 3-4 days before and after their start.

 

It could look something like this:

 

Monday- Harden start, Marshall available in pen

Tuesday - Harden unavailable, Marshal available in pen

Wednesday - Harden unavailable, Marshall available in pen

Thursday - Both unavailable

Friday - Harden potentially available in pen, Marshall unavailable

Saturday - Marshall starts, Harden available in pen

Sunday - Harden available, Marshall unavailable

Monday - Harden available, Marshall unavailable

Tuesday - Both unavailable

Wednesday - Marshall potentially available, Harden unavailable

Thursday - Harden starts, Marshall available

 

That's assuming no off days of course.

[kjfoster 1553]

He's always pitched better when well rested. Maybe platoon him with Marshall?

 

I would definitely do whatever possible to give him more than 4 days rest before starts, or be prepared to piggyback he and Marshall, or eventually put him in the bullpen to pitch 1-2 innings 2-3 times per week.

 

If I were Lou, and I clearly am not, I would alternate starts with he and Marshall. I am not sure what that would do to Marshall's ability to come out of the pen on weeks that Harden was starting though.

 

If they alternated, presumably they could relieve 3-4 days before and after their start.

 

It could look something like this:

 

Monday- Harden start, Marshall available in pen

Tuesday - Harden unavailable, Marshal available in pen

Wednesday - Harden unavailable, Marshall available in pen

Thursday - Both unavailable

Friday - Harden potentially available in pen, Marshall unavailable

Saturday - Marshall starts, Harden available in pen

Sunday - Harden available, Marshall unavailable

Monday - Harden available, Marshall unavailable

Tuesday - Both unavailable

Wednesday - Marshall potentially available, Harden unavailable

Thursday - Harden starts, Marshall available

 

That's assuming no off days of course.

 

I like how that looks, but if it was feasible in terms of the number of pitchers, I would avoid using Harden out of the pen at all costs. I am thinking give him the 9 days rest every time. Get that arm/body feeling real good.

[jersey cubs fan]

I like how that looks, but if it was feasible in terms of the number of pitchers, I would avoid using Harden out of the pen at all costs. I am thinking give him the 9 days rest every time. Get that arm/body feeling real good.

 

That's too extreme. I'd rather have him pitch every 5th day rotating between a 5-6 inning starter and the first guy out of the pen in a Marshall start.

[Cubbie Swagger]

How bout we just let him keep making his starts and see what happens? I don't see how it makes sense to pull a guy from the rotation after a start in which he gave up 2 earned runs...

[laurens]

How bout we just let him keep making his starts and see what happens? I don't see how it makes sense to pull a guy from the rotation after a start in which he gave up 2 earned runs...

 

His stuff was clearly not good last start. Normally he's a strike out machine, this year he clearly isn't. He's having serious control issues (his last start he threw change ups almost above the ump's head)

[Cubbie Swagger]

How bout we just let him keep making his starts and see what happens? I don't see how it makes sense to pull a guy from the rotation after a start in which he gave up 2 earned runs...

 

His stuff was clearly not good last start. Normally he's a strike out machine, this year he clearly isn't. He's having serious control issues (his last start he threw change ups almost above the ump's head)

Rich Harden has always been wildly effective... and he has had some games this year when he got his share of k's.

 

Like I said, I realize he has struggled, but I think it's waaaay to early to start talking about pulling him from the rotation.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Cubbie Swagger

[laurens]

How bout we just let him keep making his starts and see what happens? I don't see how it makes sense to pull a guy from the rotation after a start in which he gave up 2 earned runs...

 

His stuff was clearly not good last start. Normally he's a strike out machine, this year he clearly isn't. He's having serious control issues (his last start he threw change ups almost above the ump's head)

Rich Harden has always been effectively wild... and he has had some games this year when he got his share of k's.

 

Like I said, I realize he has struggled, but I think it's waaaay to early to start talking about pulling him from the rotation.

 

Oh, I didn't say anything about pulling him from the rotation entirely and so soon. But if he keeps struggling, I think a Harden/Marshall platoon would be pretty dominant.

[kjfoster 1553]

How bout we just let him keep making his starts and see what happens? I don't see how it makes sense to pull a guy from the rotation after a start in which he gave up 2 earned runs...

 

I wasn't suggesting it based on any recent start, or any group of starts for that matter. I have always been of the belief that Rich Harden = Mr. Glass. The less he pitches the more likely he is to stay healthy and be there in (I'm going to say it...) October.

[Wheelimus]

We also have to keep in mind that we only have Rich Harden for this year. And we're only 3 1/2 games back in the division. This isn't a question of not messing with a prospect. It's a question of how to get the best we can out of an asset we'll (likely) lose after this season.

 

Such as, I'm not really advocating this, but if were found out that Harden could really dial it up for just an inning or two...then he might be more valuable to us now in the bullpen. Of course, there are probably other considerations (how it would effect his FA rating for one) I'm not thinking of. But I don't think it's preposterous to at least consider it. If things are so dire we've thought about putting Soriano at 2nd, they're certainly dire enough to give a fresh look at our pitching staff and where they best can be used.

 

But certainly for the next month he should probably start, just on the hope that he pulls it together and someone comes calling a week before the deadline.

[UK1679666180]

He's not going to be 100% until he has surgery on his shoulder & even after that, there's not guarantee that he'll be where he was before.

 

He hasn't been healthy all year and is trying to get by, IMO.

[Irrelevant Dude]

At what point do we have a serious discussion about replacing Harden in the rotation with Marshall? Because I think he could do better.

The Cubs wouldn't dare do that. Who else could possibly face one left-handed batter each night in Marshall's place?