This team is just not very good

[jersey cubs fan]

who cares about winning games when you can have more guys batting on the other side of the plate.

 

i still can't believe how bad of a GM hendry is. i've never seen a gm turn a stacked team into garbage over one offseason

 

I don't think last year's team was stacked at all. They were balanced, and had most of their players either outperform expectations are reach the high end of their expectations. Most teams have guys underperform, and the 2008 Cubs got lucky that nobody really did that. I think the problem was Hendry assumed this was still a 97 win team, did nothing to actually improve them this offseason (despite the payroll going up while most others went down) and decided to tinker for quirky postseason matchups.

[Soul]

who cares about winning games when you can have more guys batting on the other side of the plate.

 

i still can't believe how bad of a GM hendry is. i've never seen a gm turn a stacked team into garbage over one offseason

 

I don't think last year's team was stacked at all. They were balanced, and had most of their players either outperform expectations are reach the high end of their expectations. Most teams have guys underperform, and the 2008 Cubs got lucky that nobody really did that. I think the problem was Hendry assumed this was still a 97 win team, did nothing to actually improve them this offseason (despite the payroll going up while most others went down) and decided to tinker for quirky postseason matchups.

 

As I recall, lots of people assumed this was a natural 97-win team, not just Hendry.

[David]

As long as this team is only 4 games out of first, there's still a chance to win the division. As long as they win the division (or make the playoffs at all), they have a chance to win the World Series.

 

Even if they win the division, this team is not winning the World Series.

 

I love statements like this that have no basis in reality.

 

 

If they win the division, they have approximately a 1/8 chance of winning the World Series. Just like every other playoff team (some marginally more, some marginally less). There's no curses, jinxes, or inherent failure genes in the players. There's nothing to keep bad players from playing very well or great players from playing very poorly in a stretch of a few games, especially in a game like baseball.

 

 

I don't understand why people continue to make absolute statements like this when it's obvious that the playoffs in baseball are, for all intents and purposes, a slightly weighted crapshoot.

[jersey cubs fan]

who cares about winning games when you can have more guys batting on the other side of the plate.

 

i still can't believe how bad of a GM hendry is. i've never seen a gm turn a stacked team into garbage over one offseason

 

I don't think last year's team was stacked at all. They were balanced, and had most of their players either outperform expectations are reach the high end of their expectations. Most teams have guys underperform, and the 2008 Cubs got lucky that nobody really did that. I think the problem was Hendry assumed this was still a 97 win team, did nothing to actually improve them this offseason (despite the payroll going up while most others went down) and decided to tinker for quirky postseason matchups.

 

As I recall, lots of people assumed this was a natural 97-win team, not just Hendry.

 

I recall a lot of people thinking this team might win 90 and win the division by default if the competition stayed in the 80s.

[jersey cubs fan]

As long as this team is only 4 games out of first, there's still a chance to win the division. As long as they win the division (or make the playoffs at all), they have a chance to win the World Series.

 

Even if they win the division, this team is not winning the World Series.

 

I love statements like this that have no basis in reality.

 

 

If they win the division, they have approximately a 1/8 chance of winning the World Series. Just like every other playoff team (some marginally more, some marginally less). There's no curses, jinxes, or inherent failure genes in the players. There's nothing to keep bad players from playing very well or great players from playing very poorly in a stretch of a few games, especially in a game like baseball.

 

 

I don't understand why people continue to make absolute statements like this when it's obvious that the playoffs in baseball are, for all intents and purposes, a slightly weighted crapshoot.

 

But you have to have heart to play craps, Cubs don't have the heart.

[Soul]

who cares about winning games when you can have more guys batting on the other side of the plate.

 

i still can't believe how bad of a GM hendry is. i've never seen a gm turn a stacked team into garbage over one offseason

 

I don't think last year's team was stacked at all. They were balanced, and had most of their players either outperform expectations are reach the high end of their expectations. Most teams have guys underperform, and the 2008 Cubs got lucky that nobody really did that. I think the problem was Hendry assumed this was still a 97 win team, did nothing to actually improve them this offseason (despite the payroll going up while most others went down) and decided to tinker for quirky postseason matchups.

 

As I recall, lots of people assumed this was a natural 97-win team, not just Hendry.

 

I recall a lot of people thinking this team might win 90 and win the division by default if the competition stayed in the 80s.

 

Still lots of baseball to be played yet, but the idea that the rest of the Central would stand still was probably a bit.......ill-advised, I guess.

[chasinf5s]

Wasn't woody and Derosa 2 of the bigger leaders in the clubhouse? i know at least Wood was

[David]

Lack of clubhouse leadership is why everyone not from Japan in our lineup is OPSing like 100 points below where they should be and why we've had to replace our best hitter with a complete offensive void.

[Soul]

I just need this team to start playing better because otherwise my 3 trips to Wrigley are going to be unhappy. That is all.

[chasinf5s]

Lack of clubhouse leadership is why everyone not from Japan in our lineup is OPSing like 100 points below where they should be and why we've had to replace our best hitter with a complete offensive void.

 

im not saying that it was a direct effect but this team looks lazy and unmotivated, completely different from last year.

[CubColtPacer]

Lack of clubhouse leadership is why everyone not from Japan in our lineup is OPSing like 100 points below where they should be and why we've had to replace our best hitter with a complete offensive void.

 

im not saying that it was a direct effect but this team looks lazy and unmotivated, completely different from last year.

 

All their emotional outbursts don't show motivation?

 

Most people would say that the team is out of control with their passion. I don't see how the team could possibly be called unmotivated.

[dew1679666265]

As long as this team is only 4 games out of first, there's still a chance to win the division. As long as they win the division (or make the playoffs at all), they have a chance to win the World Series.

 

Even if they win the division, this team is not winning the World Series.

 

Anything can happen if you just get to the postseason. I don't know that they will, but this team can win in the playoffs.

[Arnold Layne]

Team stinks, period. It has a bad GM too.

[NewUserName]

I think we have to consider that besides Fukudome, this has been the ultimate Murphy's Law year. If something could go wrong it has. This is not an attempt to clear management of some blunders, but I think you would have to be hard pressed to think that all of the problems they have had would arise.

[Arnold Layne]

I think we have to consider that besides Fukudome, this has been the ultimate Murphy's Law year. If something could go wrong it has. This is not an attempt to clear management of some blunders, but I think you would have to be hard pressed to think that all of the problems they have had would arise.

 

I don't see any of thse things as surprises.

 

1. Bradley. We knew he would only play around 300 games a year. He's an aging member of the walking wounded and this was bound to effect performance. Is it any coincidence that he hit just fine last year as a *DH*, and isn't hitting this year while playing the field?

 

2. Lee. His numbers have been declining for quite some time. This is not a surprise.

 

3. Soto. Had a great rookie year. He's been the biggest bust so far, offensively and defensively.

 

4. Soriano. Streaky, low OBP lead off man. That's what he does. He can carry a team when he is on, but expect substandard performance when he is not.

 

5. Ramirez. Bummer. Injuries happen ,and $140 millon payrolls allow you the flexibility to overcome them. This GM isn't smart enough to do that.

 

6. The bullpen. Created completely by design,and a complete failure.

 

When I look at the two biggest failures of this offseason, I see horrific choices made concerning the bullpen and the absolutely laughable signing of Milton Bradley for $10 million over Adam Dunn, who is a proven imapct player in the NL and who also signed for $10 mill per. With a bat like Dunn at #3 or #4, the loss of Ramirez isn't as significant.

[dew1679666265]

1. Bradley. We knew he would only play around 300 games a year. He's an aging member of the walking wounded and this was bound to effect performance. Is it any coincidence that he hit just fine last year as a *DH*, and isn't hitting this year while playing the field?

 

First off, I'd be shocked and ecstatic if he found a way to play 300 games a year. :D

 

Second, he's played the field fairly recently in the past and hit fine. Injury has been a concern with him, not production. His lack of the latter is a pretty major surprise.

 

2. Lee. His numbers have been declining for quite some time. This is not a surprise.

 

The fact that he's got over a .900 OPS the past month isn't a surprise. He's also not been that much of a disappointment.

 

3. Soto. Had a great rookie year. He's been the biggest bust so far, offensively and defensively.

 

And, by definition, a bust is a surprise.

 

4. Soriano. Streaky, low OBP lead off man. That's what he does. He can carry a team when he is on, but expect substandard performance when he is not.

 

This is far more substandard than he's ever given us or anyone.

 

5. Ramirez. Bummer. Injuries happen ,and $140 millon payrolls allow you the flexibility to overcome them. This GM isn't smart enough to do that.

 

A major injury is still a surprise and can't be predicted, though.

 

6. The bullpen. Created completely by design,and a complete failure.

 

The bullpen has been worse than expected, but you can't tell me you expected Marmol to be bad.

 

When I look at the two biggest failures of this offseason, I see horrific choices made concerning the bullpen and the absolutely laughable signing of Milton Bradley for $10 million over Adam Dunn, who is a proven imapct player in the NL and who also signed for $10 mill per. With a bat like Dunn at #3 or #4, the loss of Ramirez isn't as significant.

 

Bradley is a proven impact bat as well. I preferred Dunn, but Bradley's signing was far from laughable.

[NewUserName]

I think we have to consider that besides Fukudome, this has been the ultimate Murphy's Law year. If something could go wrong it has. This is not an attempt to clear management of some blunders, but I think you would have to be hard pressed to think that all of the problems they have had would arise.

 

I don't see any of thse things as surprises.

 

1. Bradley. We knew he would only play around 300 games a year. He's an aging member of the walking wounded and this was bound to effect performance. Is it any coincidence that he hit just fine last year as a *DH*, and isn't hitting this year while playing the field?

 

2. Lee. His numbers have been declining for quite some time. This is not a surprise.

 

3. Soto. Had a great rookie year. He's been the biggest bust so far, offensively and defensively.

 

4. Soriano. Streaky, low OBP lead off man. That's what he does. He can carry a team when he is on, but expect substandard performance when he is not.

 

5. Ramirez. Bummer. Injuries happen ,and $140 millon payrolls allow you the flexibility to overcome them. This GM isn't smart enough to do that.

 

6. The bullpen. Created completely by design,and a complete failure.

 

When I look at the two biggest failures of this offseason, I see horrific choices made concerning the bullpen and the absolutely laughable signing of Milton Bradley for $10 million over Adam Dunn, who is a proven imapct player in the NL and who also signed for $10 mill per. With a bat like Dunn at #3 or #4, the loss of Ramirez isn't as significant.

 

I think Soto being this bad has been a surprise. To say he may come down some was probably not a surprise, but I dont think anyone expected him to be this bad.

 

Anyway I understand that all 6 of those things you listed were possibly true and at least 5 not a big surprise. But it also wouldnt have been a shock if they all went the other way. What I said was that they all have gone bad, and could you have really expected that before the season. If 3 of those things listed are just playing up to career norms, the Cubs would probably be in first place.

 

Which leads to this. You would have to expect that several players will at least start to come back to career norms at some point(actually some are moving in that direction currently). All this being said, the best you could possibly say about Hendry's offseason is BAD

[Arnold Layne]

First off, I'd be shocked and ecstatic if he found a way to play 300 games a year. :D

 

And you are happy with the signing knowing that?

 

 

Second, he's played the field fairly recently in the past and hit fine. Injury has been a concern with him, not production. His lack of the latter is a pretty major surprise.

 

He had 19 games in the field last year. What was it the year before that?

 

The fact that he's got over a .900 OPS the past month isn't a surprise. He's also not been that much of a disappointment.

 

Right. Hard to be disappointing when no one expects much any more. The lack of power is a major concern.

 

 

This is far more substandard than he's ever given us or anyone.

 

Really? I thought his playoff statistics were a pretty decent indicator of the depths he can sink to.

 

A major injury is still a surprise and can't be predicted, though.

 

Maybe, but $140 mill should cushion.

 

 

The bullpen has been worse than expected, but you can't tell me you expected Marmol to be bad.

 

Marmol was not all roses last year. He had some control issues. That said, one man does not make a bullpen. The Cubs bullpen as currently constructed is not on a competent level, let alone a level indicating a $140 million payroll.

 

 

Bradley is a proven impact bat as well. I preferred Dunn, but Bradley's signing was far from laughable.

 

I think it was laughable when you look at it in the context of the Cubs needed to shore up a problematic spot in RF. If that position is plaguing you year in and year out, is the first thing that comes to your mind " injury prone DH"?

Edited June 3, 2009 by Arnold Layne

[Soul]

We should bounce back at some point, both in terms of health and performance.

 

Many a team has bounced back only to find the hole they dug was just too deep, though.

 

In '07 we were like 8 games out at one point, IIRC. Nothing's over. It's just really hard to watch this crap right now, that's all.

[jersey cubs fan]

4. Soriano. Streaky' date=' low OBP lead off man. That's what he does. He can carry a team when he is on, but expect substandard performance when he is not.[/quote']

 

This is far more substandard than he's ever given us or anyone.

 

That is just all kinds of nonsense. Soriano was never a superstar. His is producing right now at 33, at just about the same rate he produced at 28 for Texas. He is well outside his peak age range, and nothing he has done can be considered surprising. Everybody with a brain knew the contract was bad. Everybody knew his best years would be in the beginning, and that it could get ugly. I don't believe he scratched the surface of how ugly he can get down the road. Furthermore what he's done this year is one good month and one bad. And he's had plenty of bad months in his career.

 

 

Nothing that has happened can be considered shocking. Soto didn't have spring training, got fat, and now he stinks. That happens. The closest "surprise" is Bradley struggling, but that can't be considered entirely flukey, given his age and injury history, plus the lack of a longterm track record of significant success.

 

High payroll teams have to be built to withstand setbacks, the Cubs didn't really suffer any last year, but now they are going through what teams go through all the time, and looking really weak in the process.

[Soul]

Nothing that has happened can be considered shocking. Soto didn't have spring training, got fat, and now he stinks. That happens. The closest "surprise" is Bradley struggling, but that can't be considered entirely flukey, given his age and injury history, plus the lack of a longterm track record of significant success.

 

I think the volume of injuries across the roster is a surprise. I think I posted I was concerned about injuries before the season began, but I didn't expect this much.

 

Soto's fallback isn't surprising to me. Maybe the depth of it, but not the fallback itself.

 

Bradley's injuries aren't a surprise. His continued struggles are, but I should have known better.

 

Fonty's struggles aren't surprising to me. I was always suspicious that he would fall off as a starter.

 

Harden/Zambrano injuries -- knew that was likely to happen.

 

Lee -- nobody can claim this is a surprise.

 

Soriano -- he's doing what he always does, hot/cold. He'll probably get hot again, then cold, then hot. Streaky is part of his whole deal.

 

Demp -- everyone was predicting a drop off.

 

I pretty much agree. It's either not surprising, or we should have been able to see it as a possibility.

[dew1679666265]

4. Soriano. Streaky' date=' low OBP lead off man. That's what he does. He can carry a team when he is on, but expect substandard performance when he is not.[/quote']

 

This is far more substandard than he's ever given us or anyone.

 

That is just all kinds of nonsense. Soriano was never a superstar. His is producing right now at 33, at just about the same rate he produced at 28 for Texas. He is well outside his peak age range, and nothing he has done can be considered surprising. Everybody with a brain knew the contract was bad. Everybody knew his best years would be in the beginning, and that it could get ugly. I don't believe he scratched the surface of how ugly he can get down the road. Furthermore what he's done this year is one good month and one bad. And he's had plenty of bad months in his career.

 

 

Nothing that has happened can be considered shocking. Soto didn't have spring training, got fat, and now he stinks. That happens. The closest "surprise" is Bradley struggling, but that can't be considered entirely flukey, given his age and injury history, plus the lack of a longterm track record of significant success.

 

High payroll teams have to be built to withstand setbacks, the Cubs didn't really suffer any last year, but now they are going through what teams go through all the time, and looking really weak in the process.

 

I'm not questioning that the team was built poorly this past offseason, but Soto being awful, Bradley being awful and Ramirez going out for most of the year were not expected occurences. If the former two were just struggling, that'd be one thing, but they've been horrific - and that is a surprise.

 

As for Soriano, I was talking more about his recent mega-slump. A .455 OPS over a two-week period is not normal for a slumping Soriano. And yes, his contract will get bad but there's little reason to expect him to be bad this year. His overall numbers are ok considering the awful slump, but the past two weeks have been a surprise.

[jersey cubs fan]

Nothing that has happened can be considered shocking. Soto didn't have spring training, got fat, and now he stinks. That happens. The closest "surprise" is Bradley struggling, but that can't be considered entirely flukey, given his age and injury history, plus the lack of a longterm track record of significant success.

 

I think the volume of injuries across the roster is a surprise. I think I posted I was concerned about injuries before the season began, but I didn't expect this much.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Harden was a lock to get injured and miss significant time, same with Bradley. And Ramirez was always one misstep away from getting injured. You can't say Aramis missing time was some sort of unforeseen shock. He was always going to miss time, the question was how much. Lee breaking his wrist was a crazy flukey thing that couldn't be accounted for. Aramis reinjuring a shoulder with the same injury he had earlier in his career is not the least bit surprising. It sucks yes, but it's not shocking.

 

This is what happens when you have an old team, like the Cubs, and no young everyday players capable of picking up the slack and carrying a team. The numbers of 30+ year old players and guys with significant injury histories is troublesome.

 

You can't push off the struggles on surprise.

[dew1679666265]

First off, I'd be shocked and ecstatic if he found a way to play 300 games a year. :D

 

And you are happy with the signing knowing that?

 

First off there are only 162 games a year, I was being facetious because you said 300 a year. I guess you meant 100 games a year and that's what I expected. I'm not surprised by the injuries, I am by the performance.

 

Second, he's played the field fairly recently in the past and hit fine. Injury has been a concern with him, not production. His lack of the latter is a pretty major surprise.

 

He had 19 games in the field last year. What was it the year before that?

 

Every game he played (62) in 2007 he spent in the outfield. 2008 is the only year of his career that he's spent a majority of the time as a DH and he's still been productive in the field in those years.

 

The fact that he's got over a .900 OPS the past month isn't a surprise. He's also not been that much of a disappointment.

 

Right. Hard to be disappointing when no one expects much any more. The lack of power is a major concern.

 

Yeah, the lack of power is a concern, but he's still been productive. Lee is not a suprise, though.

 

This is far more substandard than he's ever given us or anyone.

 

Really? I thought his playoff statistics were a pretty decent indicator of the depths he can sink to.

 

Let me know when he hits that way over 162 games and then I won't be surprised by it.

 

A major injury is still a surprise and can't be predicted, though.

 

Maybe, but $140 mill should cushion.

 

Yes, but that's not what the discussion was about. The discussion was about whether it was a surprise. And it was.

 

The bullpen has been worse than expected, but you can't tell me you expected Marmol to be bad.

 

Marmol was not all roses last year. He had some control issues. That said, one man does not make a bullpen. The Cubs bullpen as currently constructed is not on a competent level, let alone a level indicating a $140 million payroll.

 

If Marmol weren't walking a man per inning, he'd be a much more stabilizing force in the pen. Otherwise, I agree the rest of the pen hasn't been particularly good - and that's not a shock.

 

Bradley is a proven impact bat as well. I preferred Dunn, but Bradley's signing was far from laughable.

 

I think it was laughable when you look at it in the context of the Cubs needed to shore up a problematic spot in RF. If that position is plaguing you year in and year out, is the first thing that comes to your mind " injury prone DH"?

 

The first thing that comes to mind is that we needed good to great production. Historically, both Bradley and Dunn have been highly productive players. Bradley had health issues and Dunn had defensive issues, so neither was a sure thing player, but both were good options.

[jersey cubs fan]

The first thing that comes to mind is that we needed good to great production. Historically, both Bradley and Dunn have been highly productive players. Bradley had health issues and Dunn had defensive issues, so neither was a sure thing player, but both were good options.

 

Historically Bradley has about 2 years of great production and Dunn was always the clear winner on the "likelihood to keep being productive" scale. You don't really want to talk "historically" if you are trying to pimp Bradley over Dunn. It was all about hoping 2007/2008 were real and he was capable of maintaining those numbers. Bradley had the upside hopes, Dunn had the better track record.