ESPN: Cedeno & Olson Traded for Heilman (P. 4)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

That improves his standing as a starter, since relievers tend to have a much lower ERA. You do know that, right?

what's the league average for a SP and a RP?

 

Last year

Starter: 4.46

Reliever: 4.09

 

2007

Starter: 4.64

Reliever: 4.20

thanks. i didnt think that it was "much lower" as kylejrm said.

 

where'd you find that info, by the way?

 

Semantics. The point is that you said we shouldn't use ERA+ because Marquis should be compared to other starters and not to the league as a whole.

 

When you do that, you add roughly 10% to his value, not subtract. Whether or not 10% is "much lower" or "somewhat lower" is irrelevant.

[CubColtPacer]

That improves his standing as a starter, since relievers tend to have a much lower ERA. You do know that, right?

what's the league average for a SP and a RP?

 

Last year

Starter: 4.46

Reliever: 4.09

 

2007

Starter: 4.64

Reliever: 4.20

thanks. i didnt think that it was "much lower" as kylejrm said.

 

where'd you find that info, by the way?

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?sort=ERA&split=127&group=9&season=2008&seasonType=2&statType=pitching&type=reg

 

bottom of the page. That's filtered into starting pitching only..you'd then filter it by reliever only to get bullpen numbers.

[cubbinalltheway]

Who is available *right now* who is better than Marquis?

 

I didn't mean "find one" in the sense of saying "a-ha, there you are. I see you!" to Bronson Arroyo.

 

I meant someone we could actually acquire.

ben sheets is the obvious answer. randy wolf, kris benson... there's three off the top of my head. want me to name more?

 

Ben Sheets is hurt, Randy Wolf and Kris Benson are close, but not superior to, Marquis.

lol, randy wolf is a far superior pitcher to jason marquis.

 

ben sheets isn't hurt.

 

the point is, there are plenty of people who are better than jason freaking marquis. he's a5th starter who makes 10m for crying out loud.

 

i cant believe i'm actually in a discussion regarding the absurdity of the statement "where are we going to find someone better than jason marquis"

[Tyrant]

Who is available *right now* who is better than Marquis?

 

I didn't mean "find one" in the sense of saying "a-ha, there you are. I see you!" to Bronson Arroyo.

 

I meant someone we could actually acquire.

ben sheets is the obvious answer. randy wolf, kris benson... there's three off the top of my head. want me to name more?

 

Kris Benson? He hasn't pitched in the majors in two years, he's 34 and he stunk to high heaven in Triple-A last year. You really think he's better than Marquis?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

ben sheets isn't hurt.

 

Yes, he is.

 

lol, randy wolf is a far superior pitcher to jason marquis.

 

 

Umm, prove it. Especially factoring in durability.

 

 

the point is, there are plenty of people who are better than jason freaking marquis. he's a5th starter who makes 10m for crying out loud.

 

How much he makes is irrelevant to how good he is. And yes, there are a lot of pitchers better than him. Those pitchers do not generally hit the open market, and they certainly aren't still floating around until late January.

 

 

i cant believe i'm actually in a discussion regarding the absurdity of the statement "where are we going to find someone better than jason marquis"

 

Stick around, you'll learn a few more things before the offseason is over :)

[BigbadB]

Marquis is not a great pitcher. I actually kind of despise the guy. But, for the 10m he was getting, you could count on him to pile up innings and not miss his starts.

 

The Cubs were 17-12 in games that Marquis started last year, which is nearly a 66% winning percentage.

 

He's not a 10m pitcher, but he was good enough as a #5 to keep around if you don't have someone better to throw in there. Especially if you are paying most of his salary to pitch for someone else.

[cubbinalltheway]

lol, randy wolf is a far superior pitcher to jason marquis.

 

 

Umm, prove it. Especially factoring in durability.

three year splits...

wolf -- 4.63 ERA, 300/143 K/BB

marquis -- 5.08 ERA, 296/221 K/BB

 

proof enough?

Edited January 29, 2009 by cubbinalltheway

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Marquis is not a great pitcher. I actually kind of despise the guy. But, for the 10m he was getting, you could count on him to pile up innings and not miss his starts.

 

The Cubs were 17-12 in games that Marquis started last year, which is nearly a 66% winning percentage.

 

He's not a 10m pitcher, but he was good enough as a #5 to keep around if you don't have someone better to throw in there. Especially if you are paying most of his salary to pitch for someone else.

 

I'd take him as a No. 4 on a decent pitching staff, and he'd be the third-best pitcher on a fair number of bad teams.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

lol, randy wolf is a far superior pitcher to jason marquis.

 

 

Umm, prove it. Especially factoring in durability.

three year splits...

wolf -- 4.63 ERA, 300/143 K/BB

marquis -- 5.08 ERA, 296/2021 K/BB

 

proof enough?

 

What parks did Wolf throw most of those innings in?

[cubbinalltheway]

lol, randy wolf is a far superior pitcher to jason marquis.

 

 

Umm, prove it. Especially factoring in durability.

three year splits...

wolf -- 4.63 ERA, 300/143 K/BB

marquis -- 5.08 ERA, 296/2021 K/BB

 

proof enough?

 

What parks did Wolf throw most of those innings in?

do you have access to baseball-reference? look it up if you really want to know.

[BigbadB]

lol, randy wolf is a far superior pitcher to jason marquis.

 

 

Umm, prove it. Especially factoring in durability.

three year splits...

wolf -- 4.63 ERA, 300/143 K/BB

marquis -- 5.08 ERA, 296/221 K/BB

 

proof enough?

 

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

[cubbinalltheway]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

Umm, that really doesn't make any sense. At all.

 

If durability doesn't matter, neither do runs.

[Keener98]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

Thats ridiculous. Durability has to matter in all discussions regarding a pitcher. Wolf taxes bullpens while not being that good, at least Marquis has a history of eating innings and saving a teams bullpen a little bit.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

do you have access to baseball-reference? look it up if you really want to know.

 

I know the answer. I'm wondering if you know.

 

There seem to be some very relevant things to this discussion that you just plain are unaware of, such as the fact that relievers tend to have better ERAs than starters.

[cubbinalltheway]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

Umm, that really doesn't make any sense. At all.

 

If durability doesn't matter, neither do runs.

good lord. youre that said we're talking about how good marquis is, not his salary. so somehow durability matters but salary doesnt to this discussion?

[BigbadB]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

I disagree. Salary doesn't matter because Marquis was already a sunk cost. The fact they are paying a significant portion of his contract to pitch for someone else this year certainly matters if you are just going to replace Marquis with someone like Randy Wolf. If you give Randy Wolf 8m this year to finish out the back of the rotation, essentially, you are paying him 12m (adding in the 5m that the Cubs are paying Marquis to pitch for the Rockies) to potentially be a worse pitcher than Marquis.

[cubbinalltheway]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

Thats ridiculous. Durability has to matter in all discussions regarding a pitcher. Wolf taxes bullpens while not being that good, at least Marquis has a history of eating innings and saving a teams bullpen a little bit.

agreed. and so does salary. i'm just trying to stay within the ever-changing parameters of this discussion. i thought we were just talking about how good a player is.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

Umm, that really doesn't make any sense. At all.

 

If durability doesn't matter, neither do runs.

good lord. youre that said we're talking about how good marquis is, not his salary. so somehow durability matters but salary doesnt to this discussion?

 

 

The ability to take the mound without hurting your arm is a factor in how good of a pitcher you are.

 

The number on your paycheck is not.

[cubbinalltheway]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

Umm, that really doesn't make any sense. At all.

 

If durability doesn't matter, neither do runs.

good lord. youre that said we're talking about how good marquis is, not his salary. so somehow durability matters but salary doesnt to this discussion?

 

The ability to take the mound without hurting your arm is a factor in how good of a pitcher you are.

no, it's definitely not.

 

you asked for proof of how wolf is a better pitcher than marquis. i gave it to you. why cant you just admit that wolf is better and end this silly argument? jesus, it's fairly obvious.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

no, it's definitely not.

 

Mark Prior for Cy Young, then. The number of innings a pitcher is capable of pitching apparently has nothing to do with how good they are.

 

you asked for proof of how wolf is a better pitcher than marquis. i gave it to you. why cant you just admit that wolf is better and end this silly argument? jesus, it's fairly obvious.

 

You gave me bad proof. The ability to put up a 5.00 ERA (even given that you cherrypicked your endpoint on the stats) in the parks Marquis has pitched in is roughly equivalent to the ability to put up a 4.60 ERA in Dodger Stadium and Petco.

[BigbadB]

You are missing the durability factor.

 

Wolf- 109 IP AVG over the last 3 years

Marquis- 184 IP AVG over the last 3 years

if salary doesnt matter in this discussion, then neither does durability.

 

Umm, that really doesn't make any sense. At all.

 

If durability doesn't matter, neither do runs.

good lord. youre that said we're talking about how good marquis is, not his salary. so somehow durability matters but salary doesnt to this discussion?

 

The ability to take the mound without hurting your arm is a factor in how good of a pitcher you are.

no, it's definitely not.

 

you asked for proof of how wolf is a better pitcher than marquis. i gave it to you. why cant you just admit that wolf is better and end this silly argument? jesus, it's fairly obvious.

 

I'd say you haven't proved it enough to end the argument, otherwise the argument would be over.

 

There was a time when Randy Wolf was definitely a better pitcher than Marquis. But, that was before he got hurt. Now? It's too difficult to say.

[cubbinalltheway]

You gave me bad proof. The ability to put up a 5.00 ERA (even given that you cherrypicked your endpoint on the stats) in the parks Marquis has pitched in is roughly equivalent to the ability to put up a 4.60 ERA in Dodger Stadium and Petco.

cherrypicked the endpoint? umm, if you want to include a 4th year, wolf is still better.

 

and how is it roughly equivalent? because you say so? like you said that relievers ERA's are usually a lot lower than starters (they're not)? sorry, but you're going to have to give me something better than that before i'm convinced.

[cubbinalltheway]

There was a time when Randy Wolf was definitely a better pitcher than Marquis. But, that was before he got hurt. Now? It's too difficult to say.

it's really not though, that's the thing. all you have to do is look at their statistics to see who the better pitcher is/has been. who will be better in '09? no one knows, obviously. but based on past performance, wolf is the better bet.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

You gave me bad proof. The ability to put up a 5.00 ERA (even given that you cherrypicked your endpoint on the stats) in the parks Marquis has pitched in is roughly equivalent to the ability to put up a 4.60 ERA in Dodger Stadium and Petco.

cherrypicked the endpoint? umm, if you want to include a 4th year, wolf is still better.

 

and how is it roughly equivalent? because you say so? like you said that relievers ERA's are usually a lot lower than starters (they're not)? sorry, but you're going to have to give me something better than that before i'm convinced.

 

Okay.

 

So you want me to prove to you that parks effect ERA?