Pie

[CubsWin]

This has probably been covered in existing threads already, but I don't understand the Gathright signing at all. Why spend the extra money (800 grand is still 800 grand) when dollars are obviously tight? They already have Pie who can provide the speed that Gathright has and most likely much better defense. Pie showed improvement last year, slight though it was, over the previous season, and finished last season on a high note. What he needs is time in the bigs. I understand that he can't be given a starting job, but what would be so wrong with having him on the bench? He turns 24 in a couple of weeks. There are quite a few examples of players that realize their potential at the plate after that age.

 

Can anyone explain to me what Gathright provides that is worth giving up on Pie? Does Hendry still believe the Peavy trade can happen before the season starts? Does he have a deal in place for Pie that he likes in case the Peavy thing doesn't happen? From where I sit, he better...

[Schwarber Fan]

I think the thought is to try and get something for Pie before his trade value completely diminishes.

[Backtobanks]

I think the thought is to try and get something for Pie before his trade value completely diminishes.

 

Yeah, he's a goner. Once Lou loses faith in you it's over. For all of the praise Lou gets about playing young players (compared to Dusty), he reverts back to vets if the young player doesn't produce immediately. I think Hendry would have given him a real shot, but Hendry listens to his managers' requests (sometimes too much).

[17 Seconds]

I think the thought is to try and get something for Pie before his trade value completely diminishes.

 

the problem is that hendry is going to get nothing at all for him with the way he's handled it.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I think the thought is to try and get something for Pie before his trade value completely diminishes.

 

the problem is that hendry is going to get nothing at all for him with the way he's handled it.

 

Come on now, when was the last time the Cubs had a one time top prospect who seemed to have all the tools whose career didnt seem to be going as planned, and by the time the organization finally gave up on him it was too late to get anything for him? Never, thats when.

 

In all honesty, I feel that Pie does have what it takes to be a productive, but not all star major league player, but with Fukudome and Bradley, it wont be with us.

[DiamondMind]

Corey Patterson irreversibly scarred the Cubs as far as young CF's are concerned.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Gaithright isn't the reason they've given up on Pie, it's the result.

 

I'm not sure what sort of "value" the Cubs are even in a position to get for him. You aren't going to get a similar talent with options left. You don't really want or need any MLB position players, he's not good enough of a prospect to net you a quality fifth starter or a good bullpen arm.

 

Unless he's part of a Peavy haul, I'm not sure where there's a trade for him.

[abuck1220]

every gm in baseball would rather have felix pie than joey gathright. except jim hendry.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

every gm in baseball would rather have felix pie than joey gathright. except jim hendry.

 

Even as a Cubs fan, I wish that were true, because it would mean the rest of the league had wised up. But I doubt it.

[BigbadB]

I'm holding on to the Peavy theory for dear life.

 

1) The Cubs need another starter

2) The Padres still need to clear payroll

3) The Cubs have made all the same moves that were rumored to happen to make a Peavy deal happen (minus a Pie deal)

4) The Padres are completely sitting on their hands right now, with monster holes on the field and in the rotation.

5) Peavy's contract extension was under the premise that the Pads would remain competitive. Not only are they no longer competitive, but the Padres seem to have backed out of their end of the deal, burning bridges with Peavy along the way

6) The Cubs need to do something with Pie, Hill and Cedeno

7) Gathright's signing spells the end for Pie, and the rumors of signing Rich Aurilia spells the end for Cedeno. I find it extremely hard to believe that Hendry would just let Pie, Hill and Cedeno walk via the waiver wire.

8) Not that the talent from the Cubs side of a Peavy deal would make the Padres all that much better, but the talent pool via free agency is dwindling.

 

John Moores made it pretty clear that he wanted payroll reduced to 40m during this offseason. By trading Khalil Greene and letting Trevor Hoffman walk, they've managed to reduce payroll by a lot, but it's still over 40m. By moving Peavy, they can get well under the magic number and have some money to spend to improve the team. By trading Peavy, they might be able to sign Orlando Cabrera to play SS and Orlando Hudson to play 2b. By keeping Peavy, they are looking at playing Luis Rodriguez at SS and Matt Antonelli or Craig Stansbury at 2b. Before people start wondering if Luis Rodriguez is some hot prospect, let me make it clear that Rodriguez has been in AAA since 2003. Antonelli was one of their top prospects, but he had a disastrous year between AAA and the bigs last year.

 

Here is what the Padres look like right now:

 

LF- Chase Headley

CF- Scott Hairston, Jody Gerut, Will Venable

RF- Brian Giles

3b- Kevin Kouzmanoff

SS- Luis Rodriguez

2b- Matt Antonelli, Edgar Gonzalez

1b- Adrian Gonzalez

C- Nick Hundley, Brad Ausmus

 

SP- Jake Peavy

SP- Chris Young

SP- Cha Baek

SP- Josh Banks

SP- Wade LeBlanc

 

Yes, it's really THAT bad. Even with Peavy, I think they are a 110 loss team. Padres fans are already making different summer plans this year.

[jersey cubs fan]

Padres fans are already making different summer plans this year.

 

Which would differ from their winter plans, how?

[BigbadB]

Padres fans are already making different summer plans this year.

 

Which would differ from their winter plans, how?

 

They enjoy a good Charger game in the winter.

[cubbinalltheway]

every gm in baseball would rather have felix pie than joey gathright. except jim hendry.

it's not that simple though. it's pie or gathright and whoever pie nets in return.

 

pretty stupid to get upset at the signing of gathright when it remains to be seen what pie will net (not saying you're stupid, just speaking in general)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

every gm in baseball would rather have felix pie than joey gathright. except jim hendry.

it's not that simple though. it's pie or gathright and whoever pie nets in return.

 

pretty stupid to get upset at the signing of gathright when it remains to be seen what pie will net (not saying you're stupid, just speaking in general)

 

What could Pie possibly net at this point? He's out of options, so the Cubs lose a lot of their leverage in dealing him.

 

He can *only* be dealt to a team that has a spot for him this year, which significantly narrows the field and lowers the return.

[cubbinalltheway]

every gm in baseball would rather have felix pie than joey gathright. except jim hendry.

it's not that simple though. it's pie or gathright and whoever pie nets in return.

 

pretty stupid to get upset at the signing of gathright when it remains to be seen what pie will net (not saying you're stupid, just speaking in general)

 

What could Pie possibly net at this point? He's out of options, so the Cubs lose a lot of their leverage in dealing him.

 

He can *only* be dealt to a team that has a spot for him this year, which significantly narrows the field and lowers the return.

oh they surely lost a lot of leverage. the guy still has some value (a small amount, admittedly) to other organizations, though. unfortunately the gm's job isn't always easy though, and clearly the cubs think gathright will be a better asset than pie. whether you agree or disagree really doesn't mean anything. hopefully pie's trade return is something that will benefit the cubs in 2009 and beyond.

[UK1679666180]

This has probably been covered in existing threads already, but I don't understand the Gathright signing at all. Why spend the extra money (800 grand is still 800 grand) when dollars are obviously tight? They already have Pie who can provide the speed that Gathright has and most likely much better defense. Pie showed improvement last year, slight though it was, over the previous season, and finished last season on a high note. What he needs is time in the bigs. I understand that he can't be given a starting job, but what would be so wrong with having him on the bench? He turns 24 in a couple of weeks. There are quite a few examples of players that realize their potential at the plate after that age.

 

Can anyone explain to me what Gathright provides that is worth giving up on Pie? Does Hendry still believe the Peavy trade can happen before the season starts? Does he have a deal in place for Pie that he likes in case the Peavy thing doesn't happen? From where I sit, he better...

 

They probably feel that Gathright can hit well enough to maintain that role as the 25th man/pinch-runner/defensive replacement where Pie has not shown that ability to do so. He does have things going against him: Long swing, poor strike zone knowledge, inability to work the count, unable to hit the breaking ball, and he finds himself in way too many 2 strike counts to have those things going against him.

[Backtobanks]

every gm in baseball would rather have felix pie than joey gathright. except jim hendry.

 

I think you are absolutely wrong there. Hendry would be keeping Pie and probably would be giving him a better shot at winning a starting job. I am a fan of Hendry, but one of his faults is that he lets the managers dictate to him instead of vice versa. As I posted before, Lou is okay with young players as long as they produce immediately. If they don't, they're banished forever.

[cubbinalltheway]

every gm in baseball would rather have felix pie than joey gathright. except jim hendry.

 

I think you are absolutely wrong there. Hendry would be keeping Pie and probably would be giving him a better shot at winning a starting job. I am a fan of Hendry, but one of his faults is that he lets the managers dictate to him instead of vice versa. As I posted before, Lou is okay with young players as long as they produce immediately. If they don't, they're banished forever.

that's a really good point.

[Backtobanks]

I'm holding on to the Peavy theory for dear life.

 

1) The Cubs need another starter

2) The Padres still need to clear payroll

3) The Cubs have made all the same moves that were rumored to happen to make a Peavy deal happen (minus a Pie deal)

4) The Padres are completely sitting on their hands right now, with monster holes on the field and in the rotation.

5) Peavy's contract extension was under the premise that the Pads would remain competitive. Not only are they no longer competitive, but the Padres seem to have backed out of their end of the deal, burning bridges with Peavy along the way

6) The Cubs need to do something with Pie, Hill and Cedeno

7) Gathright's signing spells the end for Pie, and the rumors of signing Rich Aurilia spells the end for Cedeno. I find it extremely hard to believe that Hendry would just let Pie, Hill and Cedeno walk via the waiver wire.

8) Not that the talent from the Cubs side of a Peavy deal would make the Padres all that much better, but the talent pool via free agency is dwindling.

 

John Moores made it pretty clear that he wanted payroll reduced to 40m during this offseason. By trading Khalil Greene and letting Trevor Hoffman walk, they've managed to reduce payroll by a lot, but it's still over 40m. By moving Peavy, they can get well under the magic number and have some money to spend to improve the team. By trading Peavy, they might be able to sign Orlando Cabrera to play SS and Orlando Hudson to play 2b. By keeping Peavy, they are looking at playing Luis Rodriguez at SS and Matt Antonelli or Craig Stansbury at 2b. Before people start wondering if Luis Rodriguez is some hot prospect, let me make it clear that Rodriguez has been in AAA since 2003. Antonelli was one of their top prospects, but he had a disastrous year between AAA and the bigs last year.

 

Here is what the Padres look like right now:

 

LF- Chase Headley

CF- Scott Hairston, Jody Gerut, Will Venable

RF- Brian Giles

3b- Kevin Kouzmanoff

SS- Luis Rodriguez

2b- Matt Antonelli, Edgar Gonzalez

1b- Adrian Gonzalez

C- Nick Hundley, Brad Ausmus

 

SP- Jake Peavy

SP- Chris Young

SP- Cha Baek

SP- Josh Banks

SP- Wade LeBlanc

 

Yes, it's really THAT bad. Even with Peavy, I think they are a 110 loss team. Padres fans are already making different summer plans this year.

 

I agree about the Peavy deal and have been posting that opinion everywhere. If you follow the steps below, a trade seems likely.

1. The Padres can't afford him.

2. Peavy wants out and will only waive his NTC to one team (Cubs).

3. The Cubs have roster problems with Pie, Hill, Cedeno.

4. The DeRosa trade got more quantity than quality to add prospect pitching depth.

5. The rumors have the Padres wanting more young pitching.

[soapy]

This has probably been covered in existing threads already, but I don't understand the Gathright signing at all. Why spend the extra money (800 grand is still 800 grand) when dollars are obviously tight? They already have Pie who can provide the speed that Gathright has and most likely much better defense. Pie showed improvement last year, slight though it was, over the previous season, and finished last season on a high note. What he needs is time in the bigs. I understand that he can't be given a starting job, but what would be so wrong with having him on the bench? He turns 24 in a couple of weeks. There are quite a few examples of players that realize their potential at the plate after that age.

 

Can anyone explain to me what Gathright provides that is worth giving up on Pie? Does Hendry still believe the Peavy trade can happen before the season starts? Does he have a deal in place for Pie that he likes in case the Peavy thing doesn't happen? From where I sit, he better...

 

They probably feel that Gathright can hit well enough to maintain that role as the 25th man/pinch-runner/defensive replacement where Pie has not shown that ability to do so. He does have things going against him: Long swing, poor strike zone knowledge, inability to work the count, unable to hit the breaking ball, and he finds himself in way too many 2 strike counts to have those things going against him.

 

What you say is true, but do you really think Gathright offers much (or any) more than Pie as a 25th man? They seem to be almost the same player, no? I guess I really don't see what Gathright can do that Pie can't, besides make a little more contact. 2007 was the only time he did anything. Once you consider age, I really have a hard time considering Gathright a better option.

[badnews]

The sooner we wake up from this daydream that Pie is ever going to be a useful player, better. I can't figure out what his appeal is supposed to be. I mean, I know the worse he is offensively the better he gets defensively supposedly, but, what's his offensive value? He's not going to hit for a high average. He's not going to walk a lot. He's not going to hit for a lot of power. His minor league career makes him look like a baserunning incompetent. Does he just stand around being toolsy? I don't get it. He sure as hell isn't Carl Crawford, at Pie's age Carl Crawford already had some real muscle. Pie's minor league numbers always seemed to project Jacque Jones with less power to me.

[soapy]

The sooner we wake up from this daydream that Pie is ever going to be a useful player, better. I can't figure out what his appeal is supposed to be. I mean, I know the worse he is offensively the better he gets defensively supposedly, but, what's his offensive value? He's not going to hit for a high average. He's not going to walk a lot. He's not going to hit for a lot of power. His minor league career makes him look like a baserunning incompetent. Does he just stand around being toolsy? I don't get it. He sure as hell isn't Carl Crawford, at Pie's age Carl Crawford already had some real muscle. Pie's minor league numbers always seemed to project Jacque Jones with less power to me.

 

erroneous

 

the question at this point is simply one of Pie v. Gathright. that's it. nobody is arguing Pie is or ever will be a Carl Crawford. nobody.

[UK1679666180]

 

What you say is true, but do you really think Gathright offers much (or any) more than Pie as a 25th man? They seem to be almost the same player, no? I guess I really don't see what Gathright can do that Pie can't, besides make a little more contact. 2007 was the only time he did anything. Once you consider age, I really have a hard time considering Gathright a better option.

 

He probably does, Gathright will hit for a better avg., Pie would hit for more power, Gathright is a much better baserunner, Pie is better defensively while both are above avg. defensively.

 

Pie didn't do enough last year to merit being on the 25 man roster and with those flaws I mentioned, I don't see him ever becoming an everyday CF'er. The Cubs aren't in a position to try and develop an inferior player on the 25 man roster (even a 25th man) when they are trying to win it all and potential upgrades are avail. at minimal cost.

Edited January 15, 2009 by UK

[jersey cubs fan]

The sooner we wake up from this daydream that Pie is ever going to be a useful player, better. I can't figure out what his appeal is supposed to be. I mean, I know the worse he is offensively the better he gets defensively supposedly, but, what's his offensive value? He's not going to hit for a high average. He's not going to walk a lot. He's not going to hit for a lot of power. His minor league career makes him look like a baserunning incompetent. Does he just stand around being toolsy? I don't get it. He sure as hell isn't Carl Crawford, at Pie's age Carl Crawford already had some real muscle. Pie's minor league numbers always seemed to project Jacque Jones with less power to me.

 

erroneous

 

the question at this point is simply one of Pie v. Gathright. that's it. nobody is arguing Pie is or ever will be a Carl Crawford. nobody.

 

Yeah, not likely ever becoming a solid everyday CF does not make him useless. If you have to go on the free agent market and spend double for essentially the same player, then the guy you have has value. Jacque Jones with a little less power wouldn't have been useless in his 20's. He'd be the quintessential 4th OFer.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

What you say is true, but do you really think Gathright offers much (or any) more than Pie as a 25th man? They seem to be almost the same player, no? I guess I really don't see what Gathright can do that Pie can't, besides make a little more contact. 2007 was the only time he did anything. Once you consider age, I really have a hard time considering Gathright a better option.

 

He probably does, Gathright will hit for a better avg., Pie would hit for more power, Gathright is a much better baserunner, Pie is better defensively while both are above avg. defensively.

 

Pie didn't do enough last year to merit being on the 25 man roster and with those flaws I mentioned, I don't see him ever becoming an everyday CF'er. The Cubs aren't in a position to try and develop an inferior player on the 25 man roster (even a 25th man) when they are trying it all and potential upgrades are avail. at minimal cost.

 

I don't get this line of thinking. If anybody can afford to develop guys at the back end of a roster it's a team that should be able to coast to a division title. Almost every single player essentially has to develop in the majors. A team like the Cubs, with very little quality in the minor leagues, is going to depend heavily on whatever they can get from the minors. Every year they are in a position to withstand established veterans having crappy years on the 25-man roster, why can't they deal with a kid who has some upside?