Re: Time to give Theriot less playing time?

[David]

 

I think it depends. With a player like Ronnie, the limited at-bats aren't taking advantage of a massive platoon split, so I think it's reasonable to think he'd be better with full-time play.

 

In other circumstances -- Reed Johnson, Matt Murton -- the overall numbers look better in part time play because a disproportionate number of at bats come with a huge platoon advantage. Neither Murton nor Johnson has looked as good in full time play when they are required to face RHP 70% of the time.

 

 

If anything, you could say that Cedeno is being (inadvertently) sent up for failure by getting a disproportionate amount of his PAs against lefties when he has (at least in the majors) tended to hit righties better.

[SouthSideRyan]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

30 points of OPS is hardly "quite minimal." And, of course, what better time than now to try and favorably compare Cedeno to Theriot? Up until recently, Theriot has been a 760 OPS player all year and Ronny has been around a 690-700 OPS player. Certainly makes them look more comparable right after Theriot busted out of a 1-24 slump.

 

I'm glad you refrained from comparing Theriot favorably to Cedeno when Cedeno was struggling. I'm certainly glad that people didn't go around calling Cedeno useless and question why he was in the majors while he was struggling.

 

The entire season matters, and the fact that Theriot struggled recently means it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno?

Did I say that it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno? No. I simply said (in a pretty straight-forward way) that it sure is convenient that all the Cedeno guys are coming out again now that Theriot is slumping. No one was calling for Theriot to get less playing time earlier in the year; the guy finally goes through a rough patch and everyone calls for his head again so that the great Ronny Cedeno can get more time!

 

Why in the hell would people call for Cedeno to play while Theriot was playing well and Cedeno wasn't?

[Warren Brusstar]

 

I think it depends. With a player like Ronnie, the limited at-bats aren't taking advantage of a massive platoon split, so I think it's reasonable to think he'd be better with full-time play.

 

In other circumstances -- Reed Johnson, Matt Murton -- the overall numbers look better in part time play because a disproportionate number of at bats come with a huge platoon advantage. Neither Murton nor Johnson has looked as good in full time play when they are required to face RHP 70% of the time.

 

 

If anything, you could say that Cedeno is being (inadvertently) sent up for failure by getting a disproportionate amount of his PAs against lefties when he has (at least in the majors) tended to hit righties better.

 

Agreed. Lou has never seemed to get that Cedeno can't hit LHP.

[Tracer Bullet]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

 

I would almost always give a statistical advantage to the guy playing everyday over someone spot starting/pinch hitting on very rare occasions. Thus, I don't think it's all that fair to compare the two statistically.

 

Looking closely at Cedeno's splits, his best month was directly following Spring Training, where he more than likely saw more regular at bats. As the season progressed, his stats trended downward as he saw less and less at bats. Granted, he most certainly wouldn't have been able to match what he did in March/April all season long, but it makes perfect sense that someone's timing starts deteriorating when they receive limited plate appearances over the course of a long season.

 

With that said, there aren't many good utility infielders floating around and I don't know how much more anyone could expect from any replacement for Cedeno. I don't think anyone could have predicted what Fontenot has done this season, and I don't think you can predict that same production next year.

 

I think it depends. With a player like Ronnie, the limited at-bats aren't taking advantage of a massive platoon split, so I think it's reasonable to think he'd be better with full-time play.

 

In other circumstances -- Reed Johnson, Matt Murton -- the overall numbers look better in part time play because a disproportionate number of at bats come with a huge platoon advantage. Neither Murton nor Johnson has looked as good in full time play when they are required to face RHP 70% of the time.

 

Is there some place that breaks down RHP/LHP by 1st half/2nd half? I ask b/c Murton was great in the 2nd half of both '06 and '07. In '06, he started 52 games in the second half, which is pretty regular ABs and I doubt we faced 52 starting LHPs from mid-July to October 1 of that year. I don't think it's so easy to say that Murton's limited playing time helped him as his overall numbers were weighed down greatly by PH ABs, especially in '07.

[Tracer Bullet]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

30 points of OPS is hardly "quite minimal." And, of course, what better time than now to try and favorably compare Cedeno to Theriot? Up until recently, Theriot has been a 760 OPS player all year and Ronny has been around a 690-700 OPS player. Certainly makes them look more comparable right after Theriot busted out of a 1-24 slump.

 

I'm glad you refrained from comparing Theriot favorably to Cedeno when Cedeno was struggling. I'm certainly glad that people didn't go around calling Cedeno useless and question why he was in the majors while he was struggling.

 

The entire season matters, and the fact that Theriot struggled recently means it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno?

Did I say that it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno? No. I simply said (in a pretty straight-forward way) that it sure is convenient that all the Cedeno guys are coming out again now that Theriot is slumping. No one was calling for Theriot to get less playing time earlier in the year; the guy finally goes through a rough patch and everyone calls for his head again so that the great Ronny Cedeno can get more time!

 

Why in the hell would people call for Cedeno to play while Theriot was playing well and Cedeno wasn't?

 

Also, this argument was beaten to death in many threads in the off-season. But if you look back at some of those threads, you'll see some posts looking for more ABs for Cedeno when he started the year on an absolute tear (even though Theriot was playing well too).

[Mizzou]

Remember how the big knock on Theriot is he doesn't hit for power? Ronny's SLG is .01 better than Theriot's. And his (Ronny's) OBP is 40 points lower. They both make stupid plays on the basepaths and in the field. That's moot. Ronny certainly fields his position better, but not better enough (IMO) to even consider giving him significant playing time in October.

 

Ronny's IsoP (Isolated Power, SLG-BA) is .03 higher, and his IsoD (Isolated Discipline, OBP-BA) is .017. The power difference is basically the difference between Soto and Lee this year. The major difference right now between the two is that Theriot gets quite a few more singles, basically, to prop up the OBP and SLG with batting average. The OPS difference overall is quite minimal.

30 points of OPS is hardly "quite minimal." And, of course, what better time than now to try and favorably compare Cedeno to Theriot? Up until recently, Theriot has been a 760 OPS player all year and Ronny has been around a 690-700 OPS player. Certainly makes them look more comparable right after Theriot busted out of a 1-24 slump.

 

I'm glad you refrained from comparing Theriot favorably to Cedeno when Cedeno was struggling. I'm certainly glad that people didn't go around calling Cedeno useless and question why he was in the majors while he was struggling.

 

The entire season matters, and the fact that Theriot struggled recently means it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno?

Did I say that it's unfair to compare him to Cedeno? No. I simply said (in a pretty straight-forward way) that it sure is convenient that all the Cedeno guys are coming out again now that Theriot is slumping. No one was calling for Theriot to get less playing time earlier in the year; the guy finally goes through a rough patch and everyone calls for his head again so that the great Ronny Cedeno can get more time!

 

Why in the hell would people call for Cedeno to play while Theriot was playing well and Cedeno wasn't?

Because his floor is apparently higher than Theriot's ceiling.

[bukie]

Because his floor is apparently higher than Theriot's ceiling.

 

The best part of this "quote" is that nobody ever said it other than you and Garage Party! in an effort to mock Cedeno supporters with a straw man.

[Mizzou]

Because his floor is apparently higher than Theriot's ceiling.

 

The best part of this "quote" is that nobody ever said it other than you and Garage Party! in an effort to mock Cedeno supporters with a straw man.

I don't know if that actual quote was ever said or not, and truthfully I don't care, but similar stuff has certainly been said in the Theriot vs. Cedeno debates before the season started.

[bukie]

Because his floor is apparently higher than Theriot's ceiling.

 

The best part of this "quote" is that nobody ever said it other than you and Garage Party! in an effort to mock Cedeno supporters with a straw man.

I don't know if that actual quote was ever said or not, and truthfully I don't care, but similar stuff has certainly been said in the Theriot vs. Cedeno debates before the season started.

 

No, actually, nothing even close to that. Here's the thread you probably thought you remembered, where the argument actually consisted mostly of risk vs. mediocrity.

[jersey cubs fan]

Because his floor is apparently higher than Theriot's ceiling.

 

The best part of this "quote" is that nobody ever said it other than you and Garage Party! in an effort to mock Cedeno supporters with a straw man.

I don't know if that actual quote was ever said or not, and truthfully I don't care, but similar stuff has certainly been said in the Theriot vs. Cedeno debates before the season started.

 

The talk was about Theriot pretty much locking in mediocrity, whereas Cedeno gave you a chance for much greater upside. It was acknowledged by pretty much everybody that Cedeno had a very low floor.

[Guest]

Because his floor is apparently higher than Theriot's ceiling.

 

The best part of this "quote" is that nobody ever said it other than you and Garage Party! in an effort to mock Cedeno supporters with a straw man.

I don't know if that actual quote was ever said or not, and truthfully I don't care, but similar stuff has certainly been said in the Theriot vs. Cedeno debates before the season started.

 

So you'll quote something you think the other side of the argument said because it makes them look like idiots but you don't care if it was really said or not?

[Mizzou]

Because his floor is apparently higher than Theriot's ceiling.

 

The best part of this "quote" is that nobody ever said it other than you and Garage Party! in an effort to mock Cedeno supporters with a straw man.

I don't know if that actual quote was ever said or not, and truthfully I don't care, but similar stuff has certainly been said in the Theriot vs. Cedeno debates before the season started.

 

So you'll quote something you think the other side of the argument said because it makes them look like idiots but you don't care if it was really said or not?

Either I'm typing in a foreign language in this thread or there are some serious reading problems going on.

 

I definitely didn't quote anyone. It was a smart assed reply to a stupid question.

[David]

The "apparently" would definitely seem to imply that you're attributing it to the "pro-Cedeno" crowd.

[Peoriaman]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, his fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Peoriaman

[Warren Brusstar]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

[David]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

[Warren Brusstar]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

 

Pman has his nose so far up Bruce Weber's behind that I have no idea how he can even watch the games.

[TruffleShuffle]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

 

Pman has his nose so far up Bruce Weber's behind that I have no idea how he can even watch the games.

 

i thought maybe it was about mike davis or something, and if so, nice burn... but bruce weber flushing illinois down the toilet? no.

[Peoriaman]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

 

Pman has his nose so far up Bruce Weber's behind that I have no idea how he can even watch the games.

 

 

Nice. The fact you were dead wrong on Choi really still bothers you, doesn't it? I don't blame you for being bitter, you looked like a fool.

 

 

Go ahead, attack the poster if you really don't have any defense to your position.

 

Edited by a mod to remove the improper language that this poster knows he is not supposed to use on this site.

 

Please reread the NSBB member guidelines.

[Warren Brusstar]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

 

Pman has his nose so far up Bruce Weber's behind that I have no idea how he can even watch the games.

 

 

Nice. The fact you were dead wrong on Choi really still bothers you, doesn't it? I don't blame you for being bitter, you looked like a fool.

 

Of course not. I've certainly been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

 

I just think its funny listening to the president of the Bruce Weber Apologists lecturing others about stubborness.

[Peoriaman]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

 

Pman has his nose so far up Bruce Weber's behind that I have no idea how he can even watch the games.

 

 

Nice, [expletive]. The fact you were dead wrong on Choi really still bothers you, doesn't it? I don't blame you for being bitter, you looked like a fool.

 

Of course not. I've certainly been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

 

I just think its funny listening to the president of the Bruce Weber Apologists lecturing others about stubborness.

 

You need to get over your past failings and talk baseball. You are obsessed and it isn't becoming. I doubt the posters here want to hear your personal rants about other posters.

[BigbadB]

You both need to take a pill.

 

Do you really want to suffer a heart attack arguing about Theriot and Cedeno and then miss the entire 2008 postseason?

[Peoriaman]

You both need to take a pill.

 

Do you really want to suffer a heart attack arguing about Theriot and Cedeno and then miss the entire 2008 postseason?

 

 

I am fine. I like Cedeno as a back-up. There is nothing I wouldn't like better than seeing Cedeno blossom.

 

I like Theriot and the year he has had.

 

I don't name call, I only defend myself.

[Warren Brusstar]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

 

Pman has his nose so far up Bruce Weber's behind that I have no idea how he can even watch the games.

 

 

Nice, [expletive]. The fact you were dead wrong on Choi really still bothers you, doesn't it? I don't blame you for being bitter, you looked like a fool.

 

Of course not. I've certainly been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

 

I just think its funny listening to the president of the Bruce Weber Apologists lecturing others about stubborness.

 

You need to get over your past failings

 

And you need to actually acknowledge your own.

[Peoriaman]

The problem is that posters get in player 'camps" and refuse to get out off them. Years ago it was Choi, it matter not a bit how badly he did, hsi fans refused to believe he wasn't a major league player. Next, Murton became a favorite. He was bad with us and horrible with the A's. Some still think he was screwed here.

 

Now it is happening with Cedeno. Hey, I have no problem with him as a utility guy, but no matter how well Theriot does, some just won't admit he is a better player than Cedeno.

 

Stubborness prevails.

 

And some people -- no matter how bad the head coach is flushing their alma mater's/favorite university's basketball program down the toilet -- refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the head basketball coach is an abject failure.

 

Stubborness prevails indeed.

 

I have no idea what this reference is to but it seems like a sick burn. ohhhhh

 

Pman has his nose so far up Bruce Weber's behind that I have no idea how he can even watch the games.

 

 

Nice, [expletive]. The fact you were dead wrong on Choi really still bothers you, doesn't it? I don't blame you for being bitter, you looked like a fool.

 

Of course not. I've certainly been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

 

I just think its funny listening to the president of the Bruce Weber Apologists lecturing others about stubborness.

 

You need to get over your past failings

 

And you need to actually acknowledge your own.

 

Sorry, this is a baseball board, not an Illinois basketball board. I can separate those things.

 

I talk all the time about IL basketball on the IL basketball boards.