Re: Time to give Theriot less playing time?

[Sammy Sofa]

yup, Theriot double clutched, but also had 3 hits and a stolen base.

 

Cedeno failed to cover 1st on an obvious bunt (got there late and dropped the throw), made ANOTHER miserable sac bunt and continued to do that goofy slide into first base where he is called out every time. Oh, he was also 0-5 with 3 K's.

 

Neither guy is perfect, and he sure isn't an all-star, but I will take Theriot every day of the week over Cedeno.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence above. I'll never get the desire for people, Cubs fans no less, not to get behind him 100 percent. He doesn't get on in the 10th, we don't win. Period. Sure, obsess over his imperfections, but he's had a great season, and any notion to "bench" Theriot is absurd.

 

I can take or leave Cedeno, but he sure strikes me as a dumb player most of the time.

 

Theriot has worked his butt off to maximize his talent and had a fine year. I, too, don't understand why so many posters are against him.

 

I'm not "aganst" him, but I want the Cubs to upgrade SS if possible. Cedeno isn't that upgrade, but Theriot's age, sub-Neifi/Pierre levels of power, terrible defense and horrible baserunning meas he should be the backup in 2009 for, ideally, whoever the Cubs find as their new starting SS.

 

depending on the new ownership, SS is likely a position the Cubs will be happy to have filled on the cheap next year

 

Unfortunately.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

any official explanation as to why theriot cradled that ball like a mother bird protecting its young?

someone should figure out who his superior is and demand his termination posthaste

[Peoriaman]

yup, Theriot double clutched, but also had 3 hits and a stolen base.

 

Cedeno failed to cover 1st on an obvious bunt (got there late and dropped the throw), made ANOTHER miserable sac bunt and continued to do that goofy slide into first base where he is called out every time. Oh, he was also 0-5 with 3 K's.

 

Neither guy is perfect, and he sure isn't an all-star, but I will take Theriot every day of the week over Cedeno.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence above. I'll never get the desire for people, Cubs fans no less, not to get behind him 100 percent. He doesn't get on in the 10th, we don't win. Period. Sure, obsess over his imperfections, but he's had a great season, and any notion to "bench" Theriot is absurd.

 

I can take or leave Cedeno, but he sure strikes me as a dumb player most of the time.

 

Theriot has worked his butt off to maximize his talent and had a fine year. I, too, don't understand why so many posters are against him.

 

I'm not "aganst" him, but I want the Cubs to upgrade SS if possible. Cedeno isn't that upgrade, but Theriot's age, sub-Neifi/Pierre levels of power, terrible defense and horrible baserunning meas he should be the backup in 2009 for, ideally, whoever the Cubs find as their new starting SS.

 

It is hyperbole like this that leads to these long argumentative threads.

[Mizzou]

any official explanation as to why theriot cradled that ball like a mother bird protecting its young?

someone should figure out who his superior is and demand his termination posthaste

Shouldn't you be busy starting threads crying about how your wife left you and telling everyone how you can't ever get laid?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

any official explanation as to why theriot cradled that ball like a mother bird protecting its young?

someone should figure out who his superior is and demand his termination posthaste

Shouldn't you be busy starting threads crying about how your wife left you and telling everyone how you can't ever get laid?

there's no need to make stuff up

[CubinNY]

yup, Theriot double clutched, but also had 3 hits and a stolen base.

 

Cedeno failed to cover 1st on an obvious bunt (got there late and dropped the throw), made ANOTHER miserable sac bunt and continued to do that goofy slide into first base where he is called out every time. Oh, he was also 0-5 with 3 K's.

 

Neither guy is perfect, and he sure isn't an all-star, but I will take Theriot every day of the week over Cedeno.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence above. I'll never get the desire for people, Cubs fans no less, not to get behind him 100 percent. He doesn't get on in the 10th, we don't win. Period. Sure, obsess over his imperfections, but he's had a great season, and any notion to "bench" Theriot is absurd.

 

I can take or leave Cedeno, but he sure strikes me as a dumb player most of the time.

 

Theriot has worked his butt off to maximize his talent and had a fine year. I, too, don't understand why so many posters are against him.

 

I'm not "aganst" him, but I want the Cubs to upgrade SS if possible. Cedeno isn't that upgrade, but Theriot's age, sub-Neifi/Pierre levels of power, terrible defense and horrible baserunning meas he should be the backup in 2009 for, ideally, whoever the Cubs find as their new starting SS.

 

It is hyperbole like this that leads to these long argumentative threads.

That's one the least hyperbolic things written in this thread in the last few pages.

[abuck1220]

any official explanation as to why theriot cradled that ball like a mother bird protecting its young?

someone should figure out who his superior is and demand his termination posthaste

Shouldn't you be busy starting threads crying about how your wife left you and telling everyone how you can't ever get laid?

 

my goodness, dude, go headbutt your frat bros to release some of that tension.

[Peoriaman]

yup, Theriot double clutched, but also had 3 hits and a stolen base.

 

Cedeno failed to cover 1st on an obvious bunt (got there late and dropped the throw), made ANOTHER miserable sac bunt and continued to do that goofy slide into first base where he is called out every time. Oh, he was also 0-5 with 3 K's.

 

Neither guy is perfect, and he sure isn't an all-star, but I will take Theriot every day of the week over Cedeno.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence above. I'll never get the desire for people, Cubs fans no less, not to get behind him 100 percent. He doesn't get on in the 10th, we don't win. Period. Sure, obsess over his imperfections, but he's had a great season, and any notion to "bench" Theriot is absurd.

 

I can take or leave Cedeno, but he sure strikes me as a dumb player most of the time.

 

Theriot has worked his butt off to maximize his talent and had a fine year. I, too, don't understand why so many posters are against him.

 

I'm not "aganst" him, but I want the Cubs to upgrade SS if possible. Cedeno isn't that upgrade, but Theriot's age, sub-Neifi/Pierre levels of power, terrible defense and horrible baserunning meas he should be the backup in 2009 for, ideally, whoever the Cubs find as their new starting SS.

 

It is hyperbole like this that leads to these long argumentative threads.

That's one the least hyperbolic things written in this thread in the last few pages.

 

"terrible" and "horrible" and Neifi are all gross hyperbole. You can criticize his defense or baserunning or power, but, believe me, if he was "terrible" and "horrible" and Neifi-like, he would not be playing. My God, what would that make Cedeno?

 

It is over the top stuff like this that makes what it is said not very credible.

[Mizzou]

any official explanation as to why theriot cradled that ball like a mother bird protecting its young?

someone should figure out who his superior is and demand his termination posthaste

Shouldn't you be busy starting threads crying about how your wife left you and telling everyone how you can't ever get laid?

 

my goodness, dude, go headbutt your frat bros to release some of that tension.

I wasn't in a frat. Looks like there's an error on your 8 page file dedicated to me on your PC. Whoops!

[CubinNY]

yup, Theriot double clutched, but also had 3 hits and a stolen base.

 

Cedeno failed to cover 1st on an obvious bunt (got there late and dropped the throw), made ANOTHER miserable sac bunt and continued to do that goofy slide into first base where he is called out every time. Oh, he was also 0-5 with 3 K's.

 

Neither guy is perfect, and he sure isn't an all-star, but I will take Theriot every day of the week over Cedeno.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence above. I'll never get the desire for people, Cubs fans no less, not to get behind him 100 percent. He doesn't get on in the 10th, we don't win. Period. Sure, obsess over his imperfections, but he's had a great season, and any notion to "bench" Theriot is absurd.

 

I can take or leave Cedeno, but he sure strikes me as a dumb player most of the time.

 

Theriot has worked his butt off to maximize his talent and had a fine year. I, too, don't understand why so many posters are against him.

 

 

 

I'm not "aganst" him, but I want the Cubs to upgrade SS if possible. Cedeno isn't that upgrade, but Theriot's age, sub-Neifi/Pierre levels of power, terrible defense and horrible baserunning meas he should be the backup in 2009 for, ideally, whoever the Cubs find as their new starting SS.

 

It is hyperbole like this that leads to these long argumentative threads.

That's one the least hyperbolic things written in this thread in the last few pages.

 

"terrible" and "horrible" and Neifi are all gross hyperbole. You can criticize his defense or baserunning or power, but, believe me, if he was "terrible" and "horrible" and Neifi-like, he would not be playing. My God, what would that make Cedeno?

 

It is over the top stuff like this that makes what it is said not very credible.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=620&playerid2=3811&playerid3=&position=SS&page=6&type=full

 

Neili-like power

 

His defense is probably not terrible but it's not good either.

And his base running is terrible. His CS rate is right around 50% not to mention the base running boners.

 

On a hyperbole scale of 0-10 I'd rate it a 1.5.

 

Here is a little Ronny Cedeno thrown in the mix

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=620&playerid2=3811&playerid3=2179&position=SS&page=6&type=full

[Magnetic Curses]

yup, Theriot double clutched, but also had 3 hits and a stolen base.

 

Cedeno failed to cover 1st on an obvious bunt (got there late and dropped the throw), made ANOTHER miserable sac bunt and continued to do that goofy slide into first base where he is called out every time. Oh, he was also 0-5 with 3 K's.

 

Neither guy is perfect, and he sure isn't an all-star, but I will take Theriot every day of the week over Cedeno.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence above. I'll never get the desire for people, Cubs fans no less, not to get behind him 100 percent. He doesn't get on in the 10th, we don't win. Period. Sure, obsess over his imperfections, but he's had a great season, and any notion to "bench" Theriot is absurd.

 

I can take or leave Cedeno, but he sure strikes me as a dumb player most of the time.

 

Theriot has worked his butt off to maximize his talent and had a fine year. I, too, don't understand why so many posters are against him.

 

I'm not "aganst" him, but I want the Cubs to upgrade SS if possible. Cedeno isn't that upgrade, but Theriot's age, sub-Neifi/Pierre levels of power, terrible defense and horrible baserunning meas he should be the backup in 2009 for, ideally, whoever the Cubs find as their new starting SS.

 

It is hyperbole like this that leads to these long argumentative threads.

That's one the least hyperbolic things written in this thread in the last few pages.

 

"terrible" and "horrible" and Neifi are all gross hyperbole. You can criticize his defense or baserunning or power, but, believe me, if he was "terrible" and "horrible" and Neifi-like, he would not be playing. My God, what would that make Cedeno?

 

It is over the top stuff like this that makes what it is said not very credible.

 

he compared his power to neifi's, which is probably an overestimation.

[Peoriaman]

I am done with this. It has gotten silly with posters trying to justify their positions with hyperbole, over the top arguments and obscure stats. I will go with Lou and the rest of the baseball people on this one--Theriot is our shortstop and has had a fine year. I hope he and Cedeno play well and we win ourselves a World Series. The rest is just noise.

[CubinNY]

I am done with this. It has gotten silly with posters trying to justify their positions with hyperbole, over the top arguments and obscure stats. I will go with Lou and the rest of the baseball people on this one--Theriot is our shortstop and has had a fine year. I hope he and Cedeno play well and we win ourselves a World Series.

Obscure stats? :D) ](*,) :D)

[Magnetic Curses]

I am done with this. It has gotten silly with posters trying to justify their positions with hyperbole, over the top arguments and obscure stats.

 

i think this itself is a bit of hyperbole, if i have my definition straight.

 

I will go with Lou and the rest of the baseball people on this one--Theriot is our shortstop and has had a fine year. I hope he and Cedeno play well and we win ourselves a World Series. The rest is just noise.

 

never ever go with baseball people, baseball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

i won't complain about theriot's season because he's been adequate at the position, for the most part.

[Peoriaman]

I am done with this. It has gotten silly with posters trying to justify their positions with hyperbole, over the top arguments and obscure stats.

 

i think this itself is a bit of hyperbole, if i have my definition straight.

 

I will go with Lou and the rest of the baseball people on this one--Theriot is our shortstop and has had a fine year. I hope he and Cedeno play well and we win ourselves a World Series. The rest is just noise.

 

never ever go with baseball people, baseball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

i won't complain about theriot's season because he's been adequate at the position, for the most part.

 

 

Yeah, sure, I won't go with the baseball people because they think they know baseball. I will go with the moneyball people because they show such great humility when discussing their baseball knowledge. Wow.

 

 

Again, when posters get entrenched in their position, they resort to hyperbole and extremes to try and make their case. It actually weakens their case.

 

Substitute a few words here and see how silly this statement can sound:

 

never ever go with moneyball people, moneyball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

[nilodnayr]

I am done with this. It has gotten silly with posters trying to justify their positions with hyperbole, over the top arguments and obscure stats.

 

i think this itself is a bit of hyperbole, if i have my definition straight.

 

I will go with Lou and the rest of the baseball people on this one--Theriot is our shortstop and has had a fine year. I hope he and Cedeno play well and we win ourselves a World Series. The rest is just noise.

 

never ever go with baseball people, baseball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

i won't complain about theriot's season because he's been adequate at the position, for the most part.

 

 

Yeah, sure, I won't go with the baseball people because they think they know baseball. I will go with the moneyball people because they show such great humility when discussing their baseball knowledge. Wow.

 

 

Again, when posters get entrenched in their position, they resort to hyperbole and extremes to try and make their case. It actually weakens their case.

 

Substitute a few words here and see how silly this statement can sound:

 

never ever go with moneyball people, moneyball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

Like that Theriot doesn't have Neifi-esque power, even when proven otherwise?

[Peoriaman]

Have a great day everybody and let's go win a World Series!

[Magnetic Curses]

I am done with this. It has gotten silly with posters trying to justify their positions with hyperbole, over the top arguments and obscure stats.

 

i think this itself is a bit of hyperbole, if i have my definition straight.

 

I will go with Lou and the rest of the baseball people on this one--Theriot is our shortstop and has had a fine year. I hope he and Cedeno play well and we win ourselves a World Series. The rest is just noise.

 

never ever go with baseball people, baseball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

i won't complain about theriot's season because he's been adequate at the position, for the most part.

 

 

Yeah, sure, I won't go with the baseball people because they think they know baseball. I will go with the moneyball people because they show such great humility when discussing their baseball knowledge. Wow.

 

 

Again, when posters get entrenched in their position, they resort to hyperbole and extremes to try and make their case. It actually weakens their case.

 

Substitute a few words here and see how silly this statement can sound:

 

never ever go with moneyball people, moneyball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

since when did humility have anything to do with being right or wrong? and i don't think "moneyball people" is the right term.

 

personally, i think that anyone who professes to be right all the time, especially in a game where so much is up left up to chance, is probably an idiot--no matter who they are.

[Peoriaman]

I am done with this. It has gotten silly with posters trying to justify their positions with hyperbole, over the top arguments and obscure stats.

 

i think this itself is a bit of hyperbole, if i have my definition straight.

 

I will go with Lou and the rest of the baseball people on this one--Theriot is our shortstop and has had a fine year. I hope he and Cedeno play well and we win ourselves a World Series. The rest is just noise.

 

never ever go with baseball people, baseball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

i won't complain about theriot's season because he's been adequate at the position, for the most part.

 

 

Yeah, sure, I won't go with the baseball people because they think they know baseball. I will go with the moneyball people because they show such great humility when discussing their baseball knowledge. Wow.

 

 

Again, when posters get entrenched in their position, they resort to hyperbole and extremes to try and make their case. It actually weakens their case.

 

Substitute a few words here and see how silly this statement can sound:

 

never ever go with moneyball people, moneyball people probably know the least about the game of anyone because they think they know the most.

 

since when did humility have anything to do with being right or wrong? and i don't think "moneyball people" is the right term.

 

personally, i think that anyone who professes to be right all the time, especially in a game where so much is up left up to chance, is probably an idiot--no matter who they are.

 

absolutely!

[Mizzou]

Who cares about his power? He's not a power hitter! You don't need all 8 guys to hit for power to be successful, as we've seen this year. Theriot gets on base more frequently than any other Cubs player. That's what he does -- works the count, sees a lot of pitches, and then gets on base. He's not perfect, no player is.

[treebird]

Who cares about his power? He's not a power hitter! You don't need all 8 guys to hit for power to be successful, as we've seen this year. Theriot gets on base more frequently than any other Cubs player. That's what he does -- works the count, sees a lot of pitches, and then gets on base. He's not perfect, no player is.

 

this is one of the worst arguments you make on a regular basis, and that's really, really saying something.

[Magnetic Curses]

haha.

[Mizzou]

Who cares about his power? He's not a power hitter! You don't need all 8 guys to hit for power to be successful, as we've seen this year. Theriot gets on base more frequently than any other Cubs player. That's what he does -- works the count, sees a lot of pitches, and then gets on base. He's not perfect, no player is.

 

this is one of the worst arguments you make on a regular basis, and that's really, really saying something.

Then counter it. Otherwise, if you don't have anything of value to contribute (like usual), then why even bother?

[CubColtPacer]

Who cares about his power? He's not a power hitter! You don't need all 8 guys to hit for power to be successful, as we've seen this year. Theriot gets on base more frequently than any other Cubs player. That's what he does -- works the count, sees a lot of pitches, and then gets on base. He's not perfect, no player is.

 

Baseball is not a game of specialists. You can't substitute in for offense/defense or when you need a power or an on-base oriented hitter very often. So every player has to be evaluated on at least 4 things: their ability to get on base, their ability to hit for power, their baserunning, and their defense. All of those come together to form the total package of a player. They aren't all weighted the same, but that's another argument entirely. If you have a player that contributes more overall over those 4 categories, then he should be the one starting.

 

That's why looking at one category can cause invalid results. Yes, the Cubs don't need 8 power hitters. But that doesn't mean Theriot's major deficiency in power isn't a big problem that needs to be looked at when comparing him to other shortstops. The Cubs don't need everybody to be perfect on the basepaths. Theriot has had a deficiency on the basepaths this year though, and that shouldn't be ignored. Theriot's mediocre defense should not be ignored either.

 

Now I happen to agree with you that when adding up all 4 categories, Theriot still comes out ahead of Cedeno. But choosing Theriot because of 1 skill is dangerous, because it doesn't help you figure out where you need to upgrade. Wouldn't it be nice if we could find a Theriot with a little more power and better defense? For enough of the first two, I'd sacrifice some of the OBP.

 

So I agree with your conclusion that Theriot should be the starting SS until a better option comes along, and that right now there is no better option. But we should care about his power..because then we know what to look for to find players who are better than Theriot. I happen to think we're going to have a hard time finding one freely available when looking at how bad SS's have been in the majors this year. But only if we're honest about both a player's assets and limitations can we truly evaluate if we can upgrade and continue to make this team better.

[nilodnayr]

Who cares about his power? He's not a power hitter! You don't need all 8 guys to hit for power to be successful, as we've seen this year. Theriot gets on base more frequently than any other Cubs player. That's what he does -- works the count, sees a lot of pitches, and then gets on base. He's not perfect, no player is.

 

Here is a list of Cubs w/ over 100 PAs who have more pitches/pa than Theriot

 

Fukudome

Ward

Edmonds

ARam

Fontenot

Soto

Lee

DeRosa

Cedeno

Johnson

 

Heres a list of Cubs w/ over 100 PAs who have less pitches/pa than Theriot

 

Blanco

Soriano

Edited September 25, 2008 by nilodnayr