Lou Pinella, What the hell are you doing?

[CubinNY]

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

First, let me start out by saying that I agree with you completely. That said, I find it pretty ironic/puzzling that you're taking this stance considering you argued adamantly with me over the offseason that process didn't matter more than outcome (results).

 

I forget what thread it was but there's a pretty decent chance that, given the fact that it was in the offseason, it was in the Roberts thread. :lol:

 

Not to go on a tangent.

 

Process doesn't matter more than outcome and this is a perfect point to illustrate it, Reed got lucky once and then did two stupid things afterwards, IMO, because his "hustle" (i.e., process) was reinforced by stretching a single into a double (outcome) the first time.

 

Outcome always matters, it is what defines good process. With poor "process" one can get away with it every once in a while but more times that not the outcome won't be what is desirable (i.e., getting thrown out at 3rd and attempting to bunt when a) the pitcher has had a hard time finding the plate, and b) the playing surface is fast).

 

IMO, it also hurt when DeRosa didn't back up 1st base.

 

 

Good process = RJ not attempting to take second base... not attempting to drive backwards on the highway

 

Bad process = RJ attempting to take second... you attempting to drive backwards on the highway

 

Process trumps outcome. Do you see what I'm getting at here? The fact that you made a bad decision by driving backwards on the highway isn't somehow justified or excused by a good outcome (i.e. you not killing yourself, making it through unscathed).

At some point in time the rubber has to meet the road so to speak, luck will only take you so far.

 

Here's the deal

 

I believe that process trumps outcome. I believe in the process of teaching kids to read by having them sleep on books at night. I know this because some kids have learned to read by doing it. I teach my teachers to teach kids to read by telling them to sleep on their books.

 

I never have to be confronted by the outcomes of my teaching because I teach teachers how to teach, so I will always value process more than outcome.

 

My officemate believes that outcome defines good process. He believes in the process of teaching kids how to read by breaking down words into their phonemes and teaching kids sound/letter relationships. He knows this because some kids have learned to read by doing this. He teaches his students to teach kids to read by sounding out letters and breaking words down.

 

However, unlike me he spends time in schools and does research, he therefore knows that it is the outcomes that matter and outcomes are a function of process.

 

Basically you are trying to define process a part from outcome. When the two are inseparable.

 

When I say that a risky performance is not ok just because it worked I'm saying that anyone can get lucky. Consequences always matter. The more luck we have the more likely we think we are on the right path.

[David]

I don't disagree with what you're saying. But my point has little, if anything, to do with determining what good process is.

 

When good process is known (for instance, when statistics dictate what good process is), it is paramount. If a bad decision is made and it results in a good outcome, the good outcome doesn't justify the bad decision. Similarly, if a good decision is made and it results in a bad outcome, the bad outcome doesn't make it a bad decision. Again, we're assuming that what is a good/bad decision is already known either mathematically or by lots and lots of history....

 

This is all I'm trying to say. It amazes me that something so logically simple (and totally intuitive) is easily overlooked by people all of the time. If, for instance, Ozzie Guillen were to send Konerko to steal 3rd, and the catcher throws the ball into left field, there's a good amount of people that will say, "Wow, what a great, gutsy call by Ozzie." I don't understand these people.

[FergieJ31]

I don't disagree with what you're saying. But my point has little, if anything, to do with determining what good process is.

 

When good process is known (for instance, when statistics dictate what good process is), it is paramount. If a bad decision is made and it results in a good outcome, the good outcome doesn't justify the bad decision. Similarly, if a good decision is made and it results in a bad outcome, the bad outcome doesn't make it a bad decision. Again, we're assuming that what is a good/bad decision is already known either mathematically or by lots and lots of history....

 

This is all I'm trying to say. It amazes me that something so logically simple (and totally intuitive) is easily overlooked by people all of the time. If, for instance, Ozzie Guillen were to send Konerko to steal 3rd, and the catcher throws the ball into left field, there's a good amount of people that will say, "Wow, what a great, gutsy call by Ozzie." I don't understand these people.

 

I know exactly what you're saying and I agree 100%. It's espcially true in baseball, where you play 162 games, get 600 PA, etc. The breaks and the noise even out as 1/sqrt(N) gets small.

 

Incidentally I don't think Johnson's bunt attempt was terrible, but I wish he had taken a pitch or two, or taken a healthy swing at one to keep the IF honest. Percival was quoted as saying something like "best bunt play I've ever seen", but then again they saved his bacon the hyperbole is understandable.

 

Look at the replay on that: Longoria had no room for error but neither did Aybar, so I don't understand the argument about how far Johnson was from the bag. He was obviously close enough that any bobble at all, or a throw that's off the mark, would tie the game. All in all it was a reasonable calculated risk, certainly on a par with (and probably greater than) the odds that Johnson doesn't make an out swinging away. Again - he should have taken a pitch or two.

[TruffleShuffle]

if lou had been giving marmol enough work out of the pen, he never would've had those problems in the 7th inning.

[RegulusBlue]

if lou had been giving marmol enough work out of the pen, he never would've had those problems in the 7th inning.

 

Well, at least now we know we have to keep him sharper.

[mikec9971]

Worst things cubs can do right now, (in order) bring back Hill, Play Murton, and get rid of Lou.

[fromthestretch]

Worst things cubs can do right now, (in order) bring back Hill, Play Murton, and get rid of Lou.

 

How exactly are those the worst things the Cubs can do?

[Choonch]

Worst things cubs can do right now, (in order) bring back Hill, Play Murton, and get rid of Lou.

 

Well, that came out of nowhere :-k

[inari]

Worst things cubs can do right now, (in order) bring back Hill, Play Murton, and get rid of Lou.

 

I'm calling this one; troll.

[nobull]

My problem with Lou is that he is waiting for the three run homer. There has not been one. So at some point you must hit and run. Kosuke get's a base hit and he never sent him. How many F^%% double plays must Lee and Theriot hit into. Lee has not hit a homer since Soriano got hurt. When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit. He must get his thumb out his butt and put some players into motion.

[Tracer Bullet]

My problem with Lou is that he is waiting for the three run homer. There has not been one. So at some point you must hit and run. Kosuke get's a base hit and he never sent him. How many F^%% double plays must Lee and Theriot hit into. Lee has not hit a homer since Soriano got hurt. When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit. He must get his thumb out his butt and put some players into motion.

 

You should complain about Lee and ARam so more. Immediate results.

 

ETA: my problem with Lou...well, one of my problems with Lou, is his wasting our short bench by bringing in Micah to pitch hit and taking him out for another hitter when the other manager goes to the pen. If he's so terrible against LHP, don't bring him in unless the manager has just put in a new RHP.

[MPC]

When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit.

HA, I counted two today.

[RynoRules]

When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit.

HA, I counted two today.

 

This post should quoted until the freakin' bd crashes.

[FergieJ31]

When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit.

HA, I counted two today.

 

This post should quoted until the freakin' bd crashes.

 

Yes indeed, and that's no bull.

[David]

When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit.

HA, I counted two today.

 

This post should quoted until the freakin' bd crashes.

 

Yes indeed, and that's no bull.

 

Yup.

[David]

My problem with Lou is that he is waiting for the three run homer. There has not been one. So at some point you must hit and run. Kosuke get's a base hit and he never sent him. How many F^%% double plays must Lee and Theriot hit into. Lee has not hit a homer since Soriano got hurt. When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit. He must get his thumb out his butt and put some players into motion.

 

 

If anything Lou does way too much stupid tinkering and doesn't just let the players play enough.

 

Yes, there are days where you're not gonna get the big hits. Those are the days you lose. There will be at least around 60 of those even if you're really good. You can't force things to happen.

[Schwarber Fan]

When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit.

HA, I counted two today.

 

This post should quoted until the freakin' bd crashes.

 

Yes indeed, and that's no bull.

 

Yup.

[Vanilla Ice]

i never would have guessed somebody would complain about the LACK of hitting and running

[fromthestretch]

My problem with Lou is that he is waiting for the three run homer. There has not been one. So at some point you must hit and run. Kosuke get's a base hit and he never sent him. How many F^%% double plays must Lee and Theriot hit into. Lee has not hit a homer since Soriano got hurt. When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit. He must get his thumb out his butt and put some players into motion.

 

You should complain about Lee and ARam so more. Immediate results.

 

ETA: my problem with Lou...well, one of my problems with Lou, is his wasting our short bench by bringing in Micah to pitch hit and taking him out for another hitter when the other manager goes to the pen. If he's so terrible against LHP, don't bring him in unless the manager has just put in a new RHP.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he hit lefties well in the minors?

[TruffleShuffle]

lou sure sucked today. leaving marmol in was completely idiotic, and the bunt with fontenot in the 11th inning was also dumb (given the situation).

[weis21]

lou sure sucked today. leaving marmol in was completely idiotic, and the bunt with fontenot in the 11th inning was also dumb (given the situation).

The bunt decision may be debatable, I could argue for or against it. However, not pinch running for Marshall, given that Fontenot was bunting, is unforgivably stupid. Obviously Lou was planning on bunting the runner to third and hoping for a sac fly. Surly he wasn't going to ask Marshall to score from third on a sac fly! If he would have gone ahead and substituted Cedeno (pinch runner extraordinaire) when Marshall was on second, I think he could have possibly/probably made it to third safely.

[NCCubFan]

However, not pinch running for Marshall, given that Fontenot was bunting, is unforgivably stupid.

I'm not sure. He has to consider the possibility of the game continuing, and he may have wanted Marshall to continue pitching had the game gone another inning (he's certainly stretched out enough to have been able to do so). The only decision in the game I think was so horrible to be considered unforgiveable was leaving Marmol in the full inning.

[CubsGM]

When was the last time Aramis came through with a big hit.

HA, I counted two today.

 

This post should quoted until the freakin' bd crashes.

 

Yes indeed, and that's no bull.

 

Yup.

[TruffleShuffle]

lou sure sucked today. leaving marmol in was completely idiotic, and the bunt with fontenot in the 11th inning was also dumb (given the situation).

The bunt decision may be debatable, I could argue for or against it. However, not pinch running for Marshall, given that Fontenot was bunting, is unforgivably stupid. Obviously Lou was planning on bunting the runner to third and hoping for a sac fly. Surly he wasn't going to ask Marshall to score from third on a sac fly! If he would have gone ahead and substituted Cedeno (pinch runner extraordinaire) when Marshall was on second, I think he could have possibly/probably made it to third safely.

 

oh i completely disagree. pinch running there is, IMO, a terrible move. when you have one pitcher left in the pen - a guy who hasn't been sharp and is prone to giving up the long ball - you don't do things like pinch running for your current pitcher. the increase in speed/instincts from marshall to cedeno is outweighed by the risk that the bunt is botched, or the next two hitters do not get the runner in from third. marshall could pitch plenty more in that game; let fontenot swing away. you're a pretty good bet to win the game in that half inning, and if you don't, you're still in decent shape pitching-wise.

[BigSlick]

Hmmm interesting bunt discussion

 

Lets lambast Lou more for his use of Marmol plz

 

Or should that go in Rants?