Why is Ryan Theriot in the NL Top 10 Hitters?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Honest question... is Theriot doing anything better than Cedeno right now? Am I just overlooking something?

 

He's the starter, man. You can't bench the starter.

 

if we're doing this, then put ronny cedeno in LF, theriot at SS and soriano on the bench. and continue giving reed johnson the lion's share of the playing time in CF.

 

Actually, it works any way you want to spin it, because Cedeno has superior minor league history, better tools, is more highly regarded as a prospect, etc.

[TruffleShuffle]

Honest question... is Theriot doing anything better than Cedeno right now? Am I just overlooking something?

 

He's the starter, man. You can't bench the starter.

 

if we're doing this, then put ronny cedeno in LF, theriot at SS and soriano on the bench. and continue giving reed johnson the lion's share of the playing time in CF.

 

Actually, it works any way you want to spin it, because Cedeno has superior minor league history, better tools, is more highly regarded as a prospect, etc.

 

okay so are we playing reed johnson over pie or what?

[Little Slide Rooter]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

[C.C.]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

 

And Soriano?

[nilodnayr]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

 

And Soriano?

 

Seriously, people. Listen, I'm the biggest Soriano hater. I was the leader of the anti-sorianos in the thread on his signing, but to want to bench him or "get him off this team" is just ridiculous. People have become so reactionary here its unbelievable. Soriano is the team's best option in LF.

[TruffleShuffle]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

 

And Soriano?

 

Seriously, people. Listen, I'm the biggest Soriano hater. I was the leader of the anti-sorianos in the thread on his signing, but to want to bench him or "get him off this team" is just ridiculous. People have become so reactionary here its unbelievable. Soriano is the team's best option in LF.

 

he's not playing as well as theriot or cedeno, though, so he should ride the pine for a while.

[nilodnayr]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

 

And Soriano?

 

Seriously, people. Listen, I'm the biggest Soriano hater. I was the leader of the anti-sorianos in the thread on his signing, but to want to bench him or "get him off this team" is just ridiculous. People have become so reactionary here its unbelievable. Soriano is the team's best option in LF.

 

he's not playing as well as theriot or cedeno, though, so he should ride the pine for a while.

 

This you can surmise from one game?

[CuseCubFan69]

I want Hank White at third. Dudes got a gun.

[SouthSideRyan]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

 

And Soriano?

 

Seriously, people. Listen, I'm the biggest Soriano hater. I was the leader of the anti-sorianos in the thread on his signing, but to want to bench him or "get him off this team" is just ridiculous. People have become so reactionary here its unbelievable. Soriano is the team's best option in LF.

 

he's not playing as well as theriot or cedeno, though, so he should ride the pine for a while.

 

I don't sense any sarcasm here, but there just has to be some.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

 

And Soriano?

 

Seriously, people. Listen, I'm the biggest Soriano hater. I was the leader of the anti-sorianos in the thread on his signing, but to want to bench him or "get him off this team" is just ridiculous. People have become so reactionary here its unbelievable. Soriano is the team's best option in LF.

 

he's not playing as well as theriot or cedeno, though, so he should ride the pine for a while.

 

I don't sense any sarcasm here, but there just has to be some.

 

It was actually pure sarcasm. I know Soriano is stinking up the joint, but when he heats up, and he will, this will once again become the Soriano Love Palace it was last June.

[Colin Wyers]

This never stops making absolutely no sense. As hot as Theriot's bat is, Cedeno's is hotter. Lou needs to stone up and sit DeRosa and start Cedeno at SS and Theriot at 2nd for the time being or keep DeRosa in and give Cedeno more starts in CF.

 

I swear someday I'm going to have a brain anyeurism reading Cubs message boards.

 

DeRosa: .290/.405/.441, 122 OPS+

Theriot: .340/.409/.447, 124 OPS+

 

Do two points of OPS+ really justify benching the guy who hasn't been caught stealing 30 times already?

 

The real point here is that Theriot is one of the worst defensive shortstops in the league so far this season, and so as soon as his .340 batting average starts to drop, his OBP and SLG are going to quickly become unnacceptable, and he no longer is even providing even the average level of defense he provided last season. Benching DeRosa so that Theriot can play second is simply absurd.

[sneakypower]

The real point here is that Theriot is one of the worst defensive shortstops in the league so far this season,..., and he no longer is even providing even the average level of defense he provided last season.

that causes one to wonder what would cause a player to go from a top-5 defender one season to one of the worst in the league the following season?

 

i have an idea and it involves relying on a defensive metric that considers yuniesky betancourt, bobby crosby and erick aybar dismal fielders.

[CoolHandLuke]

The real point here is that Theriot is one of the worst defensive shortstops in the league so far this season,..., and he no longer is even providing even the average level of defense he provided last season.

that causes one to wonder what would cause a player to go from a top-5 defender one season to one of the worst in the league the following season?

 

i have an idea and it involves relying on a defensive metric that considers yuniesky betancourt, bobby crosby and erick aybar dismal fielders.

 

Your argument is pretty terrible, considering Theriot's defense is also criticized quite a bit from an observational perspective.

[sneakypower]

The real point here is that Theriot is one of the worst defensive shortstops in the league so far this season,..., and he no longer is even providing even the average level of defense he provided last season.

that causes one to wonder what would cause a player to go from a top-5 defender one season to one of the worst in the league the following season?

 

i have an idea and it involves relying on a defensive metric that considers yuniesky betancourt, bobby crosby and erick aybar dismal fielders.

 

Your argument is pretty terrible, considering Theriot's defense is also criticized quite a bit from an observational perspective.

then we can agree that RZR is a waste of time? i just found it ironic to cite a metric that had Theriot top-5 in the game last year to prove his worthlessness this year. the whole post was utterly rife with flawed logic.

 

and furthermore to your point, Lord knows people here view Ryan Theriot with the utmost objectivity...

[Colin Wyers]

The real point here is that Theriot is one of the worst defensive shortstops in the league so far this season,..., and he no longer is even providing even the average level of defense he provided last season.

that causes one to wonder what would cause a player to go from a top-5 defender one season to one of the worst in the league the following season?

 

i have an idea and it involves relying on a defensive metric that considers yuniesky betancourt, bobby crosby and erick aybar dismal fielders.

 

Your argument is pretty terrible, considering Theriot's defense is also criticized quite a bit from an observational perspective.

then we can agree that RZR is a waste of time? i just found it ironic to cite a metric that had Theriot top-5 in the game last year to prove his worthlessness this year. the whole post was utterly rife with flawed logic.

 

and furthermore to your point, Lord knows people here view Ryan Theriot with the utmost objectivity...

 

You can't look at RZR independently - you have to also look at the OOZ numbers. Theriot's OOZ numbers last season were pretty bad, making him average defensively overall, as I recall. Theriot's OOZ numbers this season are below-average as well (he's made six OOZ plays so far this season, compared to around 8.75 OOZ plays by the average shortstop with his chances (you figure OOZ opps by taking his BIZ times .151).

 

Or we could just evaluate a player's defense based upon what the people who like him say. I'm sure that works better.

[sneakypower]

You can't look at RZR independently - you have to also look at the OOZ numbers. Theriot's OOZ numbers last season were pretty bad, making him average defensively overall, as I recall. Theriot's OOZ numbers this season are below-average as well (he's made six OOZ plays so far this season, compared to around 8.75 OOZ plays by the average shortstop with his chances (you figure OOZ opps by taking his BIZ times .151).

 

Or we could just evaluate a player's defense based upon what the people who like him say. I'm sure that works better.

it'd be as informative as people who hate him cherry picking stats to support their clearly biased stance. i'd like for you to show me where i advocated we "evaluate a player's defense based upon what the people who like him say." as you stated whilst making your ridiculous straw man argument.

[Colin Wyers]

You can't look at RZR independently - you have to also look at the OOZ numbers. Theriot's OOZ numbers last season were pretty bad, making him average defensively overall, as I recall. Theriot's OOZ numbers this season are below-average as well (he's made six OOZ plays so far this season, compared to around 8.75 OOZ plays by the average shortstop with his chances (you figure OOZ opps by taking his BIZ times .151).

 

Or we could just evaluate a player's defense based upon what the people who like him say. I'm sure that works better.

it'd be as informative as people who hate him cherry picking stats to support their clearly biased stance. i'd like for you to show me where i advocated we "evaluate a player's defense based upon what the people who like him say." as you stated whilst making your ridiculous straw man argument.

 

What defense metric would you rather we used?

[sneakypower]

well none of them have shown to be reliable or altogether very consistent so it'd kind of be cool to try watching some games and having a civil argument about defense using opinions.

 

but it seems you and so many others are much more concerned with proving to everyone else how stupid they are for disagreeing with numerical manipulations masquerading as empirical proof.

 

 

 

i can see it now, watching a ballgame

 

"wow, what an incredible catch!"

"...i'm going to have to see what dewan et. al has to say about it before i make any judgments"

[CoolHandLuke]

That is the oldest argument in the "saber-hater" book, and it's a terrible one. I think it's safe to say that we all watch a ton of games.

[Yeti]

Cedeno as SS

Theriot at 2B

DeRosa at LF

 

And Soriano?

 

Seriously, people. Listen, I'm the biggest Soriano hater. I was the leader of the anti-sorianos in the thread on his signing, but to want to bench him or "get him off this team" is just ridiculous. People have become so reactionary here its unbelievable. Soriano is the team's best option in LF.

 

he's not playing as well as theriot or cedeno, though, so he should ride the pine for a while.

 

I don't sense any sarcasm here, but there just has to be some.

maybe if it was typed out in green?

[sneakypower]

That is the oldest argument in the "saber-hater" book, and it's a terrible one. I think it's safe to say that we all watch a ton of games.

oh, i'm no saber-hater.

 

a person can't say a negative word about anything saber-related without being filed under "saber-hater"? talk about myopia.

 

and i'm sure that's true that most of the people here watch the games. but watch them and allow yourself some subjectivity. formulate opinions.

[CoolHandLuke]

That is the oldest argument in the "saber-hater" book, and it's a terrible one. I think it's safe to say that we all watch a ton of games.

oh, i'm no saber-hater.

 

a person can't say a negative word about anything saber-related without being filed under "saber-hater"? talk about myopia.

 

and i'm sure that's true that most of the people here watch the games. but watch them and allow yourself some subjectivity. formulate opinions.

 

So you honestly watch Theriot play ss and come away thinking he is a good fielder? I don't think he is terrible, but it's fairly obvious that he doesn't have much in the way of range or arm.

 

And I am sorry, but I'm pretty tired of the whole "watch the game" argument. It's a pretty cheap shot and its usually incorrect.

[TruffleShuffle]

You can't look at RZR independently - you have to also look at the OOZ numbers. Theriot's OOZ numbers last season were pretty bad, making him average defensively overall, as I recall. Theriot's OOZ numbers this season are below-average as well (he's made six OOZ plays so far this season, compared to around 8.75 OOZ plays by the average shortstop with his chances (you figure OOZ opps by taking his BIZ times .151).

 

Or we could just evaluate a player's defense based upon what the people who like him say. I'm sure that works better.

it'd be as informative as people who hate him cherry picking stats to support their clearly biased stance. i'd like for you to show me where i advocated we "evaluate a player's defense based upon what the people who like him say." as you stated whilst making your ridiculous straw man argument.

 

What defense metric would you rather we used?

 

i'd say the "ronny makes that play" metric is the most objective - this metric gauges the number of times that ronny would've successfully fielded a ball between 2B and SS or SS and 3B that theriot was unable to get to. Ronny rates as an astounding +72 in this metric, and we're not even a quarter of the way through the season. Hard to argue with them stats.

[sneakypower]

That is the oldest argument in the "saber-hater" book, and it's a terrible one. I think it's safe to say that we all watch a ton of games.

oh, i'm no saber-hater.

 

a person can't say a negative word about anything saber-related without being filed under "saber-hater"? talk about myopia.

 

and i'm sure that's true that most of the people here watch the games. but watch them and allow yourself some subjectivity. formulate opinions.

 

So you honestly watch Theriot play ss and come away thinking he is a good fielder? I don't think he is terrible, but it's fairly obvious that he doesn't have much in the way of range or arm.

 

And I am sorry, but I'm pretty tired of the whole "watch the game" argument. It's a pretty cheap shot and its usually incorrect.

last year i saw him as very adequate in the field, making up for lack of arm strength with sound fundamentals and decent range to his left, but this year he's been disappointing- most notably the past week & a half or so. but he's also making boneheaded mistakes on the bases, while his hitting has been terrific.

 

it's really been bizarro-Theriot thus far.

[Colin Wyers]

last year i saw him as very adequate in the field, making up for lack of arm strength with sound fundamentals and decent range to his left, but this year he's been disappointing- most notably the past week & a half or so. but he's also making boneheaded mistakes on the bases, while his hitting has been terrific.

 

So... basically what the zone rating stats said.