Question about baseball rules in a highly specific situation

[Priorknowledge]

My friend and I were playing a video game where a situation occured that led to a brief debate about the application of MLB rules in a certain situation. I figured the intelligent baseball minds here would know the answer to this.

 

The situation is the bases are loaded with one out. A fly ball is hit to left field. A runner at second starts to go to third and is halfway there when the ball is caught. After the ball is caught, meaning two outs, the runner at third tags up. Meanwhile, the runner who was at second remains between second and third for whatever reason. The runner who correctly waited for the ball to be caught and tagged up from third crosses home plate, beating a throw from the left fielder while crossing the plate. The catcher realizes that the runner who started at second never tagged up and is in fact on his way back to avoid getting doubled up. The catcher throws to second before the runner who didn't tag up can return, recording the third out and ending the inning.

 

Our question is does the run scored by the player from third count? Or did the player getting doubled up at second mean the run didn't count?

 

I'd be very appreciate if anyone knew the answer and if there is a specific MLB rule that deals with this.

[Yanksfan1523]

The run counts because he scored before the third out was made.

[Andy]

The run counts because he scored before the third out was made.

I think usually this is the case but for some reason I have a hunch that it might be different in the case of a double off. I think you may have to tag because until then you don't have a claim to any base.

[Priorknowledge]

The run counts because he scored before the third out was made.

That's too simplistic of an explanation. A runner might cross home before the throw reaches first on a conventional double play in a bases loaded situation. But that run doesn't count if the doubleplay is completed.

 

Not saying that it's a not a run, just saying that rationale isn't the reason the run counts.

 

Again, looking if anybody knows the specific rule applying to this situation.

[Outshined_One]

I'm guessing the run counts. We had a similar situation in a softball game a few days ago that had people confused.

 

Runners were at the corners with two outs. The batter hits a pop-up behind first base. The runner at 1B doesn't go full bore. The ball drops and the runner at third scores easily. However, there's a quick relay to second base, where the runner was tagged out (rather than forced out). Being a bunch of law students, a massive weird discussion ensued where over whether the run scored where everyone pretended they knew what they were talking about, but no one could come to terms on the answer.

 

My gut instinct on that one was, since it was a tag play and not a force play, the run scored. I got backup from the commissioners. However, I'm still not 100% sure on it.

[chuckywang]

I'll be the dissenting voice and say the run doesn't count because the guy who was on second was "forced" out. He was out without the need for a tag.

[CubColtPacer]

I'll be the dissenting voice and say the run doesn't count because the guy who was on second was "forced" out. He was out without the need for a tag.

 

I thought so as well, but apparently it counts:

 

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp

[bukie]

I've always been under the impression that if it isn't the batter that makes the third out, if a run crosses the plate before the out, it counts. So, someone getting doubled off a base, similar to someone doing a double play in reverse (where the throw goes to first base first, then to second to tag the runner), any runs that score in the mean time should count.

[SouthSideRyan]

I've always been under the impression that if it isn't the batter that makes the third out, if a run crosses the plate before the out, it counts. So, someone getting doubled off a base, similar to someone doing a double play in reverse (where the throw goes to first base first, then to second to tag the runner), any runs that score in the mean time should count.

 

I always understood it as force outs take precedent over the runner scoring. Say the bases are loaded, Pie's at 3rd and Soto's at 1st. On a ball hit deep in the hole that barely forces out Soto at 2nd after Pie crosses home, the run doesn't count. That's why I'm surprised at CCP's explanation. I always understood those plays to be force outs.

[Yanksfan1523]

The run counts because he scored before the third out was made.

I think usually this is the case but for some reason I have a hunch that it might be different in the case of a double off. I think you may have to tag because until then you don't have a claim to any base.

 

That is true on a standard double play, because the hitter has to be out. In this case however the hitter is the first out. This would be akin to the throw going home and the runner on second breaking for third. The catcher can throw to third and get the runner out, but the run counts.

[chuckywang]

I've always been under the impression that if it isn't the batter that makes the third out, if a run crosses the plate before the out, it counts. So, someone getting doubled off a base, similar to someone doing a double play in reverse (where the throw goes to first base first, then to second to tag the runner), any runs that score in the mean time should count.

 

I always understood it as force outs take precedent over the runner scoring. Say the bases are loaded, Pie's at 3rd and Soto's at 1st. On a ball hit deep in the hole that barely forces out Soto at 2nd after Pie crosses home, the run doesn't count. That's why I'm surprised at CCP's explanation. I always understood those plays to be force outs.

 

I think some confusion lies in what the exact definition of "Force Out" is. I think MLB defines it as when a runner MUST move up a base, and you can get the out by just throwing to the base he's moving towards.

 

Doubling someone off a base is not considered a force out. So yes, SouthSideRyan: Force out do take precedence over the runner scoring, but the situation the original poster brought up is not considered a force out.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I've always been under the impression that if it isn't the batter that makes the third out, if a run crosses the plate before the out, it counts. So, someone getting doubled off a base, similar to someone doing a double play in reverse (where the throw goes to first base first, then to second to tag the runner), any runs that score in the mean time should count.

 

I always understood it as force outs take precedent over the runner scoring. Say the bases are loaded, Pie's at 3rd and Soto's at 1st. On a ball hit deep in the hole that barely forces out Soto at 2nd after Pie crosses home, the run doesn't count. That's why I'm surprised at CCP's explanation. I always understood those plays to be force outs.

 

I think some confusion lies in what the exact definition of "Force Out" is. I think MLB defines it as when a runner MUST move up a base, and you can get the out by just throwing to the base he's moving towards.

 

Doubling someone off a base is not considered a force out. So yes, SouthSideRyan: Force out do take precedence over the runner scoring, but the situation the original poster brought up is not considered a force out.

yes, what he said

[Yanksfan1523]

I've always been under the impression that if it isn't the batter that makes the third out, if a run crosses the plate before the out, it counts. So, someone getting doubled off a base, similar to someone doing a double play in reverse (where the throw goes to first base first, then to second to tag the runner), any runs that score in the mean time should count.

 

I always understood it as force outs take precedent over the runner scoring. Say the bases are loaded, Pie's at 3rd and Soto's at 1st. On a ball hit deep in the hole that barely forces out Soto at 2nd after Pie crosses home, the run doesn't count. That's why I'm surprised at CCP's explanation. I always understood those plays to be force outs.

 

I think some confusion lies in what the exact definition of "Force Out" is. I think MLB defines it as when a runner MUST move up a base, and you can get the out by just throwing to the base he's moving towards.

 

Doubling someone off a base is not considered a force out. So yes, SouthSideRyan: Force out do take precedence over the runner scoring, but the situation the original poster brought up is not considered a force out.

 

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. The runner at second was not a force out.