Re: Where's Meph? (Khalil Greene)

[XZero771679666304]

.222/.277/.293 guy

You aren't really going to use this year's numbers to tell if a player's good or not, are you? I thought you were better than that. But I guess if you want to play that game, I have a question for you. There's another SS putting up these numbers: .152/.226/.238 Do you think it would be dumb to trade for him? Well if so, you just turned down a trade for Troy Tulowitzki, wtg dude.

Tulowitzki as a rookie put up superior production to anything Greene's ever done. And he's not hitting FA next year asking for 8 figures per year.

 

Tulowitzki plays in Coors 81 times, he hit .256/.327/.393/.719 away from home.

home games don't count anymore? i guess i havent been keeping up with all these rule changes. damn that bud selig.

 

Garrett Atkins also had a .254/.327/.446 road line too, which seems to indicate this guy blows as well. until you look at his road OPS in 2006 and notice it's virtually the same as his home OPS. but Tulowitzki only has one season of data which to look at and we can all think he's an inferior player to Khalil Greene because of a split which is really often fluky. everything I've seen when watching both players suggests differently.

 

 

Come on. Atkins is an exception to the rule. If you look at last year's numbers, Colorado as a team had an OPS .123 points higher at home. .101 points higher in 2006. .158 in 2005. Holliday, Helton, Castilla, Bichette....virtually every notable player the Rockies have ever had displayed extreme home/road splits. There is no fluke here.

 

Coors field consistently inflates numbers, and it's a fairly safe bet that Tulo benefited from this. Sure thing? No. But extremely likely.

 

The reverse applies to Petco and Greene.

Edited April 29, 2008 by XZero77

[C.C.]

No, but when you play all your home games in park that inflates numbers dramatically across the board (Coors) of suppresses them dramatically across the board (Petco), your road numbers are more indicative of your "true talent". If you move a player from one of these parks to a more neutral home park, you can expect their overall numbers to move toward their road averages. Or if you move them to divisions with more hitter friendly (Central) you may even expect an increase.

 

Damn that empirical sense.

how exactly does Petco disable a player from hitting for average? if he's content hitting flyballs into fielders gloves every home game, he's an incredibly dumb baseball player. i'd like to ask why he hasn't changed his approach at home so that he's not a quintessential detriment to his team.

 

We're not looking at his average. Look at his production.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Why are we trying to give up on Cedeno now? Granted, theres a good chance that his past few weeks have been a fluke, and he'll go back to being a .222 hitter, but his numbers at every minor league level show that he does in fact at least have the potential to succeed in the bigs. I doubt he'll ever be a .350/100 RBI guy. but I could see him as a .285/15 HR guy, which is better than Green anyway.

[XZero771679666304]

No, but when you play all your home games in park that inflates numbers dramatically across the board (Coors) of suppresses them dramatically across the board (Petco), your road numbers are more indicative of your "true talent". If you move a player from one of these parks to a more neutral home park, you can expect their overall numbers to move toward their road averages. Or if you move them to divisions with more hitter friendly (Central) you may even expect an increase.

 

Damn that empirical sense.

how exactly does Petco disable a player from hitting for average? if he's content hitting flyballs into fielders gloves every home game, he's an incredibly dumb baseball player. i'd like to ask why he hasn't changed his approach at home so that he's not a quintessential detriment to his team.

 

No one here is going to argue that AVG/OBP are Greene's strong points. His assets are his glove, and his slugging, which he does .100+ points better on the road, at a .500 clip over his past three seasons. The net result (OPS, which is more important then AVG) is good. You don't bat him near the top, you tuck him in the 5/6 slot and let him slug.

[sneakypower]

No, but when you play all your home games in park that inflates numbers dramatically across the board (Coors) of suppresses them dramatically across the board (Petco), your road numbers are more indicative of your "true talent". If you move a player from one of these parks to a more neutral home park, you can expect their overall numbers to move toward their road averages. Or if you move them to divisions with more hitter friendly (Central) you may even expect an increase.

 

Damn that empirical sense.

how exactly does Petco disable a player from hitting for average? if he's content hitting flyballs into fielders gloves every home game, he's an incredibly dumb baseball player. i'd like to ask why he hasn't changed his approach at home so that he's not a quintessential detriment to his team.

 

We're not looking at his average. Look at his production.

he doesn't have the power hit HRs in petco. we all realize this. it might be a good idea perhaps to try something different at home so you're not punishing your own ballclub. there's really no reasonable excuse for hitting .227 at your home park.

[C.C.]

Why are we trying to give up on Cedeno now? Granted, theres a good chance that his past few weeks have been a fluke, and he'll go back to being a .222 hitter, but his numbers at every minor league level show that he does in fact at least have the potential to succeed in the bigs. I doubt he'll ever be a .350/100 RBI guy. but I could see him as a .285/15 HR guy, which is better than Green anyway.

 

No it's really not.

[Pushfrog98]

hmmm. sign a guy at age 16. spend 7 years turning him into a terrific prospect, and after giving him 4 starts to prove himself trade him for a .222/.277/.293 guy about to hit FA next year. i think every time i feel depressed about Hendry's performance as a GM i'll read this thread and breath a sigh of relief that it could be far, far worse.

 

Put Greene in the central and he's good for 25-30 homers, and possibly 35, IMO.

only 35? hell- why not 54? or 70?

 

27 in Petco last year. Go from playing in Petco, Dodger Stadium, Pac Bell, etc. to Wrigley, MMP, GABP, Miller. All great parks for RH pull hitters. He already OPS' .150 higher on the road, almost all in SLG. 25-30 is very realistic, and 35 is high end.

 

 

Nothing unrealistic there.

15, 15, 15, 27. which one of these doesn't belong? but maybe he figured out how to be a good hitter last year and changed his swing somehow. indications this year thus far don't really support that notion.

 

and by the way, he had 12 at petco last year as opposed to 15 on the road. his HR power wasn't really terribly thwarted.

Oh! Oh! Let me play!!!

 

36, 40, 36, 66

[Sammy Sofa]

Why are we trying to give up on Cedeno now? Granted, theres a good chance that his past few weeks have been a fluke, and he'll go back to being a .222 hitter, but his numbers at every minor league level show that he does in fact at least have the potential to succeed in the bigs. I doubt he'll ever be a .350/100 RBI guy. but I could see him as a .285/15 HR guy, which is better than Green anyway.

 

Just stop it.

[XZero771679666304]

No, but when you play all your home games in park that inflates numbers dramatically across the board (Coors) of suppresses them dramatically across the board (Petco), your road numbers are more indicative of your "true talent". If you move a player from one of these parks to a more neutral home park, you can expect their overall numbers to move toward their road averages. Or if you move them to divisions with more hitter friendly (Central) you may even expect an increase.

 

Damn that empirical sense.

how exactly does Petco disable a player from hitting for average? if he's content hitting flyballs into fielders gloves every home game, he's an incredibly dumb baseball player. i'd like to ask why he hasn't changed his approach at home so that he's not a quintessential detriment to his team.

 

We're not looking at his average. Look at his production.

he doesn't have the power hit HRs in petco. we all realize this. it might be a good idea perhaps to try something different at home so you're not punishing your own ballclub. there's really no reasonable excuse for hitting .227 at your home park.

 

San Diego as a team hit .235 at home, .265 on the road. .245 at home in 2006, .279 away. They were first in the NL in road avg in 2006, and dead last in home average. 2005 was close, but again .032 diff in home away AVG in 2004.

 

Offensive numbers across the board suffer at Petco. Maybe Adrian Gonzales (-.030 AVG at Petco vs. road), Brian Giles (-.041 AVG at Petco vs. road) and Co. are stupid baseball players as well.

Edited April 29, 2008 by XZero77

[Little Slide Rooter]

Why are we trying to give up on Cedeno now? Granted, theres a good chance that his past few weeks have been a fluke, and he'll go back to being a .222 hitter, but his numbers at every minor league level show that he does in fact at least have the potential to succeed in the bigs. I doubt he'll ever be a .350/100 RBI guy. but I could see him as a .285/15 HR guy, which is better than Green anyway.

 

Just stop it.

 

Stop what? Explainign that theres no point in trading for a mediocre player when we have 2 guys who can potentially be just as mediocre as Green? Lets just go ahead and trade for CoCo Crisp when we already HAVE Reed Johnson and Felix Pie. I'm not saying that Cedeno is a gyuaranteed impact, but I am saying that theres no point trading unless its going to make an impact. Now if Texas was waving Michael Young in our faces, or for some reason Tampa Bay wanted to get rid of Carl Crawford, by all means go for it, but I will not join the Khalil Green band wagon.

[Derwood]

Why are we trying to give up on Cedeno now? Granted, theres a good chance that his past few weeks have been a fluke, and he'll go back to being a .222 hitter, but his numbers at every minor league level show that he does in fact at least have the potential to succeed in the bigs. I doubt he'll ever be a .350/100 RBI guy. but I could see him as a .285/15 HR guy, which is better than Green anyway.

 

Just stop it.

 

Stop what? Explainign that theres no point in trading for a mediocre player when we have 2 guys who can potentially be just as mediocre as Green? Lets just go ahead and trade for CoCo Crisp when we already HAVE Reed Johnson and Felix Pie. I'm not saying that Cedeno is a gyuaranteed impact, but I am saying that theres no point trading unless its going to make an impact. Now if Texas was waving Michael Young in our faces, or for some reason Tampa Bay wanted to get rid of Carl Crawford, by all means go for it, but I will not join the Khalil Green band wagon.

 

so having one player who can put up the numbers of your two players isn't an upgrade?

[Sammy Sofa]

You're not on the bandwagon because you're focusing on batting averages. Well done.

[mdwilla]

Pie + Theriot in Exchange for Greene and a prospect .

 

Sign Lofton to platoon with Johnson in center.

 

This move improves the team and let's Hendry keep a couple bullets for the deadline.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Why are we trying to give up on Cedeno now? Granted, theres a good chance that his past few weeks have been a fluke, and he'll go back to being a .222 hitter, but his numbers at every minor league level show that he does in fact at least have the potential to succeed in the bigs. I doubt he'll ever be a .350/100 RBI guy. but I could see him as a .285/15 HR guy, which is better than Green anyway.

 

Just stop it.

 

Stop what? Explainign that theres no point in trading for a mediocre player when we have 2 guys who can potentially be just as mediocre as Green? Lets just go ahead and trade for CoCo Crisp when we already HAVE Reed Johnson and Felix Pie. I'm not saying that Cedeno is a gyuaranteed impact, but I am saying that theres no point trading unless its going to make an impact. Now if Texas was waving Michael Young in our faces, or for some reason Tampa Bay wanted to get rid of Carl Crawford, by all means go for it, but I will not join the Khalil Green band wagon.

 

so having one player who can put up the numbers of your two players isn't an upgrade?

 

Sure it is. Michael Young would be great.

[Backtobanks]

The bottom line is that this deal won't happen for one big reason:

Lou and Hendry Love Theriot.

[JimSorgi]

Okay, I don't think this memo was sent to everyone: OPS >>>>>>>>>> AVG

[anabiono]

um...wow...this is a situation where i wouldn't mind getting coco...

 

holy crap holy crap holy crap!!!!

 

although, with all of the brian roberts nonsense this offseason...i am somewhat in the "yeah right" boat on this one...but i think that is a good thing...

 

the brian roberts deal stole a little piece of my soul... :blackeye:

[SouthSideRyan]

I can't wait til Kenny Lofton retires.

[sneakypower]

Okay, I don't think this memo was sent to everyone: OPS >>>>>>>>>> AVG

who is arguing against that?

[JimSorgi]

Michael Young would be great.

Only if Texas was willing to pay a lot of that ridiculous contract.

[Sammy Sofa]

Okay, I don't think this memo was sent to everyone: OPS >>>>>>>>>> AVG

who is arguing against that?

 

LLF was ignoring it.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

.222/.277/.293 guy

You aren't really going to use this year's numbers to tell if a player's good or not, are you? I thought you were better than that. But I guess if you want to play that game, I have a question for you. There's another SS putting up these numbers: .152/.226/.238 Do you think it would be dumb to trade for him? Well if so, you just turned down a trade for Troy Tulowitzki, wtg dude.

Tulowitzki as a rookie put up superior production to anything Greene's ever done. And he's not hitting FA next year asking for 8 figures per year.

 

Tulowitzki plays in Coors 81 times, he hit .256/.327/.393/.719 away from home.

home games don't count anymore? i guess i havent been keeping up with all these rule changes. damn that bud selig.

 

Context matters if you're going to say "Tulowitzki put up superior production to anything Greene's ever done".

 

And the insinuation that Greene can simply bump his average significantly by "playing to the park" or something like that is absurd. Petco has been in the bottom five ballparks for hits for the last 5 years. This isn't some phenomenon that's exclusive to Greene. Dave Roberts hit .233 there in 2005, and he's the prototypical slap the ball guy.

[CoolHandLuke]

When you take the ballparks out of the equation, I would say that Michael Young and Khalil Greene offer pretty similar overall value as hitters. When you add in Greene's defense, and the fact that he is younger, I think he is more valuable than Young.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

When you take the ballparks out of the equation, I would say that Michael Young and Khalil Greene offer pretty similar overall value as hitters. When you add in Greene's defense, and the fact that he is younger, I think he is more valuable than Young.

 

If anything, Greene is better when you consider ballpark. Young's never done anything away from Arlington.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Okay, I don't think this memo was sent to everyone: OPS >>>>>>>>>> AVG

who is arguing against that?

 

LLF was ignoring it.

 

Green has a career OPS of .747. Not so great. Would he do better in Wrigley. Certainly. Enough to make it worth while? Maybe. The point is, until it happens, this will remain speculation.