Starters make the best bullpen pitchers

[Jon]

Apparently Marshall has been converted from a starter to a LOOGY. And Marmol throws nearly enough pitches to start every time he takes the mound, yet he can't start, either.

 

Does Piniella have any idea what he's doing with the bullpen? If the goal is to minimize the value of his pitchers, he's doing a great job.

[Shilzzz]

40 pitches for Marmol today. Ugh.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Marmol is making Piniella really lazy with his pen use, and he's going to burn him out by mid August at this rate.

[Exile on Waveland]

I'm very concerned about Marmol.

[abuck1220]

if marmol can throw 40 pitches twice a week (maybe with a 12 pitch outing in there too), why can't he throw 100 pitches once a week?

[UMFan83]

Good to see you starting threads and in general posting with a little more regularity again Jon.

 

I agree, wth is Lou doing?

[brinoch]

I'm not exactly pleased with Lou's managing thus far this year. I understand, though don't agree with, his usage of Hill. He most likely wanted Rich to gain some confidence out there, and so he pulled him after five innings. I get that. What I don't like, or understand, is why he used Lieber for 2/3rds of an inning and Marshall as a loogy. Those are your long guys, not your short guys.

 

And then to bring Marmol in for two innings and 40+ pitches? That's nuts. Against the bottom of the order in the 7th inning, Wuertz, Howry or Hart would be fine. Use Marmol/Wood in the 8th/9th innings against the better hitters.

 

Personally, I would have left Hill in for one more inning, though with a short hook. I also wouldn't have brought Marmol in to start an inning until the 8th; which also preserves him for a high leverage situation tomorrow where I have him if I need him.

[bring stone back]

I'm not exactly pleased with Lou's managing thus far this year. I understand, though don't agree with, his usage of Hill. He most likely wanted Rich to gain some confidence out there, and so he pulled him after five innings. I get that. What I don't like, or understand, is why he used Lieber for 2/3rds of an inning and Marshall as a loogy. Those are your long guys, not your short guys.

 

Probably because right now - those are the guys he trusts. Would you want to put Howry or Wuertz in a close game right now? I wouldn't and it looks like Lou wouldn't either. Let's not get caught up with long or short relief - just guys who will get outs until the rest of the bullpen straightens themself out.

 

I hope/assume that will change in a couple weeks but for today it was smart and it worked.

[abuck1220]

I'm not exactly pleased with Lou's managing thus far this year. I understand, though don't agree with, his usage of Hill. He most likely wanted Rich to gain some confidence out there, and so he pulled him after five innings. I get that. What I don't like, or understand, is why he used Lieber for 2/3rds of an inning and Marshall as a loogy. Those are your long guys, not your short guys.

 

Probably because right now - those are the guys he trusts. Would you want to put Howry or Wuertz in a close game right now? I wouldn't and it looks like Lou wouldn't either. Let's not get caught up with long or short relief - just guys who will get outs until the rest of the bullpen straightens themself out.

 

I hope/assume that will change in a couple weeks but for today it was smart and it worked.

 

yeah, for today. and i'm guessing you'll be the first one crying about overuse when the cubs can't hold a lead in august because marmol's got a broken arm. you don't manage baseball games for today.

[Guest]

Hill: 82 pitches

Lieber: 9 pitches

Marshall: 2 pitches

Marmol: 43 pitches

 

#-o

[brinoch]

I'm not exactly pleased with Lou's managing thus far this year. I understand, though don't agree with, his usage of Hill. He most likely wanted Rich to gain some confidence out there, and so he pulled him after five innings. I get that. What I don't like, or understand, is why he used Lieber for 2/3rds of an inning and Marshall as a loogy. Those are your long guys, not your short guys.

 

Probably because right now - those are the guys he trusts. Would you want to put Howry or Wuertz in a close game right now? I wouldn't and it looks like Lou wouldn't either. Let's not get caught up with long or short relief - just guys who will get outs until the rest of the bullpen straightens themself out.

 

I hope/assume that will change in a couple weeks but for today it was smart and it worked.

 

You can't get on track until and unless you're thrown out there a couple of times; it's a long season. Despite their early struggles vis-a-vis Lieber and Marshall's early successes, I still trust Wuertz and Howry in short situations more. Wuertz, by the way, is only pitching poorly in comparison to a small sample size. Wuertz has a 1.38 WHIP and his 5.63 K/9 is 4th among the bullpen (behind Marmol, Wood and Hart).

[bring stone back]

I'm not exactly pleased with Lou's managing thus far this year. I understand, though don't agree with, his usage of Hill. He most likely wanted Rich to gain some confidence out there, and so he pulled him after five innings. I get that. What I don't like, or understand, is why he used Lieber for 2/3rds of an inning and Marshall as a loogy. Those are your long guys, not your short guys.

 

Probably because right now - those are the guys he trusts. Would you want to put Howry or Wuertz in a close game right now? I wouldn't and it looks like Lou wouldn't either. Let's not get caught up with long or short relief - just guys who will get outs until the rest of the bullpen straightens themself out.

 

I hope/assume that will change in a couple weeks but for today it was smart and it worked.

 

yeah, for today. and i'm guessing you'll be the first one crying about overuse when the cubs can't hold a lead in august because marmol's got a broken arm. you don't manage baseball games for today.

 

Let's see - Marmol has had the last 3 days off and will likely be getting a day off tomorrow regardless yet he pitched 40 pitches today? Oh my, God - I'm surprised Marmol is not dead!!

 

You don't manage games for today? Interesting - should Lou be aligning his bullpen for the playoff stretch in April then? I can't believe he threw Wood so much in Spring Training knowing full well we'd need him in September.

 

If Marmol breaks his arm falling out of a tree or something - that is out of my control but I will likely not cry. Thanks for your concern.

[bring stone back]

I'm not exactly pleased with Lou's managing thus far this year. I understand, though don't agree with, his usage of Hill. He most likely wanted Rich to gain some confidence out there, and so he pulled him after five innings. I get that. What I don't like, or understand, is why he used Lieber for 2/3rds of an inning and Marshall as a loogy. Those are your long guys, not your short guys.

 

Probably because right now - those are the guys he trusts. Would you want to put Howry or Wuertz in a close game right now? I wouldn't and it looks like Lou wouldn't either. Let's not get caught up with long or short relief - just guys who will get outs until the rest of the bullpen straightens themself out.

 

I hope/assume that will change in a couple weeks but for today it was smart and it worked.

 

You can't get on track until and unless you're thrown out there a couple of times; it's a long season. Despite their early struggles vis-a-vis Lieber and Marshall's early successes, I still trust Wuertz and Howry in short situations more. Wuertz, by the way, is only pitching poorly in comparison to a small sample size. Wuertz has a 1.38 WHIP and his 5.63 K/9 is 4th among the bullpen (behind Marmol, Wood and Hart).

 

Which is why you saw those guys pitching when the Cubs were being routed by the Reds. We all know, including Lou, those guys will be contributors to the bullpen but right now they're not pitching well and non-pressure situations are ideal for them until they get "right."

 

Let them use that time to get comfortable but when it's a 1 or 2 run game - I'll take Marmol and Wood over Wuertz and Howry - wouldn't you?

[brinoch]

 

Which is why you saw those guys pitching when the Cubs were being routed by the Reds. We all know, including Lou, those guys will be contributors to the bullpen but right now they're not pitching well and non-pressure situations are ideal for them until they get "right."

 

Let them use that time to get comfortable but when it's a 1 or 2 run game - I'll take Marmol and Wood over Wuertz and Howry - wouldn't you?

 

Sure, and I never said I had a problem with that... indeed, in my post I specifically said that I would have used Marmol/Wood for the 8th/9th. It's pulling Hill early, using Lieber and Marshall for short stints, and extending Marmol too much that I have the problem with. And I fairly clearly said that.

 

And then to bring Marmol in for two innings and 40+ pitches? That's nuts. Against the bottom of the order in the 7th inning, Wuertz, Howry or Hart would be fine. Use Marmol/Wood in the 8th/9th innings against the better hitters.

 

The 7th had Marmol facing Paulino, Bautista and Morgan. Not exactly murderers row there. And certainly there's no need for your best reliever when your 4th or 5th best will get the job done -- allowing you to use your best reliever against their best hitters.

[Clem Fandango]

Marmol was bred to be a starter in the minors. He wasn't primarily used for short relief stints until his call up last year when he blossomed into a dominating middle reliever. He has the makeup of a starter, him throwing 40 pitches won't kill him if they're spread out between an inning of work here or there throughout the week. He's an athletic guy, I'm sure he can handle it once every other week if he needs to. He threw 42 against Milwaukee a couple weeks ago, took a day off, and then pitched the next three consecutive games and shut it down. I think some people might be overreacting about Marmol's over usage. He was brought up with the intent on being a starter, throwing anywhere from 80-120 pitches a game on average 32 times a year or so . This won't kill him if he's given adequate rest.

[RynoRules]

Not sure what the hand-wringing is about where Marmol is concerned. Its a bit early to say that he is being overused. As Logan said, if he gets enough rest between outings it should not be a problem.

 

Marshall is a different story - I'd like to see him in the rotation, but at least he is facing ML hitters for the time being.

[Chocolate Milk]

Marmol was bred to be a starter in the minors. He wasn't primarily used for short relief stints until his call up last year when he blossomed into a dominating middle reliever. He has the makeup of a starter, him throwing 40 pitches won't kill him if they're spread out between an inning of work here or there throughout the week.

Sounds like he should be starting then.

 

How exactly can you be "bred" as a starter? Marmol hasn't been a starter for quite some time. I doub't the work he did some years ago in the minors is really having much of an impact now.

[bring stone back]

 

Which is why you saw those guys pitching when the Cubs were being routed by the Reds. We all know, including Lou, those guys will be contributors to the bullpen but right now they're not pitching well and non-pressure situations are ideal for them until they get "right."

 

Let them use that time to get comfortable but when it's a 1 or 2 run game - I'll take Marmol and Wood over Wuertz and Howry - wouldn't you?

 

Sure, and I never said I had a problem with that... indeed, in my post I specifically said that I would have used Marmol/Wood for the 8th/9th. It's pulling Hill early, using Lieber and Marshall for short stints, and extending Marmol too much that I have the problem with. And I fairly clearly said that.

 

And then to bring Marmol in for two innings and 40+ pitches? That's nuts. Against the bottom of the order in the 7th inning, Wuertz, Howry or Hart would be fine. Use Marmol/Wood in the 8th/9th innings against the better hitters.

 

The 7th had Marmol facing Paulino, Bautista and Morgan. Not exactly murderers row there. And certainly there's no need for your best reliever when your 4th or 5th best will get the job done -- allowing you to use your best reliever against their best hitters.

 

I don't see how you're extending Marmol too much by throwing him 2 innings when he had 3 days off before and will very likely get tomorrow off.

 

How do you know the 4th or 5th best pitchers could get the job done? As I clearly said, I wouldn't trust Wuertz or Howry in any meaningful game - especially with Marmol sitting there with 3 days rest regardless of who you're facing.

[Clem Fandango]

Marmol was bred to be a starter in the minors. He wasn't primarily used for short relief stints until his call up last year when he blossomed into a dominating middle reliever. He has the makeup of a starter, him throwing 40 pitches won't kill him if they're spread out between an inning of work here or there throughout the week.

Sounds like he should be starting then.

 

How exactly can you be "bred" as a starter? Marmol hasn't been a starter for quite some time. I doub't the work he did some years ago in the minors is really having much of an impact now.

 

It was a figure of speech, and Marmol was in the minors at the beginning of last year starting games. So yeah, he was considered a starting pitcher pretty much exactly one year ago today. He didn't turn into a reliever until he kicked butt when he was called up last May. I'm sure he still has some starter qualities about him.

 

So in the end, when we're complaining that we're using our starters in the pen for short inning relief, and using Marmol for long relief when he's not a starter, he actually kind of was a starter. For 4 and a half years. Until May of last season. So yeah, I think he can handle the work load (arm strength/health wise) as long as it's every other week and not every other day like some people are concerned about

[Sammy Sofa]

Which is why you saw those guys pitching when the Cubs were being routed by the Reds. We all know, including Lou, those guys will be contributors to the bullpen but right now they're not pitching well and non-pressure situations are ideal for them until they get "right."

 

The problem is, the Cubs don't know when they'll be in non-pressure situations. They could have a stretch where alll the games are tight and close. Wuertz and Howry aren't going to work things out by not getting into games...Lou needs to pitch them. Sitting them to make them "right" is the same anti-logic tha assumes guys like Pie and Patterson will get better sitting instead of starting because they weren't good right out of the gate.

 

As for Marmol, unless the Cubs are going to turn him into a starter, I want him traded.

[apete6]

As for Marmol, unless the Cubs are going to turn him into a starter, I want him traded.

 

Unless they are getting a legitimate starting SS (think Khalil Greene), I think that is ridiculous. With Marmol and Wood pitching like they have for the most part, the game is over after 7 innings.

 

Marmol is making peanuts and you lose Howry and Eyre next season (and their contracts) and maybe Wood if he gets hurt or they don't offer him enough cash. Unless Wuertz or someone else morphs into Marmol-like domination, you have a crappy end of game situation next year without Marmol.

[Clem Fandango]

As for Marmol, unless the Cubs are going to turn him into a starter, I want him traded.

 

Unless they are getting a legitimate starting SS (think Khalil Greene), I think that is ridiculous. With Marmol and Wood pitching like they have for the most part, the game is over after 7 innings.

 

Marmol is making peanuts and you lose Howry and Eyre next season (and their contracts) and maybe Wood if he gets hurt or they don't offer him enough cash. Unless Wuertz or someone else morphs into Marmol-like domination, you have a crappy end of game situation next year without Marmol.

 

But would we have a World Series Championship this year?

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. But yeah, if someone randomly stepped up and showed Marmol-esque dominance, I'd consider floating Marmol's name out there to see what people would at the very least offer just to see what he's worth. If not, no point in losing him

[Guest]

Marmol would really need to improve his pitch efficiency to be a good starting candidate. He's at 16.1 p/ip right now, which is the best in his career. However, that still isn't good enough to start. I'd love to see the move, but he has things to work on if he's going to last in the rotation.

[Jon]

Good to see you starting threads and in general posting with a little more regularity again Jon.

 

I agree, wth is Lou doing?

I've gotten used to the a lot of things this organization does to piss me off, but playing worse veterans over already better younger players is one thing that I just can't get over. This includes starting vs. pitching out of the bullpen.

 

The biggest problem with Marmol throwing 40 pitches in relief is that the Cubs aren't isn't maximizing his production. If he's throwing that many pitches in an outing, certainly not all of them are coming in high leverage situations relative to the typical late inning relief appearance. Of course, if he theoretically throws only in high leverage situations, he's not racking up the innings to maximize his production, either. The simplest solution is to make him a starter.

 

And as for Marshall, I'm mostly speechless:

 

4/18 - 0.1 IP, 2 pitches

4/17 - 0.1 IP, 2 pitches

4/13 - 0.2 IP, 11 pitches

4/11 - 1.0 IP, 13 pitches

4/9 - 1.0 IP, 16 pitches

 

That's 3.1 IP with 44 pitches over 1.5 weeks. Based on his averages from starts last season, if he made two starts over the same 1.5 weeks, we could have expected 10.2 IP with 168.4 pitches.

 

And he's better than Marquis and Dempster.

 

What on earth are they doing to him?

[Jon]

Marmol would really need to improve his pitch efficiency to be a good starting candidate. He's at 16.1 p/ip right now, which is the best in his career. However, that still isn't good enough to start. I'd love to see the move, but he has things to work on if he's going to last in the rotation.

He could certainly use to improve, but he only has 13 big league starts and, most importantly, only 78 starts outside of the majors in his entire life. That's nothing. And if he flipped with someone like Dempster or Marquis, the Cubs could have four long relievers in the bullpen.