More lineup changes coming?

[imb]

i really, really, really hate theriot.

 

but i hope he does well. no one is rooting for him to fail, and anyone who thinks that is off his/her/its rocker

[bring stone back]

i really, really, really hate theriot.

 

but i hope he does well. no one is rooting for him to fail, and anyone who thinks that is off his/her/its rocker

 

Beertown Cubbie just mentioned on page 2 of this thread he is actively rooting against Theriot. Every team (especially those in the NL) have a weakness - Theriot is ours. I'd rather see Theriot hit down further in the order, as well and if he struggles - Lou's track record suggests he'll do something about it.

 

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

[WilcoFan]

i really, really, really hate theriot.

 

but i hope he does well. no one is rooting for him to fail, and anyone who thinks that is off his/her/its rocker

 

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking.

 

I, for one, am actively rooting for Theriot to totally suck from the start.

 

Oh. Apparently, I was thinking of this.

[WilcoFan]

I can't stand how anybody who is unhappy with the shortstop situation is branded as a "Theriot hater". It makes me sick, actually.

 

That's not even close to what's going on, and you know it.

 

This argument is not worth having--it will only devolve into something similar to what went between you and wrigley23 in the Roberts thread, and that's a waste of time. I'm leaving it alone from here on out.

[17 Seconds]

I can't stand how anybody who is unhappy with the shortstop situation is branded as a "Theriot hater". It makes me sick, actually.

 

That's not even close to what's going on, and you know it.

 

Considering the fact that you accused me of wanting Theriot to fail and rooting against him, I think it's perfectly clear that is what is going on.

[17 Seconds]

i really, really, really hate theriot.

 

but i hope he does well. no one is rooting for him to fail, and anyone who thinks that is off his/her/its rocker

 

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking.

 

I, for one, am actively rooting for Theriot to totally suck from the start.

 

Oh. Apparently, I was thinking of this.

 

When the games actually start and Theriot is up at the plate in a meaningful game, I doubt that guy will actually be rooting against him. Not if he's a real fan at least.

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm rooting for Theriot to:

 

1. Pull 160 great games out of his backside and post a .360 OBP for the year, or

 

2. Suck so horribly in the first 3 weeks that they have to bench him or move him to 8th.

 

My allegiance is to the Cubs, as a team, not any player. I want the team to win and I want the best players on the field. Our chances of winning increase if Theriot gets on base at a good clip or if he has fewer PAs. So yes, in a way, I'm rooting for him to fail. I'd much rather he post that .360 OBP, but I think, of the 2 scenarios, that's much less likely.

[BigbadB]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

You really think so? Let's play "who looks like a better hitter game".

 

Player A: .300 .355 .469 .824

Player B: .271 .352 .337 .689

 

The numbers above are career minor league numbers, one guy who posted his numbers all the way to age 26, the other guy who posted them by the age of 22.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

BBB already showed that Theriot is worse, but even if he weren't, Pie's particular weakness in approach has a larger chance of getting exploited by hitting 8th. With his ability/potential, it doesn't make sense to put him there.

[javy knows my name]

I'm rooting for Theriot to:

 

1. Pull 160 great games out of his backside and post a .360 OBP for the year, or

 

2. Suck so horribly in the first 3 weeks that they have to bench him or move him to 8th.

 

My allegiance is to the Cubs, as a team, not any player. I want the team to win and I want the best players on the field. Our chances of winning increase if Theriot gets on base at a good clip or if he has fewer PAs. So yes, in a way, I'm rooting for him to fail. I'd much rather he post that .360 OBP, but I think, of the 2 scenarios, that's much less likely.

This is exactly right, and I thought I had made this clear. If Theriot duplicates his June or July (I can't remember which) of last year in April, we are in big trouble once he inevitably comes down to earth. We need him to perform like we all know he is going to perform early on in the season for the sake of our team. I'm not gonna boo the kid in the stands or anything. How is that radical or objectionable at all?

[bring stone back]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

You really think so? Let's play "who looks like a better hitter game".

 

Player A: .300 .355 .469 .824

Player B: .271 .352 .337 .689

 

The numbers above are career minor league numbers, one guy who posted his numbers all the way to age 26, the other guy who posted them by the age of 22.

 

That's great. Are the Cubs playing in the minor leagues this year?

 

I've seen Ryan Theriot have success at the plate in the major leagues. Granted, it was for about a month and a half but I've never seen Felix Pie do that.

 

As I've said in another post about this, Pie has more potential and upside long-term but if you were to ask me RIGHT NOW who the better hitter between the two it would be Theriot and it's not that close. By the All-Star break that may change but I'm not holding my breath. I could easily foresee a Cedeno type situation with Pie with fans wondering why this guy hits so well in the minors and when is he going to "figure it out" at the mlb level.

[bring stone back]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

BBB already showed that Theriot is worse, but even if he weren't, Pie's particular weakness in approach has a larger chance of getting exploited by hitting 8th. With his ability/potential, it doesn't make sense to put him there.

 

Pie's weakness will continue to be exploited until he figures out how to adjust. It really doesn't matter if Pie hits 1st, 2nd, 7th or 8th - pitchers are going to throw him sliders in and high fastballs and he'll continue to get himself out until he figures out how to lay off those pitches.

 

The scouting report from the opposing pitcher doesn't change just because he's hitting 7th as compared to 8th.

 

If/when he starts outhitting Theriot and he starts to suck, as many of you consider a foregone conclusion, then slot them accordingly. Until then, hit Pie in the 8 hole.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

BBB already showed that Theriot is worse, but even if he weren't, Pie's particular weakness in approach has a larger chance of getting exploited by hitting 8th. With his ability/potential, it doesn't make sense to put him there.

 

Pie's weakness will continue to be exploited until he figures out how to adjust. It really doesn't matter if Pie hits 1st, 2nd, 7th or 8th - pitchers are going to throw him sliders in and high fastballs and he'll continue to get himself out until he figures out how to lay off those pitches.

 

The scouting report from the opposing pitcher doesn't change just because he's hitting 7th as compared to 8th.

 

If/when he starts outhitting Theriot and he starts to suck, as many of you consider a foregone conclusion, then slot them accordingly. Until then, hit Pie in the 8 hole.

 

The 8th spot is the one spot in the order where there can be a significant difference in how you're pitched, because there's an automatic out behind him(whereas there's varying degrees of danger in the other spots). I'm not saying Pie is going to OPS 900 in the 7 spot and 600 in the 8 spot, but when you have a chance to shield someone as talented as Pie because there is a hitter as bad as Theriot to hit 8th instead of Pie, it's a relative no brainer to do it.

[davearm2]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

BBB already showed that Theriot is worse, but even if he weren't, Pie's particular weakness in approach has a larger chance of getting exploited by hitting 8th. With his ability/potential, it doesn't make sense to put him there.

 

Pie's weakness will continue to be exploited until he figures out how to adjust. It really doesn't matter if Pie hits 1st, 2nd, 7th or 8th - pitchers are going to throw him sliders in and high fastballs and he'll continue to get himself out until he figures out how to lay off those pitches.

 

The scouting report from the opposing pitcher doesn't change just because he's hitting 7th as compared to 8th.

 

If/when he starts outhitting Theriot and he starts to suck, as many of you consider a foregone conclusion, then slot them accordingly. Until then, hit Pie in the 8 hole.

 

The 8th spot is the one spot in the order where there can be a significant difference in how you're pitched, because there's an automatic out behind him(whereas there's varying degrees of danger in the other spots). I'm not saying Pie is going to OPS 900 in the 7 spot and 600 in the 8 spot, but when you have a chance to shield someone as talented as Pie because there is a hitter as bad as Theriot to hit 8th instead of Pie, it's a relative no brainer to do it.

Seems to me that if Theriot is so bad, then having Pie bat 7th and Theriot 8th creates the same problem as having Pie bat 8th.

 

Quite a Catch-22.

[Tracer Bullet]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

BBB already showed that Theriot is worse, but even if he weren't, Pie's particular weakness in approach has a larger chance of getting exploited by hitting 8th. With his ability/potential, it doesn't make sense to put him there.

 

Pie's weakness will continue to be exploited until he figures out how to adjust. It really doesn't matter if Pie hits 1st, 2nd, 7th or 8th - pitchers are going to throw him sliders in and high fastballs and he'll continue to get himself out until he figures out how to lay off those pitches.

 

The scouting report from the opposing pitcher doesn't change just because he's hitting 7th as compared to 8th.

 

If/when he starts outhitting Theriot and he starts to suck, as many of you consider a foregone conclusion, then slot them accordingly. Until then, hit Pie in the 8 hole.

 

The 8th spot is the one spot in the order where there can be a significant difference in how you're pitched, because there's an automatic out behind him(whereas there's varying degrees of danger in the other spots). I'm not saying Pie is going to OPS 900 in the 7 spot and 600 in the 8 spot, but when you have a chance to shield someone as talented as Pie because there is a hitter as bad as Theriot to hit 8th instead of Pie, it's a relative no brainer to do it.

Seems to me that if Theriot is so bad, then having Pie bat 7th and Theriot 8th creates the same problem as having Pie bat 8th.

 

Quite a Catch-22.

 

Theriot is really bad, but he's still not at pitcher-level.

[C.C.]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

BBB already showed that Theriot is worse, but even if he weren't, Pie's particular weakness in approach has a larger chance of getting exploited by hitting 8th. With his ability/potential, it doesn't make sense to put him there.

 

Pie's weakness will continue to be exploited until he figures out how to adjust. It really doesn't matter if Pie hits 1st, 2nd, 7th or 8th - pitchers are going to throw him sliders in and high fastballs and he'll continue to get himself out until he figures out how to lay off those pitches.

 

The scouting report from the opposing pitcher doesn't change just because he's hitting 7th as compared to 8th.

 

If/when he starts outhitting Theriot and he starts to suck, as many of you consider a foregone conclusion, then slot them accordingly. Until then, hit Pie in the 8 hole.

 

The 8th spot is the one spot in the order where there can be a significant difference in how you're pitched, because there's an automatic out behind him(whereas there's varying degrees of danger in the other spots). I'm not saying Pie is going to OPS 900 in the 7 spot and 600 in the 8 spot, but when you have a chance to shield someone as talented as Pie because there is a hitter as bad as Theriot to hit 8th instead of Pie, it's a relative no brainer to do it.

Seems to me that if Theriot is so bad, then having Pie bat 7th and Theriot 8th creates the same problem as having Pie bat 8th.

 

Quite a Catch-22.

 

Theriot is really bad, but he's still not at pitcher-level.

 

Depends which pitcher.

[TruffleShuffle]

Seems to me that if Theriot is so bad, then having Pie bat 7th and Theriot 8th creates the same problem as having Pie bat 8th.

 

Quite a Catch-22.

 

not really. they're different hitters. theriot has better plate discipline than pie and is less likely to be exploited by pitchers who are nibbling and throwing a lot of breaking balls to the #8 hitter. at this stage of his career, pie could really use someone behind him who is at least some threat to get hits.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Theriot is really bad, but he's still not at pitcher-level.

 

Exactly. Also, Theriot's "hack at every strike to get singles" approach is less likely to be affected by having an auto out behind him. And by auto-out I mean the .374 OPS, yes OPS, that Cub pitchers put up last year, not the replacement level production of a middle infielder.

[davearm2]

I still think Theriot is a better hitter than Pie, however and I don't know why people are so outraged where Pie hits. He's the worst hitter on the team and will/should hit 8th.

 

BBB already showed that Theriot is worse, but even if he weren't, Pie's particular weakness in approach has a larger chance of getting exploited by hitting 8th. With his ability/potential, it doesn't make sense to put him there.

 

Pie's weakness will continue to be exploited until he figures out how to adjust. It really doesn't matter if Pie hits 1st, 2nd, 7th or 8th - pitchers are going to throw him sliders in and high fastballs and he'll continue to get himself out until he figures out how to lay off those pitches.

 

The scouting report from the opposing pitcher doesn't change just because he's hitting 7th as compared to 8th.

 

If/when he starts outhitting Theriot and he starts to suck, as many of you consider a foregone conclusion, then slot them accordingly. Until then, hit Pie in the 8 hole.

 

The 8th spot is the one spot in the order where there can be a significant difference in how you're pitched, because there's an automatic out behind him(whereas there's varying degrees of danger in the other spots). I'm not saying Pie is going to OPS 900 in the 7 spot and 600 in the 8 spot, but when you have a chance to shield someone as talented as Pie because there is a hitter as bad as Theriot to hit 8th instead of Pie, it's a relative no brainer to do it.

Seems to me that if Theriot is so bad, then having Pie bat 7th and Theriot 8th creates the same problem as having Pie bat 8th.

 

Quite a Catch-22.

 

Theriot is really bad, but he's still not at pitcher-level.

Hanging around here, sometimes it's hard to tell.

 

Regardless, Theriot being ondeck is not going to force pitchers to throw Pie fat fastballs, either. In fact other teams should be expected to pitch Pie the same way with Theriot coming up next as they would with the pitcher coming up next.

 

The bolded above is really onpoint. If Pie is susceptible to getting himself out by expanding the zone, then the only thing that will prevent that from happening is if there are serious consequences waiting in the ondeck circle if a BB is issued. Theriot certainly ain't a serious consequence, especially if he's truly as bad as everyone is making him out to be.

[Rob]

Ryan Theriot has no business batting anywhere in the top seven spots of the lineup. Beyond that, I don't really care if Lou bats him eighth or ninth.

 

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary. Since we are operating under that assumption, it makes perfect sense to root for him to stumble out of the starting gate. If it looks like a problem from the outset, we are much more likely to attempt to fix the problem... rather than if he started off decently and slumped horribly in mid-august through the end of september.

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/T/Ryan-Theriot.shtml

 

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/Felix-Pie.shtml

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

[TruffleShuffle]

Hanging around here, sometimes it's hard to tell.

 

Regardless, Theriot being ondeck is not going to force pitchers to throw Pie fat fastballs, either. In fact other teams should be expected to pitch Pie the same way with Theriot coming up next as they would with the pitcher coming up next.

 

The bolded above is really onpoint. If Pie is susceptible to getting himself out by expanding the zone, then the only thing that will prevent that from happening is if there are serious consequences waiting in the ondeck circle if a BB is issued. Theriot certainly ain't a serious consequence, especially if he's truly as bad as everyone is making him out to be.

 

Theriot is a way, way better hitter than most pitchers. He gets on base a third of the time and can't be considered an easy out or any easy strikeout. Having Theriot bat behind you is very different than having Rich Hill or Ted Lilly bat behind you.

[RynoRules]

for something that doesn't make a big difference in terms of run production, people sure do care about who's batting where.

 

Give this man a prize.

 

I used to post stuff about a lineup choices in the old days (circa 04' and 05') and get shouted down about how it does not matter where people bat so long as they get on base. Some of you need to take your own advice.

[rawaction]

for something that doesn't make a big difference in terms of run production, people sure do care about who's batting where.

 

Give this man a prize.

 

I used to post stuff about a lineup choices in the old days (circa 04' and 05') and get shouted down about how it does not matter where people bat so long as they get on base. Some of you need to take your own advice.

 

It's not about the order. It's about Theriot at #1 in the lineup getting more plate appearances than anyone else over the course of the season and likely being the least productive player. He'd also project to get 60-80 more than Lee and Ramirez at 4-5.

[bring stone back]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

[Derwood]

At any rate, we need to be operating under the assumption that Ryan Theriot is going to be horrible... because he's done absolutely nothing in his entire career to suggest anything to the contrary.

 

If anybody thinks that Theriot is even half the hitter that Pie is right now, they need to pay a lot more attention to what minor league stats mean. (Hint, they are very instructive)

 

While Felix Pie has really crushed the ball in the major leagues, right? So I guess it's safe to assume he'll be horrible, too?

 

As I said in another post, when the Chicago Cubs start playing the Omaha Royals - let me know. Cedeno raked in the minor leagues - why isn't he starting in front of Theriot? His minor league stats suggest he should...

 

Pie is 23 years old and Theriot is 28